UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #609
H'DOUBLER, MARGARET

H'DOUBLER, Margaret (1889-1982)
Professor of Physical Education and Dance
At UW: 1906-1910; 1910-1916; 1917-1954

First Interview
Interviewed: 1972	
Interviewer: Mary Alice Brennan
Length: 1.5 hours

Undergraduate education at UW; Appointment as instructor of physical education; Leave of absence in New York to study philosophy and to research dance; Development of dance program at UW; Orchesis; Philosophy of dance.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1975	
Interviewer: Carl Gutknecht
Length: 0.75 hour

Establishment of dance program at UW; Leave of absence in New York to research dance; Philosophy of dance.

First Interview (October 8, 1972): Tapes 1-2

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:32		Margaret H'Doubler recalls that Blanche Trilling, director of physical education for women, introduced dance to the university after she arrived in approximately 1908, when MH was still a student.1  Prior to Trilling’s arrival, Abby Mayhew had been director of the Department of Physical Education for Women.  Classes were held in Chadbourne Hall.

00:02:03	As a student, MH loved her classes in physical education and took every possible activity course she could.  She majored in biology and minored in philosophy.  Her courses in biology provided a foundation for her interest in physical education.

00:03:17	Physical education classes were moved to Lathrop Hall during MH’s senior year.  One day she saw Dr. Denniston teaching dance to a group of students.  MH thought the class looked fun.

00:04:07	After she came to the university, Trilling became interested in expanding the dance program.  She was not at all satisfied with the state of dance at the time.   After MH graduated, Trilling invited her to teach in the physical education department.

00:05:36	MH loved all sports, and basketball in particular.  She was very successful in encouraging female students to play: “I almost had every girl in the university playing basketball.  And there was so much interest that there even had to be invitations given out to the townspeople [to watch the games].  We couldn’t take care of the crowds.”  MH also organized intramural sports.

00:06:43	A summer course at the Sargent School of Physical Education (part of Harvard Summer School) proved to be extremely disappointing.  MH took a leave of absence and spent one year (1916-17) studying philosophy at Columbia.  

00:07:53	She was asked to be the graduate member of the Columbia University Education Philosophical Club, an experience that sparked her interest in the human mind.  While at Columbia she read numerous books about drama and theater across various civilizations.

00:09:50	When Trilling learned that MH was planning to spend a year in New York, she asked her to research dance in New York and then redesign the dance program at UW.  MH was horrified because she knew little about dance and did not want to give up teaching basketball.

00:10:38	MH spent time studying dance in New York, where she found the quality of the ballet very disappointing.  Dancers merely imitated other people's movements.  She wrote to Trilling of her inability to find any kind of dance that either she or Trilling would want her to teach at UW.

00:11:16	Nineteen-seventeen was an interesting year to be in New York because the arts were undergoing a revolt.  MH met other people who were dissatisfied with traditional ballet, but she found their movements just as rigid as those of ballet dancers.  For a while she was interested in Emile Jaques-Dalcroze’s eurhythmics, but then she became disenchanted with this method on the grounds that it was more concerned with music than with movement.

00:12:54		MH relates an anecdote about beginning to lose her hair and having to wear a switch in order to hide her hair loss.  Although she wanted to cut her hair short, short hair was unthinkable for a dancer: “I thought ‘My goodness: short hair, dance, New York.  Just one thought: ruined woman.’”

00:13:56	MH frequently wrote to Trilling describing her disappointment with the New York dance scene.  Trilling recommended that MH visit Alys Bentley, a music teacher who taught children at Carnegie Hall.  Bentley was interested in MH’s problem and allowed her to join a class.  

00:15:28	MH was particularly excited when Bentley had her students lie on the floor, because this allowed them to experiment with movement without the pull of gravity.  MH found that by lying on the floor she was able to study the structural response of the body to movement.  She took lessons with Bentley for approximately a month.

00:17:27	MH recalls that while visiting her brother in Boston, she talked to two professors at the Sargent School of Physical Education.  Neither of them understood her search for a new form of dance.  MH also visited Amy M. Homans, who had been at the Boston Normal School of Gymnastics before joining the faculty at Wellesley College.  But even Homans was unsympathetic, and MH found herself in the hall outside Homans’ office within five minutes.

00:19:27	On her way back from Boston, she had her hair cut short.  Every night she did up her hair so that no one could see how short it was.

00:20:04	After a year in New York, MH returned to Madison.  She went to see Trilling, who was horrified by MH’s short hair.  Trilling said, “My Lord, Marge!  Do you know what will happen?  The students will all cut their hair and I won’t be able to place them because they’ll be considered mannish!”  She sent MH to the dean of women, who looked at MH’s hair and said “How I envy you!”

00:21:23	MH taught summer school for six weeks during the summer of 1917.

00:21:56	In the fall, MH began teaching dance to students, many of whom had no experience dancing.2  Some students initially hid behind the pillars in the gym because of their shyness.  An English professor complained to MH that students would only write and talk about dance in their other classes.

00:23:25	Students were so enthusiastic that they asked for an extra class on Wednesday nights.  Many evenings professors from other departments came to watch and offer their thoughts.  Among these professors was Max Otto.

00:24:28	MH describes her experimentation at this time and what she taught in her classes.

00:25:51	She began receiving invitations to demonstrate her method of teaching at other universities.  Until this time, no women had been permitted to go off campus to represent the university.  The president finally asked MH to stop giving demonstrations because he did not want the university to become known as a dancing school.

00:27:21	The university received requests for teachers, but it could not fill them because it did not yet offer a dance major.

00:27:58	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:28:00	MH continues to talk about the additional class she taught on Wednesday nights.  Students accepted her suggestion that the class be named Orchesis, a Greek word meaning the science of motion.

00:30:06	After MH and her students were no longer permitted to travel to other campuses, visitors began coming to campus to observe MH’s dance classes.  Her students never missed a demonstration.  Homans, who had earlier dismissed MH from her office, was very impressed by the class she watched.

00:32:01	Trilling rarely visited MH’s classes and did not stay for long when she did.  During her brief visits, the students were always lying on the floor.  For this reason she developed a negative impression of MH’s teaching.  On one occasion, she expressed her disappointment with MH.  But after watching a program, her opinion changed and she was supportive thereafter.

00:33:47	At a dinner held after the program, Homans gave a speech in which she described how impressed she was with MH’s work.  In this speech she admitted she had initially not been interested in MH’s ideas.  MH learned that after her visit to Homans in Boston, Homans had written a letter to Trilling in which she expressed her skepticism about MH.  This was the reason for Trilling’s earlier lack of support.

00:35:16	MH discusses several other dance innovators at the time.

00:36:28	MH talks briefly about the books she has published.

00:36:51	The dance major, MH notes, was created in 1923.3  The motivation for establishing a major was to fill the requests the university was receiving for dance teachers.  Trilling did not believe the university would consent to establish a dance major.  MH proposed a course of study emphasizing science and philosophy to the university and was surprised when George Sellery, dean of the College of Letters and Science, reacted positively and agreed to help her.  The School of Education and the College of Letters and Science both passed the proposal unanimously.  She explains the role that students played in getting the major passed.

00:39:55	MH talks about her philosophy of dance and the importance of biology and physiology to her understanding of rhythm and movement.

00:51:06	She discusses the similar needs of professional students and general students.

00:53:24	Public performances have an importance place in dance education, MH explains.

00:55:37	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:00	MH describes what she learned about rhythm and movement from a physiology professor.

00:02:41	She talks about how students’ attitudes toward dance have changed during her career.  The students who graduated from the dance program at UW did very well professionally.

00:06:18	MH gives her opinion on the place of dance within academia.  Dance should not be considered a form of physical activity, but rather a means of creative expression.

00:09:28	MH greatly enjoyed meeting the students from her 1921 classes fifty years later and was thrilled to learn that what they had learned in dance class had carried over into the rest of their lives.

00:11:33	The primary knowledge she wants students to gain through dance is a knowledge of self.

00:12:44	MH opines that it does not matter what department dance belongs to as long as it is taught in such a manner that it contributes to a philosophy of education.  Dance should be taught for the values it offers that no other discipline can offer.  The physical education department is a natural place for dance because both use the medium of movement.  However, dance should not be included this department on the grounds that it teaches strength and flexibility, since these are not its special contributions.

00:15:10	MH returns to the topic of her year in New York and describes the ferment she saw in the arts.  Painters, musicians and dancers were all revolting against traditional ideas.  She appreciated the technique demonstrated in the ballet she watched, but was disappointed by the types of movement she saw because of their lack of creativity.  Among the dancers she watched was Isadora Duncan, whose movements MH describes as too emotional and insufficiently disciplined.

00:17:25	End of side.  End of tape.

Second Interview (February 3, 1975): Tape 3

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:22	The interviewer explains to MH how he became aware of her work.  They make preliminary comments about the interview.

00:01:48	MH talks about the establishment of the dance department.  When she was an undergraduate student, she was very interested in athletics for women.  Blanche Trilling, director of physical education for women, invited her to teach dance.  MH had planned to spend a year studying philosophy in New York.

00:03:02	Trilling asked MH to see what was being taught in New York.  Nineteen-seventeen was an interesting year to be in New York because there was a revolt in the arts at the time.  The more dance MH saw, the more she disliked it because dancers merely imitated the movements of others.  Even the people who were revolting against traditional ideas did not satisfy her.

00:04:59	About six weeks before MH was to leave New York, Trilling recommended that MH see a music teacher, Alys Bentley, who worked at Carnegie Hall.  Bentley taught children to create their own songs.  MH was impressed by her technique of having children lie on the floor.

00:06:38	Although Bentley encouraged her to stay in New York, MH decided to return to Madison.  Before doing so, she visited a school of physical education to speak to two leaders in the field, but they were unable to help her.  A visit to Amy M. Homans, who was in charge of dance at Wellesley College, was also unsuccessful.

00:08:02	MH explains why she was dissatisfied with the dancing she saw and what she hoped to find.

00:10:18	After MH’s hair began to fall out, she cut her hair short.  Bentley, whom MH admired so much, also had short hair.

00:11:36	MH returned to Madison, where she taught summer school for six weeks.  The course ended with a production.

00:12:27	In the fall, students arrived on campus, many of whom had never been introduced to dance before.  MH taught students to become aware of their sensations by blindfolding them.  The blindfolds also prevented students from imitating one another or MH.  She never taught a class without using a skeleton to demonstrate the human structure to students.

00:15:41	MH was asked to give demonstrations of her techniques at other universities. The UW had never before allowed women students to represent the university at an off-campus event.  The demonstrations continued until MH received too many requests, at which point visitors began coming to Madison instead.

00:17:29	Trilling was initially unsupportive of MH’s efforts, but MH asked her to wait until the final performance before making her judgment.  The performance was so popular that the students repeated it.  Trilling then became supportive.

00:20:21	MH describes the additional class on Wednesday nights she held for interested students.  The group was named Orchesis.  Students never failed to show up for a demonstration.

00:22:33	Homans was impressed by the dance class she watched.  At a dinner given in Homans’ honor, she expressed regret that she had considered MH crazy when MH first visited her in Boston.

00:24:50	MH explains what she hopes students will learn from dance education.

00:25:50	Trilling expressed skepticism that the university would permit the establishment of a dance major.  Dean of Letters & Science George Sellery supported MH and helped her write the proposal, which was passed unanimously by the School of Education and by the College of Letters and Science.  Students had helped create this major by demonstrating their enthusiasm for dance by writing and talking about dance in their other classes.

00:27:28	MH continues to describe her philosophy of dance.

380	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

The first part of this interview segment is missing.

00:29:27	MH talks about how dance can help students discover values.  She argues that dance ought to be taught in schools.  Although only a small number of children will become gifted dancers, other children will learn to be appreciative audiences.

00:32:44	She explains Trilling’s role in establishing dance at UW.

00:33:08	Students who move on to other dance teachers can apply what they learned from MH about human motion.  MH talks about the connection between movement and emotion.

00:34:38	MH received a prize from the physical education branch of the National Education Association for her work.  The association asked her to record an oral history.

00:36:43	MH is encouraged to hear from seventy-year old former students about what her classes meant to them.

00:37:50	End of side.  End of tape.

END