UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #301
WINSBOROUGH, HALLIMAN

WINSBOROUGH, Halliman (1932- )
Professor of Sociology
At UW: 1967-

Interviewed: 1985	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3 hours, 13 minutes

Background; Undergraduate and graduate work at University of Chicago; Training in writing; Working with computers at Duke; Appointment at UW; History of Center for Demography and Ecology; Need to update Center's computer; NIH grant and selection of new computer; Complications of working with newly-released 1970 census data; Impact of communication by computer; Poverty Institute and SSRI.

First Interview Session: January 31, 1985
Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	HW's family background.  Texas, California, Illinois.  Early admission to University of Chicago.  The undergraduate program under Hutchins.  He had to take the 3-year course in natural sciences.  His sociology profited from it.  Reasons for going into social sciences; and into teaching.  Reasons for choosing University of Chicago for graduate work.  Student job working for demographers.  

00:10:00	Demography done in centers.  First one at Princeton in 1920s.  Philip Hauser in charge of center at Chicago.  HW didn't think much of the rest of sociology in the 1950s.  Would have gone into psychology or economics in preference.  But liked what demography was dealing with.  David Riesman's work.  He was competitor with Hauser for power in the department; went off to Harvard when Hauser put in charge of center.  Dudley Duncan.  Hard to work with, unpredictable, but smart. 

00:15:17	First job at Ohio State.  Moribund at the time.  Offer at Duke.  Joseph Spengler, an economics-demographer, and Kurt Bock, soc-psych demographer.  Plans for a training program in demography at Duke.  HW eager to meet them.  Was assigned to make the center and get the training grants.  John McKinney department chairman, taught HW how to write grant proposals, how to build center.  Spengler became head.  

00:17:47	Question: why HW?  The new man; not engaged in other things.  HW's stepfather in advertising.  Successful. Had consulting firm.  Did propaganda for army during WWII.  Taught HW to write as an advertiser does; words for a purpose.  

00:20:32	HW worked in fund raising office at University of Chicago after he graduated.  Read speeches, made sure facts were correct.  

00:21:48	Was at Duke for five years.  The Triangle Universities Computing Center.  Bureau of Census was releasing first of its public use samples for 1960 census.  Duncan suggested HW get hold of it.  He did, ran it on computer, weird things happened, lucky there was plenty of money.

00:24:53	How HW learned to use a computer.  Began in army.  Chicago had a Univac.  Ohio State had device for teaching faculty taught by an IBM man.  Used a 709 and a 1620.  Learned programming.  Duke got a new 360; meant starting over using manuals.  

00:28:46	End of side. 

Tape 1/Side 2

00:28:54	Discussing the circumstances of his hiring.  The CDE history 1962 to 1967: the SSRI; Ryder headed the demography center.  An office with desk calculators and census records.  A name on a door for a couple of years.  Taeuber from Chicago (his dissertation at Harvard; his falling out with Kingsley David at Berkeley); Stanley Lieberson, ethnicity (Piece of the Pie) both hired in 1960s.  Lieberson left--wife didn't like it here.  Lieberson's effort to get tenure meant he worked strenuously--influence of Leo Schnore who published prolifically and easily, hard example to follow.  The plan of Winsborough (still at Duke), Lieberson, and two others to have themselves hired in Seattle to restore center for demography there.  Fell apart.  Reasons.  More on Pat Lieberson; why she didn't like Madison.  

00:39:35	Leo Schnore the other demographer; the original application for the training grant probably pushed by Borgatta; didn't get approved first time, but did on second submission.  As of 1967 time to reapply.  HW hired to come and make the application.  CDE had money for training and employed one secretary when HW arrived.  To renew the grant, HW set about finding out what the training consisted of.  Discovered courses in technical demography hadn't been offered for years.  Got the training grant refunded; got some more students; organized to hire some more assistant professors in demography; got a research grant.

00:44:14	Going on during antiwar movement.  Effects. 

00:44:38	Census Bureau's plan to release large volume of machine readable data from 1970 census.  1960, l in 1000.  1970, 1 in 100.  A great volume.  WH saw that a center of demography specializing US demography would have to be able to cope with this data.  1 in 100, 3 of them, and material on city blocks.  How to cope with that much material.

00:46:54	UW about to get a Burroughs 8500.  Would have been great but they never were able to make it.  CDC ok for math but not good for processing a lot of data.  Burroughs 5500 brought in while waiting for 8500.  CDC like the Dark Ages.  Shifted to Burroughs 5500.  Nice machine but not reliable; kept breaking down.  HW began doing programming; assistant came up from Duke to help.  Realization that Burroughs 8500 not going to materialize; purchase of UNIVAC.  HW liked it, getting a lot of work done when discovered they had changed the billing algorithm.  Meant going back and taking everything apart to cope with billing algorithm.  As bad as a change in the machine.  Had to do same task millions of times.  Important to save money on each task.  Impossible to get stability to process 1980 data.  Agency at NIH had new Centers grants available, Institute of Child Health and Human Development.  HW thought might be a way to get a computer.  Wrote a proposal.  A weird thing to do in 1969, 1970.  Only one sociologist had a computer of his own, IBM 140l--Jim Coleman, at Johns Hopkins.  Computing thought of as a public utility, in effect.  Most universities would not have let an individual or program buy a computer.  Only possible at populist place like UW. If you asked, someone had to actually say you couldn't have it.  Would be seen as interference with academic freedom--on this campus, not elsewhere.  HW had a good case.  Remembers going to UWCC.  Rayfield about to go.  Larry Travis about to take over.  Travis, Dean Bock were always extremely helpful.  Backed him up during site visit and with computing center.  

00:57:36	End of tape. 

Tape 2/Side 1

00:57:40	Took two rounds to get the grant.  First reaction by site visitors was that it was risky.  Demographers thought they had spend all their time operating the computers; didn't think they had to be capable.  But over the year had time to think about it. 

00:59:55	Not a hugely distinguished group then.  Ryder was; Leo Schnore beginning series of manic depressive periods; others very young, untried.  But got grant.

01:00:50	WH not sure what to do.  Talked to Merv Muller.  Muller told him to go see Dennis Katter.  Muller an old IBMer.  Strongly opposed to it.  Left in process of 360 development; many others in academic world with that experience.  Katter told him to go talk to local IBM salesman and buy what he said to buy.  HW did and it worked.  IBM in business of helping businesses set up in computing.  Knew how to hold hands.

01:04:26	Rented because not sure how long would stay with IBM.  Might need to upgrade soon.  Did upgrade equipment they rented but never paid more rent. Computer center opened 1971 or '72.  In time for release of 1970 census data.  Began working on it right away.  Exciting.

01:05:40	HW's decision that center should rotate director, unlike most centers at that time in social and biological sciences.  Reasons--demography in period of rapid change, needed new outlook periodically.  Hard on grantors.  But a good decision.  Five years the right amount of time.  Not a lot of incentive to do it, but people raised in centers expect to have to do it, a question of paying their dues.  Most centers now do rotate directors.

01:07:50	The value of what the center offers.  Hauser 's calculation when offered named professorship at Yale.  Estimated needed $75,000 for work he was doing on Center facilities.  CDE a cooperative.  Share resources, but stay within margins of grants.  New assistant professors can't cover their share, but will later.  Had $60,000 a year when HW came.  Spending a million a year by end of his directorship.  

01:12:33	Relationship with sociology department.  Different from most demography centers which are usually in separate buildings.  Princeton's elegant quarters.  Relations with department-- permeable membrane in effect.  Examples.  Taeuber and HW worked hard to prevent isolation. 

01:16:38	Jim Sweet and Larry Bumpass pushed to get policy change re purchase of computer.  Bumpass succeeded.  They'd put in for an IBM, thinking site visit committee would insist on that.  But had good committee, willing to rearrange grant request so could get the VAX.  Could shift from batch processing to interactive.  HW had to buy a machine for his 1940,1950 project.  That went to the department.  (Can be a cuckoo's egg, HW notes).

01:19:54	Poverty Institute new when HW arrived.  Had a lot of money. Harold Watts very helpful, found ways to give money when CDE getting started.  CDE has tried to pay its debts.  Family feeling. 

01:21:35	Discussing SSRI as he found it when he came.  Was put on board of directors.  Only about $60,000 left but people squabbling over use of it.  HW's amazement.  The sense of people's being in mourning for SSRI.  Charles Holt, Dick Day.  HW knew there were demographers in other disciplines.  Wanted to include them in CDE but told he couldn't think of it; SSRI was the interdisciplinary research center.  Found no one prepared to back him, including Leon Epstein, Burt Fisher, Bernie Cohen.  HW thinks there may have been a contract with Orcutt.  They must have been aware of what was going on at SSRI.  Computing and the data library had already been split off.  Bryant Kearl was in charge of picking up the pieces.

01:27:57	End of side. 

Tape 2/Side 2

01:28:04	They looked over leavings of SSRI to see what was important to save.  Data library was concern.  Others picked up on the computing end.  Three separate committees.  HW on all of them.  Very confusing.  The programming part was going big guns but losing money rapidly.  Bernie Cohen, associate dean of the graduate school, having to do something about it.

01:30:05	HW's comments on the computing facility.  Was trying to get work done.  Found it incompetent.  They were building weird large programs, taking a lot of money.  HW didn't want to get mixed up in it, since was seeking grants himself.  Another reason for doing own computing.  People involved.  Eventually HW was made director, worked out a deal with MACC.  Elton Waack, dean's man.

01:34:38	End of session. 

Second Interview Session: February 1, 1985
Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:15	More on SSRI.  Doremus and Cohen's overseeing of.

00:02:05	Newcomer's impression in 1967.  Discussing state of interdisciplinary research then.  Poverty Institute.  Watts good at giving money to interdisciplinary researchers.  War on Poverty theme in Poverty Institute.  Less emphasis on blacks than WH thinks President Johnson intended.  Poverty Institute emphasized economics--negative income tax.  Different from what a sociologist would have done.

00:08:58	Decision in CDE to keep low profile.  Develop with outside money.  Only much later asked for University money. 

00:14:38	Status of CDE as part of sociology.  Debated being an institute.  Reasons for not doing it.  Will die eventually; should be easy to do.  Discussing PI's loss of federal funding.

00:16:02	Hiring practices. CDE has several sources of funding.  First large one by Robert Hauser and David Featherman.  Karl Taeuber and HW also trained by Dudley Duncan; also Jim Sweet and Ron Friedman.  The hiring of David Featherman.  Taeuber, HW, and Glenn Fuguitt pushed for it.  Contrasts the appearances of Hauser and Featherman when being considered for position.  Hauser had been teaching; Featherman still a graduate student.  His talk not a great success.  Sociologists later ate crow and hired him.

00:19:53	The need to get new set of data to test Blau-Duncan findings.  Hauser and Featherman decided to do.  CDE supported.  New computer made it possible.  

00:22:48	End of side. 

Tape 3/Side 2

00:22:51	Question re sharing of computer.  CDE a help to people applying for grants and helps people who have to buy equipment.  The extraordinary action required at times.  Coping with open bid requirements.

00:28:48	HW's role in CDE now.  Unofficial, may be presented at times.  Example: getting the VAX.  Bumpass,  director, not prepared to go that far.  His other responsibilities at the time.  Didn't look into possibility of changing computers.  HW thinks about what could be and tries make it happen.

00:35:08	The result of getting the VAX IBM couldn't do numerical analysis.  Vax led to several important changes.  More of life of center centered on computer, e.g. mail system.  Effect on social relations.  Handling of anger.  Faculty combative in print.  Rule of waiting an hour before responding.  Faculty not good at blowing up; used to be.

00:41:30	Question re saving correspondence.  Backing up discs.  Archives could get a sampling.  Might have to seal for a period.

00:45:45	Can now deal with people at a distance.  Examples.  Work at home now possible.  James Coleman.  Olaf Sorenson to go to Harvard.  The Harvard situation.  More on the consequences of written correspondence.

00:53:44	End of tape. 

Tape 4/Side 1

00:53:47	Q. about the failure of the CDE to foster interdisciplinary research.  Department-centered nature of UW; size of UW.  Contrast at Duke.  Glenn Cain.  Outsiders may not know how to use CDE computer; students may not have incentive to learn.  Is there an atmosphere of welcome?  Charles Manski, econometrician.  Does use.  Acknowledges in publications, lists his papers in CDE listing.  Computer time is free.  A producer's coop.  May ask people to help run it--a possible deterrent.  There may be boundaries CDE not aware of, e.g. librarians object to economists borrowing and not returning publications  (SS Reading Room, 8th floor).  

01:03:26	CDE is like a Commons.

01:04:11	The 1940-50 census.  History.  Karl Taeuber, grant request to National Science Foundation.  Reaction to size of request.  (How Karl Taeuber and HW handle joint writing projects).  Don Bock's interest.  NSF committee suggestion for reshaping the request.   HW and Karl Taeuber's feeling of responsibility for carrying out project; knew wouldn't be fun.  Further steps.  Old Data for New Research published.  Conference.  Changes in Census Bureau personnel under Nixon and consequences.  HW and Karl Taeuber told to ask for money for pretest--a piecemeal approach.  Proposal reviewed by 75 people.  NSF decided do as one deal. (Q. Why so many reviewers?  Unusual size of request; competition for funds.  Largest single social science thing NSF had put money into.  Now some even larger projects.)  NSF's threat to cut budget.  Census Bureau had made estimate of cost.  Couldn't seek less than that.   (Request didn't include enough money to monitor what Census Bureau was doing.)   HW and Karl Taeuber said give the grant as proposed now or we'll quit.  NSF approved the grant. 

01:22:40	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

01:22:45	Pittsburg, Kansas.  Good labor force.  Complications of running the project.  Instructions to Maryland who sent instructions to Kansas.  Working out method for getting material directly from microfilm into computer.  Bought and installed computer in Pittsburg but couldn't get at data in it because still confidential.  So Census Bureau ran computer.  NSF advisory committee very helpful. 

01:27:43	Figuring out sampling complicated.  Foresighted decision to get cluster sample of reels from microfilm.  Genuinely random.  Reasons.  When Reagan got in, NSF budget cut; their grant cut accordingly.  Had already spent discretionary monies.  Used the 1940 clusters, and slimmed sampling fraction for 1950.  Had enough money left  to finish up 1940.  Seemed to go on forever.  Frustrations in dealing with Census Bureau.  Did nothing for a year and a half.  Then a new director, which helped.  Also HW learned how to deal with a government agency.  Explains.  Charts worked where words did not.  Still dragged.  

01:33:32	Crises that occurred.  Excellence of UW Risk Management system. 

01:34:35	End of interview.

END