UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #306
LUCEY, PATRICK J.

LUCEY, Patrick J. (1918-2014)
Governor of Wisconsin

Interviewed: 1985	
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Martin Dowling
Length: 1 hour, 22 minutes

Pre-Merger systems of higher education in Wisconsin; Failure of CCHE; Powerful personalities of Fred Harvey Harrington and Eugene McPhee; Their relationship with legislators; Warren Knowles, William Kellett, David Adamany and Lee Dreyfus in relation to Lucey's platform for higher education; 1970 gubernatorial campaign; Faculty support for Merger as campaign issue; Appointment of John Weaver; Politics of Merger battle, 1971; Austerity budgets; Elimination of campuses; Parochialism and Board of Regents; Effectiveness of System; Impressions of Edwin Young and Robert O'Neil; Problems of System presidency and search for O'Neil's successor; Problem of faculty exodus.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Introduction

00:00:21	Question re higher education in Wisconsin in 1950s and 1960s. PL was aware of Kohler legislation. Thought CCHE had inadequate support, had no influence on either system even after its 1966 reorganization. Brown ineffectual and powerless, Harrington and McPhee would chew him up.

00:02:37	Need for merger not as compelling in 1950s. His merger platform presented in June 1970 campaign speech. As lieutenant governor PL broke tie vote putting Green Bay and Parkside in the UW system. It would not have survived without them.

00:04:19	Harrington was treated poorly by regents. He could have defeated merger. WSU campuses would have resisted merger if he was to be system president. Comment on Harrington's relationship with the legislature. Changing relationship of University and legislature since the time of E.B. Fred's presidency due to the rise of sophisticated full time legislators.

00:07:32	Question re student violence. Made it a campaign issue in primary against Don Peterson, but had no effect on merger.

00:08:39	Impressions of Eugene McPhee; very persuasive in legislature. Example of getting an Olympic size swimming pool at Oshkosh because Harrington secured one for Madison. Wasteful competition. Merger bill in 1971 was timely because of the recent departure of Harrington and McPhee; a vacuum of leadership. 

00:10:33	Question re Kellett commission. PL not involved but adopted many of Warren Knowles' reforms.

00:11:35	David Adamany the father of merger. Their relationship dates from 1957 Proxmire campaign, and many other campaigns later. He convinced PL of the timeliness of merger c. 1970. PL also recognized growth of WSU from normal schools; missions of the two systems began to merge. But graduates handicapped by the WSU name on degree. 

00:15:58	Was merger necessary to change degree titles? Merger also necessary because of costly competition. Madison campus at a serious political disadvantage even with Parkside and Green Bay. Doctoral ambitions of Parkside and Green Bay also had to be stopped given surplus of Ph.D.'s.

00:17:45	Question re decline in quality of undergraduate teaching. Not related to merger. 

00:18:24	Support from Lee Dreyfus delighted Lucey.

00:19:06	Placement of merger platform in PL's broader political attitude. Fiscal conservatism. Tried not to exaggerate fiscal savings of merger because they would be hidden by inflation later. PL not aware of educational activity of other governors. 

00:22:39	Efforts of Joe Nussbaum re merger, played a major role in implementation and relations with the merged board of regents. 

00:24:26	June speech on merger did not catch fire because the race was still in the primary. 

00:26:12	Question re faculty electoral support. Esther Kaplan organized faculty. Bryant Kearl wrote a speech for PL on education. Kitty Barbash worked in campaign headquarters. Merger should not have been a surprise to faculty. Lost Dane county in primary to Peterson. 

00:29:26	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:29:30	Question re WSU support in campaign.

00:30:25	Recalls amount of time spent on merger, also involved with tax reform and a budget with a tax increase. Dick Weening worked hard on merger, PL's chief of staff. Nussbaum also important with responsibility for budget shop. Role of Bob Dunne increased after Weening's departure. 

00:34:53	Controversy over Weaver's appointment. Felt it was a desperate political move by the regents.  

00:39:13	Question re political tactics in 1971. Attaching merger bill to budget to try and force Republican votes. Final bill was not attached to budget, sponsored independently by Ray Heinzen. 

00:42:09	DeBardeleben from Price County appointed to board because he was a non-Madison supporter of Madison and opponent of merger. Mary Waters appointed to balance DeBardeleben. Impressions of Ody Fish, Roy Kopp, and DeBardeleben as merger opponents. WSU regents were ambivalent about merger. WSU student groups supported merger.

00:46:45	Question re strength of Republican opposition to merger. Recalls that Heinzen was a Republican. Recalls speech given before senate in summer 1971. PL did not recall joint press conference with Weaver. Wondered how he ever talked Weaver into it. 

00:48:58	Question re controversial votes; Cirilli, Heinzen, and Kreuger. Cirilli and Weening had an interesting relationship. PL said he doesn't know why these votes changed. 

00:51:50	Changes in bill after its passage not bothersome to PL. 

00:52:47	Question re austerity budgets and productivity cuts. Recalls reports from Don Percy showing savings. Recalls meeting with Weaver and Percy which revealed Percy's dominant personality. 

00:56:06	Questions re Scope report, enrollment funding formula, and the building commission.

00:58:13	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:58:25	Austerity budgets. 1971 budget had tax increase, could not ask for more in the following budgets. The times demanded austerity. 

00:59:40	Wanted to eliminate campuses but was politically impossible. Parochial representation on board of WSU system was politically damaging. Gene Murphy, former regent at LaCrosse was very strong, dominated that campuses' executive. Another example at River Falls. Attempted to overcome parochialism on merged board. 

01:06:11	Comparison of Ed Young and Weaver. Young and PL close friends. Thought he should have been appointed instead of Weaver. Tension between Weaver and Young natural given their positions in system administration. 

01:07:38	Question re how merger has worked. Never intended that flagship campus would sink. Feels that Madison has fared far better politically than if it had to depend on Dane county legislators. PL supports pay differential. Madison has more political clout in the system. 

01:10:53	PL feels regents will select as O'Neil's successor an academic who cannot handle the legislature. Recommends David Carley who would have much more legislative clout.

01:12:48	PL blames O'Neil for letting Eau Claire end run him. 

01:14:46	Question re reform of Search and Screen committee. Lawton should have put regents on the committee.

01:15:43	TAUWF did not gain much power after merger.

01:17:06	PL does not support collective bargaining on Madison campus. Star system is needed. Problem of faculty exodus is real but faculty mobility has its own value. 

01:18:27	PL argues that puritanical code against outside earnings held by the Wisconsin press is crippling to star faculty and other important people. Many excellent faculty members do their consulting outside the state to avoid this problem. This hurts industrial development around the University which flourishes in other areas. This is important to both faculty retention and industrial development.

01:21:44	End of interview.

END