UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #511
SMITH, CLAYTON

SMITH, Clayton (1932- )
Undergraduate Student; Special Assistant to Dean of College of Engineering; Associate Dean of Engineering Experiment Station; Assistant Dean for Research, College of Engineering
At UW: 1960-1995
Interviewed: 1997	
Series: College of Engineering
Interviewers: Barry Teicher and Paul Morledge
Length: 03:58:17
Indexed by: Rebecca Rodriguez

Abstract: Clayton Smith talks about his early education and work with Eastman -Kodak Company. He discusses his decision to move to Madison and his decision to stay in Madison where he attended school and worked as Assistant Dean and Associate Dean at the College of Engineering for over thirty years. He discusses the various deans with whom he worked, the research projects in which he took part, his involvement in departmental changes and expansions, and lobbying and research funding.
	Keywords: College of Engineering, solar energy, Kodak, research, lobbying, research funding.

First Interview Session (September 8, 1997): Tapes 1-2

Tape 1

00:00:17	Question: Let's begin with a brief description of your childhood and your early years of schooling. Answer: CS was born during the Great Depression in the hill country of upstate New York.  CS's father was an electrician trained in Washington D.C.

00:01:32	No question: In 1937, at the height of the Depression, CS's father was hired by Eastman Kodak Company in Rochester, NY.  His family moved to Rochester and CS lived there until he came to Wisconsin in 1960.

00:02:00	No question: CS's ancestors were notables in early US history.  They included the Wolcott family from Connecticut and the Langdon family, after which Langdon Street in Madison was named.  Samuel Langdon gave the battle prayer at Bunker Hill and was the sixth president of Harvard University.

00:03:23	No question: CS talks about the value of the oral history tradition in his family.  He then discusses his parents’ education.

00:04:13	Question: What level of schooling did your parents obtain? Answer: CS describes his parents education and his early schooling in and just outside Rochester.  He discusses Paul Springer, the vice-principal of Edison Tech, the high school CS attended.  Springer helped CS secure a position for CS at Eastman-Kodak Company.

00:09:50	Question: When you graduated from high school and you took that job, what were you thinking in terms of career? Answer: CS talks about his early career aspirations.

00:11:31	Question: What was Kodak doing back then? Answer: CS describes Kodak and its products during the time he was working for them, and he mentions Rochester's other strong industries like Xerox.

00:12:26	Question: What did you do at Kodak? Answer: CS's describes his assignments in the engineering planning division at Kodak, and he compares his work at Kodak to his future work for the UW College of Engineering.

00:13:41	Question: At what point did you decide to attend night school at University of Rochester? Answer: CS's talks about his attending night school at the University of Rochester, and the state of higher public education in New York at that time.  He talks about discovering his academic interest in management and his mentors at Kodak, whom he calls his "Kodak fathers."

00:18:40	Question: In the early 60's Madison enters the picture, why don't you talk about how that came about? Answer: CS talks about his correspondence schooling through the UW Extension, his decision to take a leave of absence from Kodak and finish up his bachelor's degree at UW, and his move to Madison. He also mentions his Madison contact, Bruce Davidson, who paved the way for meeting  Bob Marshall, then dean of UW COE.

00:21:27	Question: Talk about some of your courses and professors that may have played a significant role in your development. Answer: CS discusses UW chemistry professor M. L. Holt, a man who “imparted some understanding" to him.  CS comments on the role his age and financial situation played in cutting short his career as a UW engineering student.  CS uses one of his economics courses at UW to illustrate his thoughts on academic theory verses real-life experience.

00:26:21	Question: You were here originally for a year and your plans were to return to Kodak, how did those plans get changed? Answer: CS comments on his decision to not return to Kodak following his bout with pneumonia.  He describes Kurt Wendt's sage advice to reduce his workload at UW.  Soon thereafter, Jack Duffie, director of the UW Solar Energy Lab (SEL), asked CS to manage the lab while he was away on a Fulbright Scholarship.

00:29:43	Question: Give us a little bit of a background on the development of the lab. Answer: CS discusses Farrington Daniels and his role in beginning the UW SEL.

00:31:10	Break in recording.

00:31:41 	No question: CS discusses the UW COE becoming the "administrative home" for the Solar Energy Lab. Dean Robert Marshall pursued  Jack Duffie, a former UW COE Ph. D., to head the SEL.  CS talks about how differently Daniels, Marshall and Duffie approached research.

00:33:47	Question: Did Farrington actually go to developing countries and work in the field? Where did he go? Answer: Farrington Daniels traveled to developing countries, like India and various places in South America, to promote solar energy and garner further funding for the SEL.

00:34:25	No question: CS discusses Farrington Daniels' positive personality and work ethic, and his influence on CS.

00:35:40	Question: Could you go into your research very briefly? Answer: CS discusses his undergraduate research project at the SEL, which looked at the availability of solar energy around the world at given times of day.  He also mentions the data collection methods he used and the ultimate success of his project.

00:38:05	Question: How long did you continue to work at the lab and what were your responsibilities? Answer: CS describes his administrative duties at the SEL and at the Engineering Experiment Station.

00: 39:00	Question: What was Jack Duffie doing with his research? Answer: CS talks about Jack Duffie's work at the SEL, which dealt with computer analysis of solar energy systems. He also discusses the change in emphasis at the SEL from "doing everything" to designing engineering models for the design of solar systems.

00:40:08	No question: CS briefly discusses the volatile economics of solar energy in the 1960s and '70s.

00:40:43	Question: Was UW a major center for solar research? At its peak how many people did it employee, what facilities did it have? Answer: CS talks about the infrastructure of the SEL and its research work force.  He talks about the growing need at the time for the Engineering Research Building and the SEL's need for space.  CS mentions the visionary abilities of UW COE deans in anticipating program needs.

00:43:05	Question: It seems like engineering was always kind of scattered around,  was that part of the reason for bringing together engineering research? Answer: CS discusses the brief history of the Engineering Experiment Station (EES) and the EES's value in offering the faculty alternative research resources and technical support.

00:47:04	Question: How involved was the Engineering Experiment Station in the planning of the Engineering Research Building? Answer: CS discusses the proposal for the Engineering Research Building (ERB) and the "selling" of the ERB proposal by deans Wendt and Marshall. He also talks about the inherent complexities of funding a project like the ERB.

00:48:41	No question: CS comments on Dean Wendt's amazing administrative abilities in the context of building the ERB.

00:50:26	Question: What was your role in the undertaking? Answer: CS discusses his role as coordinator for the ERB proposal and the various aspects of this proposal.  He emphasizes the importance of someone in his former position being able to adapt to the changing requirements of federal funding agencies.

00:54:41	Question: You were in charge of this space, was that a problem? Answer: CS talks about the intricacies of doling out space in the ERB to various researchers and other UW departments.

00:57:36	Question: During the late 60's early 70's were you working with national funding agencies much at that point? Answer: CS discusses the nature of working with federal funding agencies like the NSF, NASA and the Department of Defense during the anti-Vietnam student protest movements.  He also mentions how funding regulations, like affirmative action, became much more stringent after the Vietnam War.

01:01:47	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2

01:01:58	Question: During the course of your years in the college of engineering, you were involved in many different projects and programs, let's discuss some of them. Answer: CS briefly discusses the history and purpose behind the UW COE's Engine Research Center (ERC).  CS also talks about the ERC's director, Phillip Myers.  Myers was the first academic to be elected president of the Society for Automobile Engineers.

01:04:10	No question: CS describes the change in emphasis at engineering research in the immediate post-Sputnik era and how this created a conflict for programs like the ERC which emphasized applied research. During this period, the NSF wanted to support more pure science, not applied research.

01:05:14	No question: CS speaks about the US Department of Defense's "University Research Initiative Program" in 1985, which supported interdisciplinary research at top universities. CS mentions J. Keyworth, who, at this time, was Reagan's principal science advisor.  CS met with Keyworth in a "broker" role and procured guaranteed funding for the ERC for five years.  CS elaborates about the positive impact this guaranteed funding had on student recruitment and the reputation of the UW COE.

01:12:40	Question: [indistinct]... getting it known as a National Center for Excellence? Answer: CS briefly mentions his role in getting the ERC recognized as a "National Center for Excellence in Propulsion Technology." CS gives a breakdown of funding sources for a program like the ERC.

01:15:05	No question: CS talks about his present role as consultant to the UW COE and his help in preparing the ERC for its next funding cycle in 1999.  CS is working on forming an interdisciplinary team with both UW engineers and biologists helping to procure funds for the study of engine emissions.

01:18:46	Question: What role did the congressman play in [the Center for Excellence]? Answer: CS discusses the effectiveness of Wisconsin Congressman Les Aspin, who was Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, in getting federal support for the UW COE.  He also mentions the "Aspin Procurement Institute," which was set up to help Wisconsin businesses compete more favorably for federal funds.

01:21:47	Question: Is the Aspin Procurement Institute still around? Answer: CS speaks briefly about the "Wisconsin Procurement Institute," formerly the "Aspin Procurement Institute," and how it is still helping Wisconsin businesses procure federal funds.

01:22:24	Question: You worked closely with John Wiley to create the interdisciplinary program for Materials Science. Could you talk briefly about this program and discuss your role in it? Answer: CS speaks about starting the interdisciplinary program for Materials Science Program. He also discusses more generally the challenges of bringing faculty together for interdisciplinary research programs.

01:23:31	No question: CS was the self-proclaimed "patron" of the Materials Science Program.  He nurtured and cared for it more than he had any other COE program.

01:26:55  	No question: CS speaks about what made John Wiley so successful as head of the Materials Science Program.  Part of Wiley’s success, CS claims, was because of his ability to maintain good relations with his colleagues and to subvert his ego in all decision making.

01:29:02	Question: Has that program continued to be successful? Answer: CS describes the Materials Science Center as a rich compendium of engineers, physicists and chemists.

01:30:15	Question: Isn't interdisciplinary studies a key focus? Answer: CS emphasizes the importance of interdisciplinary research.

01:31:00	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

01:31:03	Question: Could you discuss the SMES program? Answer: CS mentions Roger Boom and the Instrumentation Systems Center (ISC) as  prelude to the  Superconductive Magnetic Energy Storage (SMES) program.  CS talks about  the recruitment of Norm Houston  and Boom from Atomics International in California.  Houston and Boom were two capable researchers who made the rare transition from industry to academics.

01:33:30	No question: CS describes Boom's growing research interest in large superconductive magnets, and Boom's and Harold Peterson's ideas behind the utility of superconductive magnetic energy storage.

01:36:31	No question: CS speaks about Peterson's specific research contributions to the SMES project, which involved a method of AC-DC conversion from the storage system.  WARF helped acquire a patent for this method.

01:38:16	No question: CS discusses the federal agency 'turf wars' in providing funding for building a SMES prototype.

01:40:26	No question: CS notes that Congressman Les Aspin was one who pushed for funding of the SMES, especially as it might be used in the "Star Wars" defense initiative.  The Department of Defense and Madison Gas & Electric were to back a prototype at the former munitions plant in Baraboo.  The SMES program, CS notes, was ultimately axed.

01:47:03	Question: Do you see a chance of that ever being resurrected? Answer: CS mentions the possibility that the SMES program might be resurrected.  He talks about the advantages of the SMES in terms of providing immediate surplus power.

01:48:31	Question: Could you discuss your work in the Wisconsin Plasma Processing and Technology Research Consortium? Answer: CS briefly discusses the origins of the Wisconsin Plasma Processing & Technology Research Consortium and its director Leon Shohet, and the series of federal funding proposals he and Shohet made for the consortium in the mid-'80s.

01:52:54	CS describes Shohet as extremely bright and ambitious.  Many of his colleagues found him difficult to work with, however.  CS felt he and Shohet had a unique chemistry that allowed them to work well together though.

01:54:23	End of interview session.

Second Interview Session (September 15, 1997): Tapes 3-4

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:00	Question: Could you talk a little bit about the fusion research program and about the nature of your involvement in it? Answer: CS describes how the UW Fusion Research Program got its impetus from UW physics professor Donald Kerst.  The Fusion Research Program was costly since it relied more on faculty labor verses programs that relied more on graduate student help.

00:04:12 	No question: CS talks about Leon Shohet's role in the fusion program.  CS lobbied the House Science & Technology Committee in order to get further funding for UW fusion research.  He focused his efforts on a few individuals, such as congressman Toby Roth.

00:05:38	No question: CS calls the decision to provide funds for physicist Kerst and his fusion program "good business."  CS discusses how UW departments tend to help each other in times of need.

00:09:03	Question: Talk just for a moment in terms of the research climate within the college of engineering, how would you characterize it? Answer: CS describes how research at the UW COE over the last few decades has changed from an individual to a team approach, and he lauds the recent trend of interdisciplinary research programs.  He also relates the difficulty of assessing faculty research productivity once the team approach became more common.

00:13:12	No question: CS talks about past fluctuations and recent trends in the willingness of federal agencies to fund basic research.

00:15:45	No question: CS discusses lobbying in Washington and the importance of keeping the pulse on federal funding policy and trends.  CS says he usually concentrated on what was good for the state verses what was just good for the UW COE when making his own policy and lobbying decisions.

00:18:03	No question: CS condemns the most recent cuts in funding basic research in the Department of Defense budget.

00:20:30	Question: Is the college of engineering doing anything to try and work toward generating research dollars in less traditional ways? Answer: He emphasizes the UW COE's recent need to diversify their "portfolio" for funding sources since it cannot now rely on the more traditional channels.  Private industry is playing an increasingly key role in funding COE research, says CS.

00:22:33 	No question: CS gives an example of funding changes in the Engine Research Center, in that it is now more reliant on alliances with other universities and with industry.  CS discusses the lingering problem of conflict of interest when using private funding sources for COE research programs.

00:25:00	Question: In your relations with industry is there ever a concern over conflict of interest? Answer: CS emphasizes the need to have "sound principles" when dealing with private sources of funding, and the need to be clear about funding policy ground rules.

00:29:11	Question: Did you see educating newcomers [in terms of lobbying] as part of your job? Answer: CS speaks of his role in taking new faculty members under his care and showing them how to maneuver in Washington D.C. to obtain research grants.

00:30:58	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:31:27	Question: Did you have to go to meetings to develop your contacts? Answer: CS emphasizes the importance of new faculty members meeting with federal funding agency members and establishing a network of contacts so they can increase their chances of getting future research support.

00:32:20	No question: CS stresses the importance of faculty members conducting research to adapt to the ever-changing forces in  federal funding agencies.

00:34:48	Question: Do you have any comments on your role in mentoring people? Answer: CS stresses the need for more successful faculty members to help younger researchers in the grant-getting game.  Such faculty conduct is the basis of the "mentoring system" that CS says Howard Temin often praised.

00:37:00	Question: Let's talk for a few minutes about your lobbying, when did you become a lobbyist? Answer: CS discusses the beginnings of his COE lobbying efforts in Washington.  He stresses the need for someone in his administrative capacity to be “a servant of the faculty."

00:39:03	Question: When did you start going to Washington more frequently? Answer: CS recounts how using Robert Marshall's name in Washington "opened a lot of doors".  He discusses recent federal policy which decreases funding for academic research.

00:42:04	Question: Did other universities have people in Washington doing similar types of things? Answer: CS says he was not sure if other universities had similar lobbying efforts in Washington, but he did say the UW Agricultural Department had a strong lobbying presence there.

00:42:50	No question: CS discusses why he thought it wasn't necessary for the UW COE to have a permanent lobbyist in Washington D.C.  It was his belief that no one could do a better job of selling one's research than the faculty members themselves.  CS criticizes federal lobbying in that there is often too much distance between the lobbyist and the cause they are lobbying for.

00:44:32	Question: Did you spend a lot of time in Washington? Answer: CS stresses the importance of acquiring a personal style for making one's way around the Washington scene.  CS believes personal contact is more effective in Washington than either telephone or email.

00:48:06	Question: What about some of the other Wisconsin people that you dealt with? Answer: CS portrays the various Wisconsin politicians in Washington D.C. over the years and their relative effectiveness for supporting the UW COE and, more generally, Wisconsin.  Senator Gaylord Nelson, CS says, was one who really understood and strongly supported UW-Madison.

00:48:48	No question: He describes Senator William Proxmire as a "different breed."  He hurt the COE, CS contends, by being critical of NSF, a key financier of UW research activity.  CS thinks Proxmire was of greater value to the country than the UW.

00:52:44	No question: CS felt Congressman Bob Kastenmeier and his staff were the most effective in dealing with the needs of the UW, as well as with legislation dealing with intellectual property rights for academic institutions.

00:55:05	Question: What about senator Kasten? Answer: CS was a "strong supporter" of Senator Robert Kasten who, CS says, grew a lot as an effective politician.  Kasten was primarily responsible for the funding of the Engine Research Center.

00:58:24	Question: Kohl and Feingold, did you work with either of them? Answer: CS says current Senator Herb Kohl has a very effective staff who help the UW whenever possible.  

00:59:37	Question: You mentioned Aspin and Roth, were there any other congressmen outside the Madison district in the state of Wisconsin whom you worked with? Answer:  Congressmen Tom Petri from Fond du Lac, CS says, had "real statesmanship qualities" and could rise above partisan politics and do what he felt was best for Wisconsinites.  

01:00:24	Question: How did they view UW-Madison? Answer: He discusses the relative importance of UW-Madison to these politicians and the reputation of UW-Madison to Washington insiders. CS describes the UW is "a great product that sells itself."

01:02:12	End of side.  End of tape. 

Tape 4/Side 1

01:02:18	Question: Were there any particular staff members you worked closely with? Answer: CS talks about the importance of congressional and senatorial staff, the "people who really have to flesh out the issues."  CS mentions Bill Anahazy, a staff member for the House Armed Services Committee, who was closely allied with former committee chairman and Wisconsin congressman Les Aspin.

01:04:12	No question: CS talks about the staff members who operate behind the scenes and who compose the "shadow government on Capitol Hill."  These staffers are influential well beyond their authority, says CS.  He makes distinctions between junior and senior staff members.

01:06:11	No question: CS made an effort to educate promising young staff members to the various UW COE research programs.

01:07:50	No question: CS mentions Stuart Applebaum, a staffer for Robert Kastenmeier, who, CS says, had an intense loyalty and love for UW-Madison.

01:09:02	Question: Talk about dean Wendt as a dean, about his strengths as dean, any weaknesses he may have had? Answer: CS portrays former COE dean Kurt Wendt as a "man of great vision, integrity and wisdom who set a moral standard for the college."  Wendt was a great teacher in and out of the classroom, says CS, and people put great trust in him.

01:12:28	Question: You mentioned an anecdote about how he “knew when to quit”, could you relate that? Answer: CS gives an anecdote about Wendt's ability to be tenacious and yet "knowing when to quit."

01:14:24	Question: Do you think that you recognized the importance of mentoring through Wendt? Answer: CS discusses how much he enjoyed being in an environment where moral principles of management were practiced.  He discusses the decision making process.

01:16:36	Question: Was Wendt a strong backer of research? Answer: CS discusses Wendt's attitudes toward research and undergraduate teaching.  He explains how Wendt and associate dean Robert Marshall were an administrative match and balanced each other in running the COE.

01:18:05	Question: Could you address Wendt's service contributions to the community? Answer: CS discusses Wendt's numerous contributions to UW-Madison, like the campus building committee.  He then discusses other projects that many did not even know of.

01:20:34	No question: CS alludes to the community-wide respect held for Wendt by explaining how Wendt, a conservative republican, was on liberal democrat Patrick Lucy's State Investment Board.

01:21:12	Question: He was replaced by Bob Marshall, did people pretty much expect that? Answer: CS describes the smooth transition from Dean Kurt Wendt to Dean Robert Marshall.  CS describes how Marshall, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, was sought after for the deanship of many other engineering colleges, and that his research in spray-drying and processing was held with great regard internationally.  

01:22:45	Question: You have worked with him for a long time, could you characterize him for us? Answer: CS portrays Robert Marshall, who was a close personal friend, as another man with "great vision" who was a "great listener."  Marshall always arranged for the faculty members to receive credit for their successes, unbeknownst to them.

01:25:25	No question: CS tells about a conflict between farmers and public utility companies that Wendt helped resolve and which provided a good indication of Marshall's leadership abilities.

01:29:08 	No question: CS briefly compares the deanships of Wendt and Marshall.  Both, he says, were adept at getting faculty involvement in administrative decision making.  CS described Marshall as much more "low-key" than Wendt, who, CS says, had quite a formidable presence.

01:30:47	Question: Did dean Marshall also retire at retirement age? Answer: CS discusses Marshall's retirement and his later work for the University Industry Research program.

01:31:41	Question: The third dean we're going to talk about is dean Bollinger, you didn't work with him as long as the others. Answer: CS thinks current COE dean John Bollinger has a "different style" than his predecessors. Bollinger made many management and administrative changes when he took the helm.  Though CS did not work closely with Bollinger, he views him as having "great vision and moral character."

01:33:07	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

01:33:11	No question: CS says the COE faculty were ready for a change in leadership style, and Dean Bollinger offered this to them.

01:34:07	Question: [In regard to leadership style] A change in emphasis from what to what? Answer: CS talks about a changing of the guard from chemical engineers like Marshall and Camden Coberly to engineering-types like John Bollinger, who was a mechanical engineer.

01:34:57	No question: CS says that Bollinger's "sphere of contact" was closely connected to private industry, while Marshall and Wendt were more tied to federal agencies and big academic institutions.

01:35:56	No question: CS talks about a few problems that faced Bollinger’s deanship, such as a lack of research facilities, low faculty pay and soaring student enrollment levels in the COE.

01:37:02	No question: CS describes Bollinger as a "prolific fund-raiser," partly because of all his industry contacts. 

01:37:35	No question: Bollinger used his industry contacts to help support faculty pay increases, and he showed COE faculty that they could earn more by being more actively involved in research for industry.

01:38:41	No question: CS says Bollinger put restrictions on enrollment numbers and raised acceptance standards.
 
01:40:20 	Question: Did you work with Dean Bock? Answer: CS discusses former UW Graduate School Dean Robert Bock.  He had an amazing ability, CS notes, to be literate in a wide range of academic disciplines.  He also had an "untiring willingness" to help promote whatever the various schools and colleges thought they needed.

01:42:27	Question: Did you work with Rude? Answer: CS portrays former UW Associate Dean Eric Rude as a "broker," with a role similar to his own in the UW COE.  Rude knew he was there to serve the faculty, as did CS.

01:44:19	Question: What about the chancellors office, is there anyone in particular you worked with there? Answer: CS talks about the chancellorship of Irving Shain.  Both Shain and Len Van Ess, a vice-chancellor, were accessible.  He describes both as men of honor.

01:45:48	Question: Were there any other chancellors besides chancellor Shain you worked closely with? Answer: CS discusses former Chancellor Donna Shalala and her leadership style.  "She falls under the category of a 'supersalesman,'" says CS, and he thought her very good at recruiting faculty.
 
01:48:04	No question: CS discusses Shalala and her move to become President Clinton's Secretary of Health and Human Services.  Many in Washington originally poked fun at her, says CS, but they quickly learned not to underestimate her.

01:48:38	Question: Could you discuss your work in the area of patent disclosure processes? Answer: CS briefly discusses his work with the UW Intellectual Properties Committee and patent disclosure processes. 

01:49:48	No question: CS says he did a lot of work negotiating research agreements with private industry, which would inevitably lead into areas of intellectual property issues.  CS worked closely with Mike Liethen and Kathy Irwin, the chancellor's attorneys, in these negotiations.

01:50:26	No question: CS and Liethen formed an effective team that set a number of patent disclosure policies that are still widely used today by other institutions.

01:51:45	Question: How did we get involved in working with Germany? Answer: CD describes working with the Bosch Corporation in Germany on some micro mechanical sensors that a UW engineering faculty member, Henry Guckel, designed and WARF held patents for.  This technology was used in automobile anti-lock brake mechanisms.

01:54:03	Question: In terms of income generated to the university was there any? Answer: The income stream generated from the micromechanical sensor technology is the most lucrative of any UW COE generated patent.

01:54:26	Question: How much of the income gets directed back to the college of engineering? Answer: CS gives a rough breakdown of where the income generated from UW patents goes.

01:55:12	No question: CS speaks about patent processes in general, and of the ever-present risk of infringement.  He discusses WARF's role in protecting UW researchers from infringement suits.

01:57:25	Question: Does a researcher have the choice of going to WARF or doing it themselves, how does that process work? Answer: CS discusses disclosure protocol for UW researchers when they come across something they believe to be patentable.

01:59:44	Question: One thing we didn't cover is your involvement with Brazil, could you discuss that? Answer: CS discusses his involvement with a Brazilian exchange project, supported by UW rural sociology professor Archibald Haller.  CS speaks of Haller's impeccable reputation in Brazil, and the curious Brazilian's conduct business.

02:03:54	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview session.

END of Oral History #511