UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #362
SMITH, NEWELL J.

SMITH, Newell J.  (1918-2011)
Undergraduate Student; Staff, Residence Halls; Director of Residence Halls
At UW: 1936-1941; 1945-1983

First Interview
Interviewed: 1983	
Series: Housing
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 5 hours

Student experience; Civil engineering major; Dormitory life; House fellow; Faculty Housing Committee; Truax housing in post-WWII years; Work on temporary housing and construction of permanent housing; Eagle Heights; Promotion to assistant director and then director of housing; Elizabeth Waters Hall and co-ed housing; University Campus Planning Commission; Student Life and Interests Committee; Civil Defense Committee; University Club; Faculty status for non-faculty positions.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 2002				
Interviewer: Eric Olmanson 
Length: 2.5 hours

Undergraduate degree and work in residential halls; Appointment to UW; Post-war housing boom; Housing for veterans; Changes in dining halls; Residential education system; House fellow system; Effect of student unrest on housing; Alcohol; Administrative staff and promotions; Rheta McCutchin; Closing comments

First Interview – First Session (October 18, 1983): Digital File 1 (Smith.New.362_10.18.1983, From Tapes 1-2)

Time		Description

00:00:00		Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:19	Student days.  Newell Smith discusses reasons he came to the University of Wisconsin.  He came as a freshman in 1936 as a civil engineering major.  His high school principal encouraged him to live in residence halls.  He worked for at least twenty hours per week.  Lots of students were in same boat.  Ended up as head waiter, best job available.  Scholarships in those days were on strictly academic basis.  NS doesn't remember any scholarships based on financial need.

00:06:15	NS unsure why he chose civil engineering, except that he wanted to spent time outdoors.  Spent two years surveying.  NS discusses old labs in civil engineering.  Briefly discusses some of his teachers.  Switched to economics.  His work in housing got him interested in working with students.  Don Halverson gave him encouragement.  There was no student personnel program.  Scott Goodnight said he should get a Ph.D. and a teaching position and then switch.  Instead, he got a Ph.B.  Was encouraged to stay in housing.  Discusses how he used engineering skills in years after WWII during building boom.

00:17:42	Scott Goodnight.  NS liked him.  Was very rigid.  Generally well liked.  Could be hard as hell.  NS thinks adverse side of Goodnight has been exaggerated over years.

00:22:23	Discusses Faculty Committee.  Decided to build Tripp and Adams for educational purposes, not because they needed housing.  House fellow concept a new idea.  Divided groups into houses large enough to sustain activities, large enough to choose friends, but small enough to encourage camaraderie.  Each hall would have its own den, own government.  There would also be someone living in house to provide guidance--a graduate student with high grades.  That philosophy was still in effect in 1936 when NS arrived.  A great honor to be elected a house fellow.  UW is only university in country that has house fellow reunions.

00:32:55	Except during meals, NS rarely saw his house fellow.  Every meal was fairly formal, NS describes it.  House fellows tried to stimulate dinner conversation.  Describes faculty who came to dinner.  Excellent food.  Buleah Dailey was dietician.  Halverson was very involved with food.  Carson Gulley was chef.

00:44:47	Break in sound (tape side change)

00:44:58	NS describes Buleah Dailey.

00:47:19	NS had little contact with Porter Butts.

00:49:23	Discusses Depression, isolationism.

00:53:11	NS discusses Ed Witte and social security.  Tells how he was initially opposed to concept of social security.  On campus Franklin D. Roosevelt had many supporters and many critics.  Faculty truly believed that a general education was way to go.  Teaching them to be ladies and gentlemen was important.  This disappeared after WWII.  Notion accepted by students but was faculty's idea.

00:59:52	As head waiter, NS wouldn't let anyone in late for dinner.  NS has heard from various sources (not first-hand) that Experimental College students were less than cooperative.

01:04:07	NS discusses training of waiters, and formal dining room.  Waiters were trained by head waiter and assistant head waiter.  Describes training.  Raises issue of manners, which were watched by house fellows.  It was house fellows' obligation to call attention to errors.  No prayers were offered at meals, though they were said at banquets.  Some tables prayed on their own.

01:14:08	After graduation NS was hired by housing full time for three months.  Understanding was that he'd be hired back in a year or two.  But he ended up being in service for a long time.  He did miscellaneous activities for those three months.  Discusses criteria for placing students in dorms.

01:22:05	1945.  Tells of how E.B. Fred got him out of army early after end of WWII.  Lived in President's home on Prospect.  NS was at Truax.  

01:26:12	Truax. "Whole machine" worked toward releasing Truax to UW from Army.  NS had been officer so he understood what army was all about.  Had about twenty GIs living in each ward.  Describes some of changes that were made.  Ended up with 1500 single vets quarters; 100 married vets' quarters.  NS was there from 1945 to 1950-51.  Truax had two cafeterias.  Discusses busses, had 35 of them.  All makes of busses.

01:31:25	UW also had 400 trailers at Camp Randall and where Hilldale is now.

01:31:55	End of first analog tape. Begin second analog tape.

01:32:01	NS arrived at Truax of November 10, 1945.  500 living spaces were available, federally funded.  Not enough housing for vets anywhere.  Not enough housing for vets anywhere.  Part of problem was you couldn't get building supplies anywhere.  Madison tried to use existing facilities.  Illinois and Indiana would go and get barracks and bring them to campus.  There were Quonset huts but they were used for classrooms.  They did move in 400 trailers obtained from variety of places.  Mostly from manufacturing plants.  Normal to have a six-day week with ten-hour days.

01:37:35	Prior to 1953 NS had complete control at Truax.  He'd go to A.W. Peterson and say he needed such and such and they'd get it.  Not a lot of red tape.  Gallistel would find location.  Peterson would get project through regents, never any committees.  NS discusses Cole, Sullivan, Eagle Heights.  Had College Housing Loan Program (under HUD) 3 percent money.  Bond council in Chicago was John Newton Mitchell.  "We could never do [what we did] under today's set up."  No problems with city of Madison.  Housing stayed within boundaries.  Wasn't until 1950s and 1960s that trouble began with city.  Regarding boundaries of campus, there was never any "official action" that says "this is the line."  At first there were some vets in residence halls.  After things settled down a little, they were moved out.  By early 1950s things were back to normal.

01:50:15	Vets at Truax were very pragmatic.  They weren't at University for "ladies and gentlemen" concept of higher education.  Instead "it was sort of a catch-up thing for them."  Hell-raising was not a problem, no vandalism.  They were not about to let a non-vet order them around.  NS had been an enlisted man and an officer, in a fighting wing of service, which allowed him to assert some control. It was a crisis time, but everyone was used to living in a crisis time from the war, but it wore thin after a while.

01:55:36	Food was served cafeteria style.  Bread and butter and gravy type meals.  Mrs. Farley was in charge, no nutritional education, but ran Truax cafeteria.  Typical meal was housewife-type cooking.  Used to army cooking and heavy food, nobody interested in fancy meals.  Cafeteria style at residence halls, too, they had to give up niceties and traditions.  UW lost social traditions of big bands, formal parties, teas, etc.  Dress: a lot of GI dress.  In dorm dining rooms dress codes went by the boards also.  Vets could live off GI bill so they didn't have to work, but if they wanted to work they’d be employed.  Housing employed lots of wives, no room for children at Truax, but kids at Badger and in the trailers.

02:01:25	George Gurda was in charge of Personnel and Student Activities.  Job was to work with vets on student activities, organizations, counseling, etc. Also, intramurals, recreational facilities, etc.

02:02:29	Wayne Krebs did business side.  He hired bus drivers, room assignments, night watchmen, custodians, etc.  NS handled problems that came up and building aspects.  Anecdote about a student worker working with the buses who made a career of it.

02:07:00	End of digital file (end of tape side).

First Interview – Second Session (November 15, 1983): Digital File 2 (Smith.New.362_11.15.1983 From Tapes 3-4)

Time		Description

00:00:00		Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:15	After 1950 NS handled Truax from campus as it wound down.  Need for new housing on campus was obvious.  Started working on doing away with temporary housing and construction of permanent housing.  Earlier (1945-46) they just did what they could (like a military operation), and then they started planning (1949-1950).  NS did a lot of this, gathering materials together.  Recognized need for family housing – that was what all of temporary housing was.  Question became where to build, distance from main campus.  There were problems with Eagle Heights, like affordability question.  Lee Burns, Gallistel, and A.W. Peterson worked on issue.  There was a faculty committee for single student housing.  E.B. Fred was supportive, but delegated authority to A.W. Peterson.  Ag owned Eagle Heights.  Ag there acquired some land around Mineral Point Road.  NS suspects there might have been a trade-off.

00:11:52	Eagle Heights.  Needed to find a formula that would allow them to borrow money and pay it back at a reasonable rate.  Housing department argued for low rise housing for kids, wives to have better environment.  They argued for maintenance because initial construction was cheap.  Did it because they needed housing quickly.  Went through state legislature.  NS doesn't remember any problems.

00:17:52	Legislature.  Basically housing got good cooperation.  E.B. Fred was a big help, very well-respected.  A.W. Peterson worked with legislature also.  Clarke Smith, secretary of Regents, was secretary of building corporation, a dummy corporation that borrowed all money.  Clarke Smith handled it.  He was money man, regents were generally supportive.

00:23:11	Mid-1950s.  Single student housing was issue.  Had faculty committee for this one.  Building Committee had some members from faculty committee.  Not a great amount of controversy.

00:24:32	Some communication among Big Ten schools, but very little on housing.  In 1947 Big Ten started meeting as a group; had met earlier but never regularly.  In 1949, common problems spurred them to see whether they could organize nationally.  Some forty people met at University of Illinois that year.  National association started with that meeting and has met regularly since. Limited communications with state colleges, all through admin staff.

00:31:10	NS promoted to assistant director.  About 1952, Lee Burns began having health problems.  He decided in 1953 that he couldn't handle job any longer (things were hectic, high pressure, moving in lengthy multi-year phases).  NS appointed director.  No committees, no interviews.  A.W. Peterson asked NS to take job.  Issues: building and expansion was main one.  Buleah Dailey handled food service part of it.  Fern Hintz was a help too.  NS estimates that 75 percent of his time spent on expansion program.  Didn't have a faculty committee for married student housing, but did have one for single student housing.  Everyone worked for common good.

00:41:07	Three key people in expansion, early on. Gallistel worked with State Bureau of Architecture, hired an architect and dealt with land, sewer, water problems. A.W. Peterson handled financing and financial aspect of enterprise as vice-president for business.  NS handled housing aspect.  He determined about type, cost, and schedule of building.  Gallistel and NS did leg work.

00:42:46	Clarke Smith was another key person.  He was executive secretary of Wisconsin Building Corporation, a non-profit organization which could borrow money for the University, which could not.

00:44:11	Architects had no concept of student housing, which made things “hairy” at times.  They had difficulty in finding architects sensitive to housing needs.  Additional problems of meeting schedules and administrators wanting lowest costs.

00:47:07	End of analog tape side. Break for tape change.
	
00:47:15	Housing "really heard about it" from parents, alumni when they suggested that Liz Waters go co-ed.  By regents' orders they are supposed to provide enough non-co-ed housing for people who want it.  Also can provide co-ed wings and floors, but not room by room, due to bath facilities set-up.

00:49:49	Position on visitation hours question started shifting after WWII, shift was gradual.  By late 1960s, women's hours were out and 24-hour visitation came in.

00:50:55	Discusses security in housing.  Staff usually handles things, and can call on University protection and security when necessary (they walk through occasionally).  Housing has its own night watchmen, much like watchmen elsewhere on campus.  NS describes Joe Hammersley, unease with him as head of security.

00:53:55	Discusses Conrad Elvehjem.  NS says he's had excellent relations with all seven presidents he's worked for.  After Peterson died NS reported directly to chancellor.  Had great respect for Elvehjem, who stayed out of one's way.  No president tried to impose his view on housing.  Irving Shain disbanded off-campus housing.  Shain said that, in a financial crunch, non-academic areas needed to go first.  Fred Harvey Harrington and NS got along well.  He argued for Ten Year Plan.  "If it isn't broken don't fix it" seems to have been attitude of chancellors over time. Peterson died after announcing his retirement, then Neil Cafferty took over, followed by Ruben Lorenz. 

01:04:47	Changes in philosophy of assigning students to rooms. When NS was a student, living in halls depended on maintaining certain grades. Change to co-ed housing. They still try to balance out freshmen and returning students, have never believe in all-freshman housing. Still attempts to mix big city and small town students, mix geographically. Almost all assigning now down by computer. Talks about strong intramurals before WWII, students recruiting strong players to their houses. 

01:10:36	University Campus Planning Commission.  NS was made a member so he could give housings' prospective.  All planning went through his committee.   No real key members, NS says.  NS would be on any committee that might touch housing.  This is where departments, etc., would wrestle with problems and locations, etc.

01:15:36	In its early days the Student Life & Interests Committee, which became Student Personnel Committee, was a control committee.  Handles rules and regulations that would apply to student on campus.  They discussed things like cars, fees, etc.  Student Personnel Committee more interested in student organizations and how they should be handled.  Student Life and Interests Committee made the rules; the Student Conduct Committee carried them out.  Student Life & Interests Committee was the legislative branch; the Student Conduct Committee was the judicial branch.

01:18:08	Until the 1960s there was a Residence Hall Faculty Committee.  They used to interview house fellow candidates but later they gave that up.  After WWII faculty members were not as interested in intermingling with students on a social basis.  NS made recommendations for the committee.  It was considered an honor to be on the committee before WWII; not so after the War.  A lot of the traditions were lost after WWII, including faculty mingling with students. NS knew almost everyone on campus pre-WWII, not so after culture change.

01:23:37	Housing for Graduate and Professional Students Committee is now handled be an appeals committee.  Before it set assignments policies, helped plan housing, etc.

01:26:51	NS was often on committees as a non-voting member.  Discusses consolidation of faculty committee.  University Houses Committee was voted out of existence at that time.  In the past they had been on call.  Essentially they would approve the same policies year after year.

01:32:11	The Civil Defense Committee designated escape routes, and even had food stored on campus.  Residence Halls were involved in how facilities would be used.  There were no fallout shelters on campus; but the committee did designate some in the area (ex, Slichter Hall basement).  UW had practice air raids.  There was a Civil Defense Coordinator on campus. Talks about Federal requirements and directives.

01:36:13	NS ate at the University Club from the late 1960s into the early 1970s.  The University Club was "going through difficult times."  NS's understanding was that they have been going downhill since WWII.  This was true across the country.  As a student before WWII NS worked there.  The University Club was "quite a prestigious place."  A lack of interest since WWII.  NS thinks students thought it a very prestigious place.  Students "stood in awe of it."

01:39:51	With faculty meetings, it used to be the same people who attended them every time.  They pretty much controlled things.  You could also "stack" meetings.  With the faculty senate that changed.

01:44:37	Faculty status used to be conferred on certain administrative jobs.  This has always been very controversial.  The current director of housing does not have faculty status.  "A change of philosophy."  NS found that having status was very helpful.

01:48:46	Years ago, NS said technology was going to make our buildings obsolete.  He argued that buildings should not be made to last for more than forty years.  NS ends his interview by briefly discussing campus housing of the future.

01:52:43	End of interview.

Second Interview (May 24, 2002): Digital File 3 (Smith.New.362_5.24.2002 From Tapes 5-7)

Time		Description

00:00:00		Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction
					
00:00:20	NS says that he feels the history of housing up until 1965, which was covered by Barry Teicher’s 1983 interview and Teicher and John Jenkins’s book on housing, is quite complete.

00:01:44	He recalls that he came to the university in 1936 and worked in the residence halls as a student.  After graduating in 1941 with a degree in economics, he was drafted and served until 1945.  He says that administrators including E.B. Fred and Donald Halverson wanted someone who had served in the military on hand to deal with the upsurge in enrollment by returning veterans.

00:05:03	NS, George Gurda and Larry Halle were brought to campus for this reason.  NS and Gurda worked on converting Truax Field into university housing, while Halle worked Badger Village, located at Baraboo.  After managing Truax for two years, NS was moved back to campus.  He describes some of the places on campus that were used for housing, and talks briefly about the construction of Eagle Heights.

00:08:18	In 1953, NS was appointed director of the residence halls, a position he kept until 1983.  He talks about working in the residence halls as an undergraduate, when he earned 32¢ an hour.

00:09:59	NS talks about the major changes that affected his responsibilities during the course of his career.  He describes the working atmosphere at Truax, where he worked mainly with veterans.  After becoming director of residence halls, there was a transition to non-veteran students and the university started building more traditional housing.  He also had to plan housing for married students.

00:13:33	He says that from 1953 to 1959, he built about one hundred apartments a year at Eagle Heights, in addition to other housing on campus.  In the early 1960s, the decision was made to begin building on the south-east side of campus.  By 1965, he estimates that the university had spent between $35 million and $50 million on housing.

00:16:23	In the mid 1960s, he spent all of his time dealing with campus unrest.  After the bombing of Sterling Hall, his job changed again as the campus calmed down and he was able to focus on educational programming run through housing.

00:20:54	NS mentions the debate over the courses that students were required to take.  He opines that students were excused from too many courses.

00:23:28	He says that activism did not end after Sterling Hall, but people were shaken by the experience and realized that the unrest had gone too far.  He does not believe that anyone supported the bombing.

00:25:18	He notes that the curriculum changes did not have an immediate connection to housing, but he feels it was an important part of the changing student environment.  He compares the new curriculum to that of the 1930s.

00:30:35	NS begins to note changes in housing that were driven by the Second World War.  Veterans sometimes had to share single rooms.

00:31:26	End of analog tape side. Break for tape change

00:31:36	NS talks about how overcrowding during the war brought about a change from sit-down meals to cafeteria-style dining.

00:33:25	Another change in dining was the transition from single-sex dining halls to co-educational halls.  He says that co-educational dining improved the relationship between the sexes.

00:37:37	NS explains that the sit-down meals were served by waiters in white coats and black ties.  As an undergraduate, he was a head waiter at Tripp Hall.  He thinks that such a system had the effect of improving students’ table manners.

00:39:58	He remarks that the returning veterans had no interest in learning social graces.  Because the veterans did not think the non-veterans knew anything, it was difficult to handle them.

00:42:52	NS says that the period of student unrest was difficult.  After 1972, he feels that the campus climate improved.  He characterizes the 1970s and early 1980s as a period of settling down, of new opportunities for residential education, and of improving student-faculty relations.

00:48:18	NS explains that the attempt to pursue residential education and group living goes back to 1926.  The graduate students who worked as house fellows organized activities for their houses.  Strong residential organizations existed, and houses governed themselves.

00:51:53	After the war, the faculty lost their desire to participate in these programs.  He feels that young faculty placed a higher priority on their own advancement than on contributing to the campus community.

00:53:56	NS says in the early 1950s, the university stopped providing free tuition to house fellows.  Because graduate students had new sources of funding available to them, they were no longer interested in working as house fellows, and housing administrators had to start hiring undergraduates.  At the same time, the faculty stopped interviewing all candidates for house fellow positions.

00:57:24	He says that housing started paying tuition and room & board for the house fellows in the 1950s.  This held the system together but did not strengthen it.  He regrets that housing could no longer attract graduate students, because the undergraduate house fellows were not as mature as graduate students and were not as successful as role models to the residents.

01:01:20	He begins to talk about house fellows who attempted to organize activities such as seminars.  

01:02:48	End of analog tape. Break for tape change.

01:02:56	NS continues to discuss house fellows’ attempts to organize seminars.  After the war, it was difficult to get faculty to become involved, and there was less interest by veterans in attending voluntary seminars.  He says that he does not know of any house or hall in the mid 1960s that had an organized educational program.

01:08:14	NS says the seminars that have recently been organized are much more structured than they used to be.  He talks about the amount of time and effort that is required to plan such a program.

01:10:25	He mentions a few other changes that were made in order to facilitate group living.  At the beginning of the 1960s, students had to pay for a common meal plan regardless of how much food they ate, but since then students pay only for the food they consume.  Housing officials are also now more responsive to student tastes than they once were.

01:15:24	NS says that it is now possible to live in a residential hall without being on a food plan, although students must still pay for the operation of the food hall.  He says that Rheta McCutchin, the director of food services, deserves credit for the innovative food plan.

01:21:03	He talks about the impact of the student unrest on housing.  Students often used the south-east dorms as a refuge during protests.  In contrast, there was little to protest near the lakeshore dormitories.

01:24:20	NS remembers standing in Witte Hall in the middle of the night, washing teargas out of his eyes at a drinking fountain.  He had been trying to clear the halls of people fleeing a protest.

01:27:13	NS recalls the leaders of the protests. He says that house fellows were not among the leaders of the activists.

01:28:58	NS describes various administrative roles within housing.  He points out that housing did not receive any subsidy from the state. NS describes how his educational background helped him in his work.

01:32:20	After 1965, when Witte Hall was built, there were no more major building projects for housing.  After NS’s retirement, a private donor funded an additional residence on Dayton Street.

01:34:09	End of analog tape side. Break for tape change.

01:34:24	NS continues to talk about the end of the building boom.  He gives additional details about the administrative roles within housing.

01:39:20	He communicated with colleagues at other universities, particularly Big Ten schools.  He lists several organizations for housing personnel with which he was involved.

01:41:43	NS talks about problems relating to housing that were shared by all universities during the 1970s, in particular student unrest.

01:45:29	In 1926, UW was the first school to develop a house fellow system in which the house fellows were students rather than faculty members.  In comparison to other schools, Wisconsin had a stronger sense of community in its residences.

01:49:35	NS talks about alcohol and housing.  When he was a student, 3.2% beer was served at housing parties.  After he became director of housing, he had the beer tested and discovered that the university was in fact purchasing regular beer with a different label.  Housing stopped providing beer at this point.

01:51:30	Students were well behaved, despite the beer that housing provided.  Before the war, residence halls hosted many formal dinners and dances.  Students would pay extra for the alcoholic parties.  NS says that when he worked as an undergraduate, he had little money and yet he owned a tuxedo and tails for these parties.

01:54:16	NS does not remember a single incidence of drug use during his tenure.  He describes the residence halls as generally congenial.  He attributes this good feeling to the efforts of housing administrators to solve problems without provoking antagonism.

01:57:19	He lists several of his colleagues whom he credits as being good at solving problems, including Paul Ginsberg, Lee Burns, Roger Howard, Larry Halle, and George Gurda.  It was not by chance that such talented administrators were hired–several, including Ginsberg, Howard and Gurda were former house fellows.

01:59:12	NS says that until Chancellor Shalala’s tenure, talented staff were able to advance within the housing administration.  Shalala insisted on bringing new people and ideas in. NS speaks a little about working conditions in housing.

02:02:25	He says that he feels there were many students who should not have been at the university, and it was up to the housing staff to try to help them to fit in.  Because of parental pressure, many students begin university before they are ready for it.

02:05:11	End of analog tape. Break for tape change.
		
02:05:25	NS repeats that his staff was the reason that housing did not have significant problems with student discipline.

02:06:38	He talks about some of the influential members of the administration who lived in student housing.

02:12:32	NS mentions the impact of computing on housing.  He is impressed by the quality of the computers installed in the study halls after his retirement.

02:14:00	[Silence or near silence as NS reads a list of topics provided to him by the interviewer.]

02:15:17	He talks about the dormitories in which students prefer to live.  He says he believes that students consider the lakeshore dorms more desirable than other residences.  He met extreme resistance from former Elizabeth Waters residents when he tried to make the residence co-educational in the late 1970s.

02:19:00	NS discusses his successor Norm Sunstad.  He believes that Sunstad was helped by Shalala’s preference for outsiders.

02:21:04	He makes closing comments about his career in housing.  He is proud that every month, sixty housing employees gather for an early breakfast.  He takes this as a sign that housing provides a positive working atmosphere for people.

02:25:31	NS tells a humorous anecdote about Rheta McCutchin.  McCutchin once ordered three-tined forks because she believed that they were fashionable.  So many residents complained about the “threeks” that she finally relented and returned to four-tined forks.

02:27:02	End of analog tape. End of digital file.

END