UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #029
SCOTT M. CUTLIP

CUTLIP, Scott M.  (1915-2000)
Graduate Student; Professor of Journalism; Public Relations Officer
At UW: 1939-41; 1946-75

First Interview		
Interviewed: 1975	
Length: 2 hours, 35 minutes	
Transcript: 46 pages
Interviewer: Donna Taylor
Indexed (time code) by: Elaine Ayers
 
	Education; Reorganizing news service; Origin of Bucky Badger symbol; University plaque; Fight for library; E. B. Fred and other administrators; School of Journalism; Mass Communications Center; State Historical Society; Military public relations program; History of Philanthropy project; Reasons for leaving UW.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1997			    Length: 30 min.
Interviewer: Steven Vaughn

Background; Education; History of Journalism School; Ralph Nafzinger.
			
FIRST INTERVIEW (1975)

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:01	Came back here in 1946.  Became assistant professor in Journalism.  First came as a graduate student in 1939.  Undergraduate work at Syracuse, where he was friend and student of Fred Merwin, who encouraged him to come here and study under John Gaus.  Best advice ever received in his life.

00:01:31	Chose Wisconsin over Northwestern.  Under Gaus, SC's whole intellectual life exploded.

00:02:15	Cut short graduate work in 1941 due to war and SC's accumulated debts.  Took a job for a year with Virginia State Road Commission.  Then he entered service.  As war came to end, SC received a letter from Professor Van Hise, Director of School of Journalism.  Asked SC to come back to Wisconsin to teach.  He decided yes.

00:03:51	School of Journalism faculty reduced during war.  In summer of 1946, Professor Robert Neal at University of Missouri wanted SC to teach there.  SC negotiated with Dean Ingraham to help strengthen Wisconsin by offering a position to Henry Glad Smith and to reduce School of Journalism teaching load to eight hours.

00:05:08	Early in 1947, President Fred concerned about renewing public confidence in University.  University of Wisconsin and University of Missouri were chosen by armed services to educate their officers in public relations.  One of first three was Ted Clifton.  He was in SC's seminar when SC asked Andrew Hopkins to speak.  Speaks of Clifton's role in renewing public support in armed services in late '50's and early '60's.

00:09:07	Clifton drafted centennial plan, taking steps to improve damaged relationships with state's press.  SC asked to take charge of University's public relations at least for centennial year.  Wanted him to take charge in May.  Planning to marry May 21, day after classes.  Came back after honeymoon and taught during summer, 1947.  Talks about incident where pharmacy student died, and President Fred had trouble with press.

00:12:17	Fred dissatisfied with work of Robert Foss, Director of News Service.  SC named as Fred's Assistant for Public Relations.  Given two assignments: reorganize University's public relations set-up; and organize publicity program for the centennial.  This was for 1948-49.  Fred's contributions, his deeper purposes.

00:15:10	SC remained a member of journalism department while working with Fred.  Named associate professor.

00:16:15	SC talks about President Birge's dissatisfaction with new budget.  SC coordinated dissemination of information from University.  Reduced number of offices issuing releases; reorganization of University news service, sports news service, and agriculture/home economics news service.

00:17:40	Discusses Andrew Hopkins.  Talks about Arthur Lynch's creation of Bucky Badger and need for it.  Talks about Williamson, new head football coach after '48 season.

00:21:29	SC started looking for candidates for new News Service.  Selected Bob Taylor as his own assistant.  Taylor later became director. 

00:22:26	Recruited Clay Schoenfeld for centennial publicity working with Professor Kiekhofer.  Two projects SC and Schoenfeld abandoned: a radio series dramatizing accomplishments of University; and making movie.  Kiekhofer insistent on having these reviewed by his committee.  Reason for abandonment of projects. 

00:24:28	To reestablish rapport with press, set up series of fall conferences, one for weekly newspaper editors, one for daily newspaper editors, and one for radio management.  Weekly and daily editors did not want to meet together. Fall newspaper conferences are still going.

00:27:48	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2 

00:27:52	Refers to Fred as "ablest" President.  Speaks of their working relationship, difficulties and pleasures.  SC wrote Fred's speeches, talks about difficulties in tailoring them, usually going through about seven drafts. 

00:32:00	President Fred dreaded controversy.  Never liked entertaining, which is one reason he never moved in President's House.   He was mindful of its cost.  Never enjoyed public spotlight.  Greatly enjoyed politics off public stage. 

00:33:12	Baldwin said that for years, Fred ran the American Bacteriological Society, but most uncomfortable year Fred had was that when he was president.  

00:34:14	SC publicized that Fred had a Confederate flag.  Problems with Sons of the G.A.R.  Floyd Andre, Fred's choice for dean of agriculture, accepted deanship at Iowa after turned down here by Regents. 

00:35:34	Lost only two battles with Board of Regents; Andre appointment and program for state scholarships.  Different Board of Regents.  SC states, "A president has to have two bases of power: regents and faculty." 

00:37:54	Fred called on errors of parliamentary procedure. Ingraham, at times, at suggestion of Fred, edited SC's speeches for Fred. 

00:39:33	Fred had every known fact about University written on stack of index cards, enabling him to converse about University wherever he went.  Fred insecure in many ways.  Needed a manuscript whenever he spoke publicly.  SC speaks of Fred's "hours."  William Sorrels left partially because of Fred's demands on Sorrels' time. 

00:42:45	SC talks about giving up New Year's Day to work for Fred, who said, "Down in my part of Virginia, a man who won't work on New Year's isn't much account."  Good natured banter between two over merits of Virginia vs. West Virginia. SC reminded him once that, "West Virginia had given Confederacy its best general, Traveler, the horse," whom his uncle had raised. 

00:44:14	Fred never took into account other people's family lives. Had nothing but his work and, perhaps, a garden. 

00:45:34	Frank Sensenbrenner, aided and abetted by Fayette Elwell, was determined to kill School for Workers, a group that trained union officials to be able and articulate demanding fringe benefits from management. 

00:46:23	Fred worked quietly with Witte and Feinsinger, and they came up with a protective shelter for School for Workers in Center for Industrial Relations, housing both Business Management Institute and School for Workers.

00:47:13	President Fred's main accomplishments.  One, reestablished confidence in and support for University of Wisconsin.  Two, maintained University academic freedom during McCarthy years. 

00:48:50	SC staged dedication of Freedom Plaque.  Rededicated on February 15, 1957. 

00:49:34	Plaque stolen.  Found it and rededicated it on Fred's anniversary in office, February 15.  Embedded behind plaque, there is a history capsule of plaque.

00:53:34	End of side.  End of tape.

End of Mp3 File

Tape 2/Side 1  

00:00:40	W.J. Campbell, a conservative regent, decided University needed loyalty oath.  Sent Campbell to ask Dean Middleton, who discouraged him. 

00:02:21	Fight to get Memorial Library.  Mark Ingraham helped sell plans for library to faculty, included proceeding with engineering school construction and postponing work on library. 

00:04:49	Appropriation for Memorial library defeated in next legislature.  Fred fought to restore this appropriation.  Regents not helpful, but Sorenson, Curreri, and Walsh were.  State Chamber of Commerce opposed appropriation, saying it would mean new taxes.  Alumni Association wasn't helpful. 

00:06:29	SC's job to talk to Berge, Director of Alumni Association, who gave no help.  Stanley Allen, President of National Cash Register, did help.  Turned over his public relations staff to University to prepare booklet stating case for library.  Allen printed it. 

00:08:11	Senator Laird accused Fred of using taxpayer money.  Untrue.  Shakes got senator from Marinette to change his vote.  Fred began to plug away at legislators personally.  Very effective. 

00:10:30	Fred and Oscar Rennebohm and Bill Young were prime movers in getting that library appropriation.  SC, Roy Luberg, Tony Curreri, John Walsh, Sorenson, and Clay Schoenfeld were helpers. Library fight was really a turn-around for Fred's administration. 

00:11:22	Almost had library in 1927, until someone attached a rider to appropriation to name it La Follette Memorial Library.  Now named Memorial Library, after veterans of World War II.

00:11:51	SC's two years spent working under Fred were difficult ones because he was convinced that School of Journalism had declined.  Fred had become convinced that new leadership was required to rebuild school.  Grant Hyde, Director of School of Journalism and Willard Bleyer pioneered School of Journalism and built strong school with national reputation.  Journalism education in first generation was dominated by two men.  Walter Williams of Missouri and Willard Bleyer.  Bleyer took scholarly research approach to journalism education.  By 1935, soundness of Bleyer approach had been generally recognized.  Bleyer built a very strong School of Journalism by 1935. Bleyer died in 1935 

00:14:13	Grant Hyde, Bleyer's assistant, was made director. This led to departure of professors R. Nafziger, K. Olson and others.  From 1935 to 1947 school declined in quality but maintained national reputation.  SC responsible for bringing Henry Ladd Smith back in an effort to strengthen journalism school.  Finally reached conclusion that Hyde had to be replaced. 

00:16:20	Dean Ingraham slow to accept fact that Hyde should be replaced.  Struggle continued for two years.  When Hyde brought in a proposal for a sports writer, battle for new leadership crystallized.  This was defeated.  Hyde then took it to Executive Committee for approval.  During this time, a student wrote a stinging letter to editor of Cardinal attacking School of Journalism.  This along with growing opposition of newspapermen in state forced Fred to realize that a change was necessary.  Ralph Nafziger was logical choice. 

00:19:25	SC persuaded Nafziger to return.  Nafziger returned to undertake task of rebuilding School of Journalism; brought it to forefront by early 1960's.  In 1948 Hyde was persuaded to resign.  Hank Smith appointed interim director.  Efforts to negotiate with Nafziger to have him return complicated by premature publicity. 

00:21:36	How SC's activities as assistant to Fred compared with those of LeRoy E. Luberg who was also assistant to Fred.  SC was assistant for public relations.  Primary job was to promote centennial observance and reorganizing information services on campus. 

00:23:34	Fred decided to move Baldwin up as Vice President.  SC and Luberg reported to Baldwin.  SC explains how Fred delegated authority and utilized his hand-picked staff.  Luberg operated more in student area than SC; eventually became Dean of Students. 

00:26:00	SC explains why he returned to full time teaching.  One of Nafziger's conditions upon his return was that SC return to full time teaching.  SC not happy with his career in administration and anxious to help with getting school back on track.  Returned to teaching in fall of 1949.  Recruited more faculty and tried  to get research program going. 

00:27:15	SC contacted by Cliff Lord, Director of State Historical Society.  They discussed mass communication media as a twentieth century development.  Papers of most of pioneers still outside archives and available.  Further conferences held.  Result was Mass Communication History Center.  SC participated in creation and development of center.

00:28:27	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

00:28:30	Set out to get papers of pioneers, especially those connected with Wisconsin.  Successful in getting papers of Louis P. Lochner (Pulitzer prize winner), Marquis Childs, and others.  Also papers of public relations pioneers such as William Baldwin, Arthur Page and John Hill.  Obtaining these papers most difficult for SC.

00:30:11	Kahlenberg papers. Member of State Historical Society, elected president--served 1964 to 1967. Discusses accomplishments while serving on board. Discusses Frederic Sammond's accomplishments. State Historical Society was outstanding among historical societies in nation.

00:33:17	SC's decision to leave university.  Discusses previous offers which he declined and reasons for.  Accepting University of Georgia offer.  Discouraged by situation in School of Journalism at UW.  Increasing enrollment and decreasing support for staff and supplies.  Journalism one of three major growth areas in higher education.  Governor Lucey's budget cuts and their affect on university and School of Journalism.  SC's final semester at UW.  Move to University of Georgia viewed as challenging and opportunity to build a strong school of journalism at University of Georgia.

00:42:03	Governor Lucey's policies and connection with University.  Discusses merger.  Comparison of salaries of Madison faculty with those in state system contributes to erosion of Wisconsin's salary position vis a vis strong universities of nation.  Vernon Stone, former member of UW staff--School of Journalism, also, now at University of Georgia.

00:45:11	Strong hand of central administration in governing Madison campus.  Pressures result with regard to basis for allocating resources.  During merger debate autonomy promised for Madison campus but not achieved.

00:47:56	Governor Lucey, fiscal conservative--sees need to control growth of higher education in Wisconsin.  SC feels merger was not wise move.

00:49:45	Possibility of closing two-year centers discussed.  Feels higher education in Wisconsin over-extended due to expansionist educational politicians Eugene McPhee and Fred H. Harrington.  Harrington role in developing Green Bay and Parkside campuses to offset McPhee's growing political strength.  More about two-year centers and their development.

00:52:25	Budget cuts affected study of journalism at time of rising enrollment. 

00:52:41	Discernible evidence that merger has hurt UW campus more than helped it.

00:53:22	Talks about military education program which SC directed 1946 to 1974.  Arthur Page asked to make study of how military could improve its public relationships in postwar era.  Memorandum Page wrote to Henry Stimson and Chief of Staff Dwight Eisenhower.  General Eisenhower, acting on Page's recommendation instituted graduate program for army officers to study public relations.  Two institutions selected--University of Missouri, School of Journalism and UW School of Journalism.  First officers assigned to UW in 1946. 

00:55:30	End of side.  End of tape.

End of Mp3 File

Tape 3/Side 1  

00:00:01	First three officers assigned to military program, summer of 1946, were Lt. Col. Chester Victor Clifton, Capt. Kenneth Stark and Lt. Col Kenneth Lay.  From 1946 to 1974 150 master's degrees earned at UW School of Journalism under SC's direction.  Hard times for army during Eisenhower presidency.  General Maxwell Taylor, Chief of Staff, brought Ted Clifton back from Europe to aid in army's public relations.  Army summer course, 1959.  Eight week course. Professor Douglas Jones conducted course in summer of 1975.  

00:03:33	Public Relations Society of America Institute started by SC in 1959, with help from Hale Nelson, Illinois Bell Telephone Company executive.  

00:04:46	Navy and air force officers started coming to UW in recent years for graduate program.

00:05:40	SC involved in history of philanthropy project along with Merle Curti.  Grew out of conference at Princeton.  Funded by grant from Ford Foundation.  Irv Wyllie, Director.  SC worked on project from 1960 to 1964 and wrote The History of Fund Raising in the United States, Its Role in American Philanthropy.  More about interest in this project.  

00:08:46	SC describes himself as frustrated historian.  

00:09:28	Talks about fund raising.  News media and fund raising drives.  Public not given adequate information by news media to judge merit of fund raising appeal.  Disabled Veterans example of operating on edge of fraud legitimately.  Fund raising expensive and wasteful, unable to legislate spending.  SC feels there should be federal regulation, thus more information and public could judge merit of appeal, i.e., The National Foundation and March of Dimes.  Carl Byoir one of nation's public relations pioneers and founder of March of Dimes.  Fund raising for infantile paralysis and President Roosevelt.  Fund raising in Wisconsin.  Legislation of more rigid reporting advocated by Virginia Hart.  Need for state regulation.  New York state and city of Los Angeles of tight regulation.  

00:17:45	End of side.  End of tape.

End of Mp3 File

SECOND INTERVIEW (1997)

Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:19	SC was born and West Virginia.  He was raised by his great-grandmother who taught him to read before he started school.

00:04:25	SC declares that his career was shaped by working on his high school newspaper.  He discusses his first professional newspaper job.  SC discusses how he ended up attending Syracuse University.

00:07:45	He describes some influential elementary school teachers.  SC describes some of his high school activities including athletics and part time employment.  He discusses his first job in public relations.

00:14:00	SC explains why he chose to pursue a Ph. D. at UW.  He discusses the faculty of the School of Journalism including Selig Perlman and Edwin Witte.  SC describes some of the courses he took at UW.

00:22:07	He wrote a master’s thesis on Cooperative Extension.

00:25:13	SC outlines the history of the School of Journalism. He describes his relationship with Ralph Nafziger.

00:28:13	SC graduated in 1941 and took a job in public relations for the road commission of the state of West Virginia.

00:30:21	End of side.  End of tape.  

END