UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #353
SHANNON, THEODORE

SHANNON, Theodore (1918- )
Assistant to Director of Extension; Director of Field Services and Informal Instructional Services, Extension; Dean of Extension
At UW: 1950-1983

Interviewed: 1988	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 5 hours 20 minutes

Background; Extension's position in Wisconsin; Lorentz Adolfson's leadership; School for Workers; Extension as service agency for UW; Wilbur Hanley and UW Centers; Changing state attitude towards Extension; Relations with WSU; Extension Merger in 1965 and ascendancy of Cooperative Extension; Huitt Committee; Extension chancellors; Stint in Near East; System Merger and consequences for Extension; New programs; Anomaly of Extension chancellor's position; Wilson Thiede's role in System administration; Changed responsibility of Extension chancellor in merged system; Regents' position on Extension.

First Interview Session (May 26, 1988)

00:00:02	Some background.  How he got here.  Ph.D. was in teacher education; got interested in adult education in Connecticut.  When got here immensely impressed with what UW was doing in adult education. 

00:04:52	Comments on history of Extension.  Wisconsin foremost from 1906 to 1965 in substance and funding of extension programs.  Remarkable institution.  Had a lot of support from outside UW. Faculty never really embraced it.  Taxpayers first constituency.

00:08:35	Adolfson's background.  His philosophy, progressive.  Excellent speaker.  Aware of national scene.  Receptive to ideas. Example.  Never said no, immediately.  Perhaps not often enough.  Strong, steady.  Father and brother figure to colleagues. 

00:15:12	Felt dislocated after spun off from Extension.  Q. story behind that.  TS comments on Harrington's presidency.  Recognized strength of Extension, could depend on it to help bring up UW. Recognized wouldn't do to have competing extensions.  Natural for Harrington to think of combining Cooperative and General Extension.  Expected federal funding.  Never got it.  Separated Centers off as compensating loss to General Extension for Ag College loss of Cooperative Extension.  Asked Shannon to take on Centers.  Shannon didn't want it.  Adolfson good soldier, agreed to do it.  TS thinks did a good job, but didn't enjoy it. 

00:29:07	(from voice)   Harrington and Clodius may have thought not going fast enough as Extension director.  They didn't think much of what he did for Center System.  Adolfson had built department structure in Extension.  They shared departmental structure.  Other ways cooperated.  Gradually drifted apart.

00:32:17	Adolfson had become elder statesman for UW.  Health began to decline.  Has heard he was encouraged to retire.  Ted and Adolf very close.  Plenty of money for Extension then.

00:37:30	Scarcity of space.   Main office in Home Ec Building.   Frances Zuill helped Extension lobby legislature to get rid of them. 

00:39:25	Legislature generous to Extension.  And had USAFI, and outstanding correspondence program.  So had venture capital.  Could experiment.  Brought first person here in field of aging, pioneered work on alcohol abuse.  TS found it very exciting place to be.  Had opportunities go elsewhere.  Liked being between research and practice.  UW Extension progenitor of Milwaukee, Parkside, Green Bay. 
 
00:46:04	Q. re School for Workers.  Big problem was directorship.  Discusses.  Schwartztrauber, Ullrickson.  A lot of sparring, dirty tricks perpetrated on School for Workers.  Extension had business department, reflected views of Business School.  So internal troubles.  Fleming left 1952.  Adolfson solved problem by appointing Ed Young. 

00:54:15	Survey Research Lab.  Extension was asked to take it over. 

00:55:23	Extension became useful agency for UW.  Example of print shop. 

00:56:29	Photo lab, BAVI.  Henry Duwe shepherded print shop.  The International Cooperative Training Center.  History of it.

01:03:42	Wilbur (Bill) Hanley.  His jobs; his personality.   

01:09:30	Reputation.  E.B. Fred, Fowlkes disliked him.  Competent but didn't fit in.

01:12:08	Adolfson may have brought Shannon here to dilute responsibilities of Hanley, a challenge to dean's authority.   Clash over appointment of Green Bay Center head.  Nelson Savides, good person to interview.  Thiede and Shannon proposed him.  Education man.  Hanley opposed.  Adolfson threatened resign.  

01:20:35	More on Hanley's personality.  Well read.  People complained about his rigidity.

01:22:40	Hanley resisted strong push to turn Centers into community colleges.

01:24:38	End of side.

01:24:39	(from voice)   Major role in resisting community college idea.  Consequences.  Implications for vocational system.  Hanley thwarted efforts to close some centers

01:33:16	Getting new buildings for Centers, 1960-1965.  Ahrnsbrak got first one. 

01:36:32   	End of First Interview Session 

Second Interview Session (June 1, 1988)

00:00:01	Golden Years.  Illustration of financial amplitude.

00:03:39	Appointment as dean.  FH offered TS head Green Bay or Parkside.  Fred Olson good person interview, UW-M.

00:08:40	State attitude to UW changing.  Less money, agencies taking on Extension functions.  TS remembers talks with Clodius and Cassidy re budget.  Appointed budget person.  Henry Dewe, business manager, wizard at juggling funds to keep solvent.  Financial problems continue to present.  Reagan administration slashed funds.

00:15:14	TS had shaped considerable par of Extension programs as associate dean, e.g. program on aging. 

00:21:45	On consumer affairs. 

00:26:00	Education for women--met with Martha Peterson and Kathryn Clarenbach.  Proposed working together.  They professed interest but later went off in own direction.

00:29:17	(from voice).   Extension went ahead with women's education.  TS now good friend K. Clarenbach.  Later people tired of program they offered on Madison campus.  Wanted Extension to take over.  Fleming proposed TS hire K. Clarenbach.  He refused, but she was hired while TS away. 

00:37:00	Child care organizations another new program.

00:38:40	University Extension as exponent of Wisconsin Idea. Comparison University Extension and Cooperative Extension.  

00:44:03	TS continued go deans meetings even after Extension merger.

00:45:58	Relations Extension and Wisconsin State Universities (WSU) (reference is Strother to Shannon memo, 1954).  Haas, Eau Claire, cooperation on joint appointment.  Other cases.  UW didn't like joint appointments with, but Extension always popular in state.  UW also uncomfortable with Extension credit courses.

00:57:35	Platteville and Extension.

01:03:08	Ahlgren and Elvehjem close.  CE wanted Ahlgren on staff, or at least at dean's meetings.  General Extension low opinion of Cooperative Extension (except campus faculty).  Second raters.  Little in common.  TS favored merger.  Thought University Extension would prevail.  Opposite happened.  Cooperative Extension could organize politically.  Thinks Cooperative Extension contributed to demise of family farm.  Began moving into General Extension turf, e.g. community development.  Merger sensible, division urban/rural disappearing.  4H not happy. McCarty and Radio & TV.  (Extension did first experiment with TV.)

01:16:28	TS thought General Extension would prevail "we were the academics".

01:17:58	TS proposed Huitt chair committee.  Mistake.  Too compliant.  Huitt supposed to design structure, then asked to propose names for director.  Shouldn't have mixed two jobs.  FH criticized by University Committee for failing follow search and screen procedures.  Committee didn't want McNeil.  McNeil told Shannon wanted be chancellor not due interest Extension but as stepping stone to a presidency.

01:25:03	FH should have named a General Extension person head because represented whole institution.  TS recommended Adolfson.

01:26:40	(from voice).   TS likes be second in command.  FH not likely appoint Adolfson.  Thought him gutless (also said this of E.B. Fred).  TS very angry at appointment McNeil, as angry as would have been at appointment of Ahlgren.  Shannon left for Near East in July 1966.

01:35:02	DM's effort get TS take other jobs, e.g. one in Washington.

01:36:55	TS came back for Fleming inaugural at Michigan.  Irv Wyllie asked TS be dean Extension in Kenosha, but TS determined come back.  Visited Wisconsin, talked to Harrington.  Group of men in outer office.  Harrington told TS they were regents pressuring Harrington to appoint Ahlgren after McNeil left.

01:39:45	TS speculates Vandeberg has same view General Extension as TS has of Cooperative Extension.

01:40:55	McNeil appointed Cooperative Extension budget man to handle merged Extension budget.  Not as strong as General Extension man.  Extension budget needs a lot of bending.  Harley too rigid.  General Extension never good planners.  "Winged it."  Cooperative Extension carefully organized.  Ag furious to lose Cooperative Extension.  Harrington wanted UW to have it, not just Ag.  Cooperative Extension people glad get out from under Pound.  And intended run it.  Ag used to cannibalize Cooperative Extension resources.  TS doesn't think Ahlgren intended restore directorship of Cooperative Extension to Ag dean.

01:48:58	Madison campus doesn't give a damn for Extension, but a superb base to build Extension on.  Not possible under merger.  So better have separate instrumentality. 

01:50:50	Q. re Clodius.  Pulled a lot of fast things, e.g. dean College Pharmacy.  Supportive in program for training foreign administrators.

01:53:58	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session June 9, 1988

00:00:01	His job in the Middle East.  Origins of program to train Third World administrators.  TS back 1968.  Program began 1969.  How the program was run.  End of Ford Foundation funding.  More on program.

00:17:56	George Strother.  Cooperative programs put under General Extension--Youth Development and Family Living.

00:22:02	Human Resources Development.  Amorphous.  

00:24:30	Relations between General and Cooperative Extension at the time.

00:28:07	Stevens Point, Stout resistance to central coordination of Extension. 

00:29:09	History of relations, i.e. Milwaukee.

00:33:10	Merger of System again raised questions of relations.  Extension and state campuses coordinating committee developed to iron out questions.  Anomaly of chancellor's position.  Coordinating work of other chancellors.  Had to have authority backed up by System Administration and regents.  Signals never came.  Function always in question.  Would take special qualities.  Can't use clout.

00:38:37	Strother, Ahlgren.  The serious jurisdictional problems on campus.  Ahlgren seen as Cooperative Extension man.  Funding declining.

00:45:25	Impression that General Extension not getting what used to.

00:46:48	The difficulties.

00:48:18	Q. re choice of Evans.  Circumstances of Shannon's candidacy.  General Extension unhappy at choice of Evans.

00:53:01	Evans' qualities.

00:54:23	Unproductive period for Extension.

00:55:53	Thiede's role.  Background.  Was expected to be "our man in System".  His view of his role.  He chaired Extension Coordinating Committee.  Didn't see self as special pleader.  So didn't do job Extension needed.  Center System in revolt and badly run, and University Extension badly run.  Could have stepped in as deans do for troubled departments.  Acceptable act.

01:05:31	Did he have power to step in?  An anecdote.  Didn't have personality to exercise authority.  Shannon thinks he felt new administration, O'Neil, Kauffman, didn't appreciate him.  They never asked his opinion.

01:13:20	University preparing to teach adult students, saw Extension as being in the way.

01:16:17	Q. re Extension Faculty Committee.  Shannon not involved.

01:18:35	Shannon didn't favor integration.  Reasons.  Need for more funding.

01:22:47	(from voice).   Job of Extension administrators.  Can't let lectures become obsolete.  Teachers also administer.

01:24:30	Have to coordinate what campuses offer.  See that funds are used for Extension.  Have to equalize access for people in state.  People in Superior getting only what UW Superior has to offer.  Takes a lot of program advising.  Regents are reaffirming this.  Won't let campuses eliminate Extension administration.  Shannon has been counseling regents.

01:30:00	Re evaluation, chancellors can't be trusted to evaluate.

01:32:33	Have to have more money to do proper job.  

01:34:01	What he thinks Madison is upset about.  TS would agree if Madison could handle whole extension program.  But can't under merger.  Extension administration lean.

01:36:06	Regents will make joint appointments legal today at meeting.  TS says Madison should be unique but can't be under merger.  Kind of Extension organization needed--a state-wide organization.  OK decentralization, OK faculty part of campuses.  But centralized administrative structure.  1982 was decentralized but left extension machine in place.  To be reevaluated in 1992.  Regents are reevaluating now to handle restiveness.

01:45:22	Boyle in with regents.  Regents will try so spell out in more detail how Extension to operate.  Madison wants eliminate joint appointments.  Shannon thinks can be solved.  Madison doesn't like outside agency planning programs, distributing funds.

01:51:13	End of Third Interview Session

End of Oral History #353