UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1001
HYSLOP, CRYSTAL
Narrator:	Hyslop, Crystal
Interviewer:	Linda Lenzke
Date:		2009
Location:	Madison, Wisconsin
Oral History#:	1001
Series: 		Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

00:00:03	Start of Second Interview Session
LL: 	Today is June 16, 2009. It is a little after 6 o'clock. I am Linda Lenzke, and I am interviewing Crystal Hyslop. This is our second interview. And when we first talked in the first interview, Crystal spent a lot of time-- you talked a lot about your family, coming out, meeting Janice, raising your family with your two daughters together, how your open lives, open lesbian lives influenced your involvement in the community. At the end of last week's interview, you basically said that you were really interested in talking a little bit more about what an important role feminism played in your life, so that's going to be our starting point. 
00:00:58 
LL:	So I just wanted you to start talking a little bit about the role feminism played. And I don't know if you want to give us a little bit more of a history or whether you just want to begin with an example. But I'm going to turn it over to you, Crystal, and let you take it. 
CH: 	Yeah, I did want to get into a little bit more about the philosophy, or some people rely on religion to keep themselves together in a relationship. And you'd asked me about how did you stay committed for as long as you did? And I truly believe that the base that Janice and I operated from was a feminist base. And I think we developed our involvement in that philosophy, even as in high school students. We had similar paths that we took, equal pay for equal work, both being members of NOW at one time, National Organization for Women. So from that point in our relationship, when we got together, we were very strongly identified with women. I was strongly identified with that idea even prior to coming out and realizing that I was going to be living my life as a lesbian. So the importance of that, I think, also reflected on how we parented, how we raised our daughters, making certain that they understood that they were important, that their identities were important, that they were almost expected to present themselves in that fashion. I'm trying to explain the right to choose, women's reproductive rights, all those issues were something that we had table conversations about, even as the children were younger. And I think because of that, it was interesting to see how our lesbian relationship evolved. We started out, Janice and I, when the children were very young, being rather separatist, being more strongly with just women. Interestingly enough, at that period in time, when radical lesbian feminism was an issue, was just developing-- and Rita Mae Brown was someone that we identified with-- as I opened up, made new friends, other women-- some with children, some not with children-- there was a little hesitancy on the strong lesbian women who were very radically identified with separatist movements that you felt a little uncomfortable sometimes, even with these women, because children just weren't something that they were interested in participating with. So as the children aged, of course, we then moved away from that radical perspective of just separating ourselves from men in general and, yes, the patriarch who needs to be changed. And we had to incorporate more of almost an assimilation into the mainstream population, which then got us thinking about our positions on men and their involvement in our lives. I think the girls could probably articulate to you that they didn't have a lot of men around in their lives. They did spend time with their father, and he had a different family setting. But when they were with us, if I look back, we mostly spent our time with women friends. And we didn't really see the need to bring men into their lives. We were fulfilling whatever needed to get done. It was also important for us for the girls to see women in strong positions, being carpenters and not-so-traditional careers. So what I'm proud to say is that because of that, because we involved them in those kinds of lives, it did not limit them in participating in mainstream, that they did see women as strong role models, that they did themselves branch out and do nontraditional things, not be afraid to fix a flat tire without a wink of an eye. In fact, they would sometimes tell their friends, oh, if you can't do that, give a call to my moms, because I'm sure they've got a book or they know how to do that. So it was nice see that we were starting to raise daughters who strongly identified with the fact that women can do anything. And I think now as I'm getting older, I'm finding myself pulling back more into that wanting to just be around women type of position. We no longer have an obligation. The daughters are gone and raised. And I think I all in all am more comfortable with a strong feminist friendship circle. I notice that most of our friends have developed through our political action groups and that we don't just have movie friends. And sometimes I think that that might have been a sad thing, because I notice groups of women that really get together on a regular basis and just play cards or do-- but I'm realizing that we had devoted a lot of time to raising kids and then being active in the community, and that limited our personal space and what we did with that. So I'm hoping that we can develop in our retirement time a little bit more of a casual acquaintance with women that we've known for years but only from a political or an activist spot. I know we're very interested in retiring and getting some kind of an RV or something, because we really love to travel. 
00:07:03
LL: 	Before we talk about your future plans and your retirement plans, I want to ask you a couple of questions about-- because I'm intrigued by the role of feminism and lesbianism that for many women from our generation-- and I share this experience with you-- is I came out as a feminist as well. And a lot of lesbians today, as you indicated, have more connections that are social and less political, but still strongly identify as lesbians. One of the early commitments that you made-- and you referenced this a little bit in your interview last time-- was that you started out making a commitment with lesbian land too, with Doe Farm. Did you want to talk a little bit about what that experience was like? Because that was one of the commitments you said was early on your in your life, and that you moved a little bit more away from that separatist focus. But what was it like investing energy into Doe Farm and that separatist movement where women were feeling very strongly about having women-only space? 
CH: 	I think it was a wonderful-- Janice and I both enjoyed camping, enjoyed being outdoors. It was just a wonderful, safe space to have as women just wanting to go somewhere camping, not having to worry about-- not just allowed trucks and radios and those kinds of things, but just feeling safe. Because, again, that would have been late '70s, early '80s, and two women camping and appearing to be lesbian was not a real safe space to be in Governor Dodge Park. So when we found out about this space, we really took advantage of it. And we also took advantage of it because it was such a free space. You could walk around in the land topless, whatever, just really-- well, back then, just connecting with nature and Mother Earth. And it was nice to have the farmhouse there. I learned so much about herbs and just gardening. And it was nice to have that almost cooperative, where you could go there, work a little bit, and then partake in a meal with a few people, whomever was living in the house at the time. And then you had your campsite back away from the home. It was a great place to take the kids as little girls. They could just run around very freely and just pick up frogs and help them not be afraid of what's just out there, the sounds, just little things like that. Because we were confined to the city, as far as living in Madison was, and so for them to be able to run and play and see deer and everything was just a wonderful experience. So I think there was a great stewardship that we developed with the kids, a respect for the land, a respect for where your food comes from. They to this day are members of co-ops for food. And so I think even at an early age, without lecturing, you could show them. And once they saw it and enjoyed planting and picking and harvesting, it just became a natural interest and something that they've held onto now as adult women. I just really appreciated the quiet space-- again, coming out in a time where you didn't always feel safe-- and it was just nice to be with like-minded people, to just relax and talk and plan the world's problems and resolve things in your mind. And so that's one of the things I really appreciated having. 
00:11:02
LL: 	Another question about that experience is I've seen young girls and women-- I've also met your daughters, and they are very strong young women. Do you think that experience for them helped shape them in feeling that women space is safe space, that they could be stronger and freer in those kinds of environments? Did they ask questions about, why aren't there men here or, why aren't there any boy children here? Can you talk a little bit about their experience there? 
CH: 	Sure. That's an interesting thing you should ask, because I don't ever remember the kids saying, why aren't there boys here? I think they saw their life and their tiny little circle as being what was OK. And I'm talking now when they're four, five, six. As they got older, they were in school and had boys. You have to remember that they also went back and forth to their father's home, who had a more of a traditional setting. He had remarried and whatnot, so that they did have that. But I think they understood when they came to us, it was going to be women. And I think they really appreciated that. Their father wasn't a very strong and to this day isn't a very strong feminist-minded man. And that gets in the way now with the girls. But what I do know is it did-- when they saw women, and they were-- like, for instance, at Doe Farm and we had to put the tent up and there wasn't any big, strong guy you could say, come help me, if it took all four of us to put something up, it took all four of us. But we found the strength to do that. And I think that was a very good lesson for them, as far as learning how to be not only physically strong but mentally, not slipping back into, oh, I don't have to learn how to do this, or I don't have to attempt this. Because many times we attempted things as an all-women household and failed. It was just too hard. They would see us have to go out and get help. The first place we went to get help was a big, strong bull dyke of a woman who knew and was stronger than we were to come in and help us. So we didn't just go right over to the other side and say, OK, we need a man here. And that was by choice. But one of the things that's interesting now with the girls dating-- and one of them has a pretty steady partner-- one thing they've often complained about is, you raised me so I can't find a man that I like, because they have a lot of expectations of what they call just seeing a cooperative household. And a lot of their boyfriends have complained that the girls like to talk things to death. Well, consensus is something you come to when you resolve in a feminist household. It's not just because she said so. That's carried over into how they now expect relationships to go. And they'll sometimes say they're very disappointed in the way we raised them, because it's just making it really hard to find a compatible mate who understands what it was like to be raised in a lesbian, feminist household. And proudly enough, they don't back off on their principles. They'll go without the relationship rather than compromise. But I think it is difficult to get young men to understand where their heads are at and what they're talking about and why it's important to discuss things and share in things. One person doesn't just do this. One of the jokes that the kids would have if I were, for instance, out shoveling snow, when they were younger, they would say, oh, I guess mom is the boy today. So they did have this division of labor idea that men do this and women do that. But they then identified us in playing those roles. So it wasn't that it was unusual for mom to be doing this, because the mom switched. Some days, I carried the heavy things, and Janice didn't. But they did, in their younger years, still say-- 
00:15:21
LL: 	It's interesting, because it sounds like one of the things that they embraced and learned in your family was how important the role of feminism was and is and how living as strong women was something that they could incorporate in their lives even today. They also, it sounds like, learned a lot about gender roles, even though within the family, with you and Janice, they had two women to view. They still had their father and his relationship in his second marriage, but it sounds like they learned a lot about gender roles even with just having two women as their family members. And then I also just want to comment that it sounds like there's always this fear that lesbians are going to raise lesbian daughters, but clearly, you've raised two daughters who've identified very comfortably with their own sexual preference and are very comfortable with incorporating that into their current life. Their only complaint is that you trained them as feminists a little bit too well, it sounds like, so it makes their choice-making a little more challenging, because the bar is high. 
CH: 	Yes, and for that, I'm very pleased. That's right where we wanted it. But it also is interesting to see that they have developed very, very strong friendships with women. They have very close women friends. And I believe even one of them said in growing up, we always made sure that sexuality was something that we talked and talked and talked to death. One of the things that we always wanted for them was to protect themselves, to be aware of things. When they asked a question, it wasn't age-appropriate that we responded. It was based on their question. They need to know. They've asked this what we may see as a mature question, and they're entitled to a mature answer. So they've always been very, very educated-- HIV protection, sexually transmitted diseases, birth control-- which is something that I think in a strong feminist household, of course, that's going to be number-one priority. You take care of your body, respect it. And I believe-- from what I've seen, anyway, and the knowledge I have of their lives-- they've done a very good job of respecting themselves and carrying through on that. I do know one of the daughters I think did have some same-sex experimentation going on and just testing the waters. What was really wonderful was that without just sitting down and saying to them, it's OK if you're a lesbian, I think they just knew it was OK, that the sexual boundary is-- there is no boundary. It starts at one end, and it goes to wherever you decide to stop it. You could see that in their friends. It was very, very fun for Janice and I to see the young people come in and out of our house. The ones that were comfortable with who we were, we're just a whole array of interesting young people. Really challenging the gender roles and just seeing them grow and make their own decisions on who they were going to be. And so I really think that feminism also played a role in that, in giving them from the get-go-- seriously, we believed it, that it was OK to be who you are, and the world is out there for you to experiment and experience. And opportunities abound, and as long as you're safe and respectful to other people, we can talk about what it is you're doing now. Of course, there were areas that we said, no, really, that's just-- let's talk about that. That's a dangerous path to go down. And I suppose on a more negative note, everything wasn't all rosy with the kids. The older one was-- like a lot of parents say, the older one is easier to raise. Carmen was always the one that wasn't that interested in challenging and pushing the envelope, but Miranda was. And we had a few incidences with Miranda that got a little scary. She was experimenting with drugs. She got in with some kids that had very little parental supervision. And one of the things that Janice and I had to make a decision about was, OK, our role as a parent is to take care of this child. So if that means that sometimes we have to violate her space-- meaning go in into her room and checked because we had suspicions-- we've both been privy to drug use and whatnot, and we didn't like what we saw at a young age. So we did, at times, struggle with what I think a lot of parents struggle with, how far do I take my parental authority in invading their space? And I decided that they live in my house, and I pay rent, and I'm responsible for them, and if something goes wrong, the authorities are going to ask me what is wrong with my head. So I respectfully went in, and we discovered stuff, and we got it taken care of and got her into counseling. And to this day, she thanks us for stepping in, because I think a lot of her friends who didn't have parents who cared ended up struggling and maybe never recovering from that activity. So I guess my point is that even though you try and try your best as parents, children do make their own decisions, and sometimes they're not exactly the best ones that they should be making. And you do have to then decide, I am an authority here. I am an authority figure, and I need to step up to the plate and take care of my child, which sometimes means, yeah, you don't have rights. At this point in time, I'm telling you. So it wasn't always their participating and deciding in decision-making. We knew when to bring down the hammer and set the rules. But I think that's just necessary when you're raising young people. 
00:21:41
LL: 	Well, one of the things that you said last time when we talked was that now that your girls are raised and that they're women and they have lives of their own and they're successfully launched and you and Janice are both at points in your personal lives where you're winding down in your careers and looking towards the future, you've started to talk about what the next chapter of your life will be like and what retirement will look like. And since you have such a rich tradition already established of living your life both on a personal level and on a political level, I'd like you to talk a little bit about the more social aspects and the more recreational aspects that you're looking forward to and how you might envision the future. But then I'd also like you to talk a little bit about how you think you might stay connected politically, depending on what happens in the next decade. So if you want to talk a little bit about your dreams and plans and visions for your future as a retired lesbian, both in your work and in different roles with your daughters, where you're still a parent, but your role is very different. And you and Janice, you talked a little bit about some of the challenges that you overcame, and now you both are looking forward to enjoying each other's company in ways that maybe you haven't discovered yet. So you want to talk a little bit about that? 
CH: 	We are very excited about-- hopefully in about three years, I think-- financially we'll be able to say retirement from our current employment. One of the things that we do have to keep in mind is we are the main caretaker and family contact with her mom right now, who's in a nursing home. And she's doing well, but that's something that holds us back also from just being free spirits and getting out there. But when things settle down, one of the things that we do want to do is travel a lot. There's areas in this country that I haven't seen yet, like the Grand Canyon, those kinds of things. We have traveled worldwide as often as we can. We try to get in one major trip at least every year, if not every other year. So we've been to Greece and Italy and Great Britain and the Caribbean and different places. But we've got places we'd like to return to, and then we've got places we've never seen. So our goal is to use money wisely and make it to be for travel. We would like to, I think I mentioned earlier, get some kind of a little RV or something that we can tool around in. Several of our friends are doing that now, and I'm so envious, because they send us pictures and blog with us, and they're just having a wonderful time getting to know more and more women out there. One friend in particular, Kathe McCleave, is out RVing with I think an RVing women's organization or something. So she's got friends all over the United States that she connects with on a month-to-month basis or something, and she just loves having that freedom and that ability to travel. So that will be a very important part of our retirement. I could see us keeping our home just for a home base to come back to. We're not really thinking that much about the daughters and where they're going to be. I think they'll be able to find us, and I think our job is done, as far as raising them. I think they are who they are, and of course we're going to stay supportive and connected. And we really enjoy an adult relationship with them. They're wonderful people to just have fun with. They like to bowl, and so we'll sometimes just call them up and say, do you and the guys want to go bowling? And we just have a wonderful time. So that's very nice that they can do that with us now. They seem to enjoy some time with us. But I think in the end, one of the things that Janice and I are going to stay, of course, connected with and that we're very interested in is all of these lesbian retirement communities that are popping up. I know Martina has one I think in Santa Fe, maybe. So they're popping up all over, and we've already talked it to death that we just know that's where we're going to want to end up. I'm just not going to be comfortable after all of these years of an adverse relationship with straight people. Honestly, I just want my retirement to be with my community. We've taken all these years to build our space. 
00:26:30 
CH:	And I'm hopeful for the future. I think, yes, we'll probably see-- same-sex marriage, we'll probably see. I don't know if that's the answer to all of our problems. I don't know. I am in favor of same-sex marriage now, and if I could in Wisconsin, of course, I would do it, just because I'm an activist and political and because it's available, I will take advantage of it. But in the end, philosophically, is that what the lesbian or gay community really needs is marriage? I don't know. I know we need respect and recognition and acknowledgement. And I just can't stand the word "tolerance." I can't stand being tolerated. So my dream is that we move-- and I see it with the young people-- into a more fluid society, where this question of who you decide to love and spend your time with isn't this great, big political issue. But I don't know in my lifetime if that will happen. It just seems like this struggle, like any of the other civil rights struggles, is taking a while. But I believe this is the harder of all of them, because it just seems like all of the other protected classes still have a problem with us. So that to me says it's going to take a lot more education, a lot more young people being involved in the education process now helping us, helping the old people get through the end of-- the quality of life for them is going to come, I think, from the young people helping us make those changes, believing in us, seeing that it's OK. So we really do right now expect to be in a community. I suppose preference-wise it would be all-women retirement community. I would think that would be wonderful. But if there are some gay men around, I suppose that would be OK too. So I don't know if that answers your question or not, but I can see us always having to be just activists and helping to push that envelope and making sure that the politicking gets done and that we advance what we need. And so we probably will be little Gray-- well, I can't say anything, I have white hair now-- but Gray Panther ladies that just have to keep marching and keep promoting, pushing for total equality, not just for gay people, but for women. I'm so concerned about the fact that I just don't feel women have 100% full equality in this society and worldwide, if we really want to carry it out there. If we can fix things in the United States, there's a world out there that still treats women as third-class citizens. And children don't have what they need. So we can't let up. If you're going to stay true to the feminist role, this needs to go global, and we need to stay committed. And I think we'll do that until the end. I just don't see it going away really fast. 
00:29:41
LL: 	One thing that comes to my mind as you've talked about traveling and you've talked about your support of gay marriage, but the reality is, as you mention, is that may not happen right away. It may not happen in all the states. One of the fears that many of us have, and one of the concerns and rights that sometimes are withheld from us is that we do have significant others. And as we get older, we may need to be taken care of by health care professionals. And if you're traveling, it can vary from state to state. Do you and Janice have clearly developed documents and ways to fill in those gaps if gay marriage is not something that happens in your lifetime? Are you protected that way? 
CH: 	Yes. Yes. 
LL: 	Because to me, that seems like that would be a battle front you might find yourselves fighting is just health care for women and rights of lesbian couples to intervene in each other's decision-making. 
CH: 	Yes. We have all of-- very early on, as soon as we realized that it was available to make those kinds of legal relationships, we have wills, and we carry around at all times, especially when we travel, our powers of attorney for health care, so that if something should happen. The scary thing there is that that document doesn't always carry over as a legal document. You can still be denied access, as we know. So we do what we can legally. We carry around little folders of papers at all times. We have it in the car. We have it everywhere. We certainly had it when we were raising the children. It was very important that I had signed off to her power of attorney for taking care of the children, should she be taking them on a field trip or whatever. And that's one of the things that gay families have to prioritize and, expensive or not, spend the money on. So that's another reason why we're just going to have to stay active, just like you say. We can't just freely travel anywhere we want to-- and the older we get, there will be health issues that come up-- and be guaranteed that we're going to be allowed to make the decisions that we've decided in our will happen. And that's scary as you age. I know one of the things that the girls always said-- and it made us think, yes, this is wonderful that our community has done, by and large-- because when our children travel, they have told us that when they-- and they have traveled the world over-- they look for, in the United States, a rainbow flag. They look for a feminist bookstore. They look for the things they were raised and felt comfortable in. Sitting and coloring at Lysistrata was a happy time for them. They go back to those roots. They look for that. They go in. They're not afraid to walk up in the women's bookstore and say, ma'am, I'm from Wisconsin, and I need some help, and can you tell me blah, blah, blah? If they get lost, that's where they go for directions. They are not looking for law enforcement. They are not looking for the firefighter on the corner. They're going to their gay community center or their lesbian, feminist, women's bookstore. I think that's wonderful, because I believe that's where you go to get the right answers and the protection that you need and the acceptance that you have to have at that moment. It doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, you're someone in need, and I think nine times out of 10, that will get taken care of in one of those two communities. So that's what I want to make sure continues is that, even for the straight world, we may become this beacon of just secular humanism, perhaps, that says, the humanity matters. If you can't it get there, to come to us. We're going to be there to help you. Or certainly you can see us struggling to help ourselves. But I think as a community, when you look at all the places we tap into and all the things that we, outside of our own needs, go and try to do, it just makes me proud to be part of the gay community. And I just feel really lucky sometimes. As much as it's hard and as much as you struggle, and, yes, it's more negative this week than it was last, it's a pretty nice place to be. It's this nice space. When we're all together, it's just a heartwarming event. And as I brought friends in, straight friends, to experience that, leave your judgment aside, they walk away with a warm feeling too. So we've got a lot going for us. And we just need to keep that struggle going and keep trying, because we are committed, and we'll get there. 
LL: 	Well, Crystal, it's been an honor to interview you and hear your story. Before we end, I want to make sure, is there anything else that you wanted to add or talk about before we close this interview? 
CH: 	Really, it's been a wonderful experience. It's been a time for self-reflection, which is a good thing. But I'm really excited about the project, and I think it's very important that we get down the stories of our elders, that got us, got me, to where I'm at today, and hopefully the younger generation will appreciate hearing what we did and then learning from that. So I'm just also very honored to have an opportunity to share in this wonderful project. 
LL: 	Well, I look forward to working with you on it, and thank you very much. I learned a lot about the theme of your story, which is love makes a family, and feminism makes a family, and commitment makes a family, and living your values makes a family. And all of those things also build individuals. So thank you so much for sharing your story with me. 
CH: 	You're very so welcome.