UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #296
YOUNG, WILLIAM H.

YOUNG, William H. (1912- )
Graduate Student; Professor of Political Science; Budget Officer
At UW: 1939-1941; 1947-1983

First Interview
Interviewed: 1984	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 6 hours

University budget issues in 1950s: faculty salaries, use of tuition income, land purchase and building program; Programs competing for state funds; Changes in presentation of budget to regents, governor's office and Legislature; Enrollment funding formula; Origins of Merger problem; Committee on Functions and Policies; Push for Merger in 1953 and 1955; Working under governors Oscar Rennebohm and Walter Kohler; Establishment of UW-Milwaukee and efforts to upgrade it; False premises of 1971 Merger legislation; Hilldale Shopping Center; Development of clinical practice pay plan for Medical School; Issues surrounding firing of John Bowers; Consequences for Medical School and University.
	
Second Interview
Interviewed: 2002	
Interviewer: Barry Teicher, Crawford Young and Matthew Dull
Length: 3.75 hours

Childhood and education; Depression era; UW Department of Political Science from the 1940s to the1970s; Faculty members, including Llewellyn Pfankuchen, Frederic Ogg, John Gaus, Grayson Kirk, Clara Penniman, Fred Clarenbach, Leon Epstein, John Salter, and Henry C. Hart; State politics; Governor Rennebohm; UW budget in the 1950s; Center for Development; Political science department contributions to public service.

FIRST INTERVIEW

Tape 1

00:00:01	Started in 1949 with Rennebohm, then worked part time for about a year with Kohler, until 1951.  Involved in budget at UW until 1963.  Never quit teaching.  Was brought in when UW in trouble with Kohler.  Describes the issue and the subsequent handling of student fee income.
 
00:10:05	Another decision was how much salary increase would be authorized for the faculty.  Explains. 

00:12:33	Other cause of dissension was University's acquisition of property south of University Ave.  Legislature considered it a violation of good faith, even if not a legal violation.  University's position was, was saving money by buying when could get a good price.  May have been a reason for state's clamping down on student fee account--belief that money was being used to buy property.

00:15:45	Republicans in power in both houses.  But there were factions among Republicans--old Progressives vs. conservatives.  Is discussing politics of the period.

00:22:25	Question about shortage of buildings.  Wisconsin constitution forbade borrowing for building.  State had created a fund to be used for building, $40 or 50 million, saved up during war and after.  But a source of conflict, since some legislators preferred used the money in the fund for general fund, rather than raising taxes.  Depended on pressure for use of money.  Highway people always wanting to use it.

00:28:32	End of side.

00:28:34	In late 1950s, circumvented ban on borrowing by creating a dummy corporation.  Eventually constitution was amended to authorize borrowing.  Discussing the present setup.  Idea of dummy corporation was thought up by McPhee, McIntyre, and WY.  Precedent in corporation that managed athletic fees and dormitories.

00:33:11	They knew an enrollment increase was coming.  WY investigating state colleges when working for Rennebohm, and traveled with McPhee visiting all of them.  Went on working together after CCHE formed.  McPhee a shrewd political operator.  Office in capitol.  Could muster a lot of votes.  Panzer a good friend of McIntyre and speaker of senate, so could introduce legislation.  Got the dummy corporation plan through easily.  Student fee income would be the guideline to determine the amount of borrowing for buildings.  Benefited both UW and state colleges.  Problem was to agree on specific buildings.

00:39:56	Building commission set up under Rennebohm.  Took time to get experience.  WY designed the building commission law.  There was a State Planning Board.  Mission grew out of New Deal legislation requiring states have an agency to approve projects for financing.  Planning agency was nearly defunct by late 1940s.  A lot of people didn't want to revive it.  Dominated by a refugee from Highway Commission. But WY used it as a model.  Building Commission members served 6-year term.  Trying to avoid domination by powerful legislators.  University never had much clout in legislature.  Were most powerful when Norm Anderson was speaker of the House.  Most Madison legislators never had much power.  Always rivalry with Milwaukee.  So better to get building planning out of haggling that would go on in legislature.
 
00:47:24	Does WY have anything to add to library story?  First building program was for between $15 and 25 million for whole state.  Library far more expensive than any other buildings being asked for.  School aids a competing program.  School districts being reorganized at same time.  People primarily responsible for getting bill passed were three people in Assembly (Thompson, Nichols, and Clark).  Rejected Senate's attempt to cancel whole business.  Would have meant no progress.  Describes the bargaining that went on.  A lot of people claim credit and deserve it, but those three got the library appropriation, and the other appropriations, approved.  

00:53:27	Bill Clark, Foster Porter, Melvin Laird had produced a report recommending redistricting schools, and an incentive aid program.  Reduced from 5,000 to 800 school districts.  The programs were hooked together, along with welfare reform.
 
00:57:20	End of side.  

Tape 2

00:57:22	Question about use of surplus.  WY had nothing to do with UW budget while working downtown.  Did building program because someone had to collect a list from all the agencies and put something together.  In hindsight UW might have spared problems in future if had used surplus to raise faculty salaries, but that's hindsight.  Regents were conservative, managing University in a business-like way.  Faculty not greatly discontented.  Not until '53 or '54 that faculty salaries up to pre-Depression level.  No one anticipated upcoming demand for faculty, and necessity to pay high salaries.  Fred knew WY got along with Rennebohm and Kohler, and Peterson in bad graces so to be kept at home.  So appointed WY to deal with people downtown.
  
01:02:58	Faculty as greedy as any other group in wanting high salaries.  Mentions fuss about McMurray case and about American history requirement--as indication of mood of period.  Thinks McCarthy spared UW because would lose him votes in state.
 
01:05:41	When WH began budget work, Regents given a list with every faculty member's salary on it.  Published in Capitol Times.  Didn't give them time to think of policy.  And weren't qualified to handle minutiae of budget.  Only when began thinking in terms of percentage raises did Regents begin thinking in terms of policy, comparison to other institutions. 

01:08:02	UW had always used merit as basis for salary increase.  Not across-the-board.  So had to discuss individual merit.  Would pick a name almost at random.  The other controversy was the fringe benefit one.  Benefits were low, but more gratifying to ask for immediate salary raises, rather than retirement benefits.  After a time could present budget in terms of a policy.

01:13:17	Problem with across-the-board is it goes to everyone including people who are planning to leave.  Money wasted.  WY thinks better to leave University free to make decisions rather than be tied to an across-the-board policy. 

01:14:46	Groups in legislature always wanted raises spread across-the-board.  Ag people on 12-month salaries; people in L&S on 9-months.  Appeared lower during Depression so not reduced so much then.  So higher now.  County agents and others putting on pressure.  State college people also wanted across-the-board raises.  CCHE sometimes recommended.

01:18:31	UW preserved to end legal right to dispose of salary appropriation, but didn't have moral right; had an agreement with JFC.  Couldn't defy legislative intent because would be penalized in next go-around.

01:21:35	WY pushed practice with deans that they not give out all the money they got; keep some in reserve for emergencies and special circumstances.  Discusses.

01:25:12	Q. Whether budget department takes in to account more and less aggressive deans.

01:25:59	End of side.

01:26:01	No, and why.

01:28:54	An example of encouraging a dean to ask for something.  Ag includes research projects in its budget--a research budget.  Everyone expects it.  So biochemistry graduate student working with a professor is included in research budget; in L&S chemistry department, is classified as instruction.  L&S ought to have a research budget, too.  Ingraham skeptical.  Reason was feared if budget cuts, research budget would be cut first.  But WY and others felt research, after sputnik, was popular, and not likely to be cut.  Turned out to be right; could have been wrong.  Legislature didn't give a lot, but did give some.  Reference to struggle for WARF funds for social science.

01:34:33	A long struggle to get even natural sciences in L&S to put salaries on research grants.  Reaction was, money might disappear.  But budget people pushing, so could keep other things, like library, going with instructional appropriation.
 
01:36:39	Discusses problem of salaries for scientists.  Ingraham had labored to keep a balance.  Still a problem--computer scientists, now.  No simple answer.  If scientists' salaries paid from grants, meant higher grants and more overhead for UW.  Economics has circled whole econ faculty through Poverty Institute to get higher salaries established.  Example of Math Research Center.

01:42:49	Biggest research fund came from WARF.  Rest from Number 9 Fund, old research fund.
 
01:44:45	Discussion of use of overhead.  Used for wide variety of purposes by other universities.  Here it was feared the auditors would crack down if use of overhead abused.

01:49:33	Explains why not possible to answer question whether some of overhead used for other campuses.  In a budget, some money has to be spent right away or will be lost; other money, such as overhead, never lapsed, so can be spent last.   You had to end the year in the black.  Very difficult to keep everything even.  So charged everything they could to accounts that weren't flexible.   The problem when the federal government, trying to dump some of its money, gives it to the University in June, with end of fiscal year a month away.

01:52:54	End of side.

Tape 3

00:00:01	Question re surplus.

00:02:08	The topic: formulating the budget.  Up to the time Young came, the budget presented downtown as line items, even though in categories.  Had to be defended almost position by position, and item by item.  Problem was to find a formula that was easy to understand, covered everything, and not misleading.  Formula decided on was cost per student, multiplied by estimated number of students.  Called "Enrollment Funding Formula".  

00:07:59	Still had to break down by positions and categories.  Did it almost arbitrarily.  Thus aggregated the budget.  An example of why the other system becoming impossible: Fred was asked how many typewriters the University had.  Not a question a president should have to be able to answer.  

00:11:18	Three categories in budget:  instructional, research, public service (hospital, farms etc.).  So costs of research and public service wouldn't be tied to instruction.  Otherwise, cost per student seemed incredibly high.  

00:15:53	Discussing budget presentation in 1940s: aggregated by unit--the colleges, etc., not by function.

00:17:05	Young's appointment a reproach to Peterson.  Fred called him in.  WY didn't know how long it was to be for.  WY thinks Peterson suspected him of planning the whole thing with Rennebohm.  Discussion.  WY's proposals an implicit criticism of how Peterson had handled budget.  WY mentions experience with budget planning during war.  

00:21:27	WY had been critical of state budget also.  Dominated by accountants.  Q. re Cafferty.  Not an appointment.  No change in titles.  Fred found it easier to work with Cafferty.  But Cafferty 5th or 6th on list of people  consulted.  Q. how much Baldwin involved.  Would be when Ag budget being discussed, and perhaps L&S.  Fred always there; would certainly consult with Baldwin when policy involved.  

00:26:32	Fred and Elvehjem really not comfortable sitting around discussing details about budgets. Tedious, time consuming.  

00:28:20	End of side

00:28:21	Government's office and Joint Finance Committee accepted the new budget very well.  In 1953 University under suspicion due use of student fees and purchase of property.  So, very cautious in presenting budget.  Budget so conservative that couldn't be cut.  Has been criticized for not asking for enough.  Kohler's staff on the watch.

00:31:09	WY's impression about existence of the surplus was that both Peterson and board regents were proper businessmen and liked to have something set by, liked to be in the black.  Not the state system.  Wants everything spelled out in detail.  Doesn't want extra sums lying around.
 
00:33:02	Discussing the research budget.  That you don't mention esoteric research projects, rather, something of use to the state or to health.  But in WY's experience no one ever questioned research topics in the spirit of Proxmire's "Golden Fleece" awards.

00:37:50	Hearings were staged.  Real business went on in night sessions.

00:39:13	Coordinating Committee for Higher Education (CCHE).  In WY's time not yet doing a real budget.  No staff.  McPhee and WY would get together.  Discussing CCHE.  Just another layer, then.  Talking about the layers, then and, even worse, now.

00:45:20	Q. re hardest part of budget.  Answer: putting dean's requests into something that could be explained.  Discusses.  Funding formula ended that problem.  Until late seventies when began anticipating decline that didn't occur.  [Voice fading out here.]  Began with Lucey.  [Very low; turn up volume].
  
00:53:05	The increasing refinements in the formula.  Separating first two years, second two years, and graduate students.  Reasons.  Subdivided even further after merger.  Percy dividing by discipline.  WY thinks loses its value, no longer simple.

00:56:32	End of side.

Tape 4

00:56:34	What is a student?  Anyone taking one credit hour?  Depends on what trying to show. [Switching mikes].

00:58:28	Background of merger problem.  In 1950 Madison established Committee of Functions and Policies.  Was to develop a program for the future.  One part of committee looked at state colleges, and recommended closing all but four.  State colleges saw it as a declaration of war.  State colleges began aggressive promotion of staff and facilities in state capital.  More talk of rivalry.  Idea of merger was that it would submerge rivalry.  Milwaukee a major scene of rivalry--the state college and UW Extension.  Competition seemed acute.  No pressure to put it under aegis of state colleges rather than UW.  But state colleges would want something in return.  So, many difficulties in negotiations.  Regents and Madison didn't really want Milwaukee.  Saw it as detracting from Madison.

01:05:43	Milwaukee merger, CCHE, and School of Mines at Platteville turned over to state colleges, also Stout Institute.  Kohler wanted complete merger but frustrated by strong lobby that included Rennebohm and Tom Coleman (a Taft supporter; Kohler an Eisenhower supporter).  State colleges probably favored merger.  Real battle was between Madison campus and governor's office.  WY doesn't think any question but that Milwaukee would be a substantial institution.

01:10:01	Leader of Milwaukee Extension, Parkinson, a very aggressive man.  WY was told that a deal was cut making Klotsche head of merged institution.  Klotsche not an aggressive person.  School of Education was strongest school. In Madison view, L&S school would have to be developed.  But WY doesn't recall Klotsche offering a program to do that.  No specific plan presented.  When budget presented, easy to discourage much investment in Education School.  Building an issue.  For a while the idea of moving the campus was considered.  Regents visited Duluth where University of Minnesota had moved a campus from downtown to top of hill.  Klotsche never put aggressive demand for larger share of money.  Harrington as vice president under Elvehjem, pushed for greater funding of Milwaukee.
 
01:17:04	Discussing how political science worked to strengthen political science department at Milwaukee.

01:21:57	WY doesn't recall being pushed vigorously by Klotsche to increase aid, but does recall being pushed by Harrington to put more money in budget.

01:22:47	[voice faint]   Elvehjem not interested in this kind of thing.

01:23:39	Elvehjem not an insecure person; not in awe of Harrington.

01:24:55	Harrington had a highly developed sense of where he wanted the University to go.

01:25:15	End of side.

01:25:20	Fred and Elvehjem satisfied to keep the University the way they knew it.  Harrington did want to change.  Eventually lost support of regents and legislators.

01:27:26	Impetus to merger of state colleges derived from formation of Green Bay and Parkside.  They had expected to handle all 4-year programs.  Felt betrayed.  No state colleges on diagonal line southeast of Green Bay through Madison.  And if another reapportionment, balance of power would be in southeast Wisconsin.  Furthered by Wilbur Renk. Wanted to run for senate.  Promised creation of another college down there.  George Molinaro picked up on it.  Good for him politically.  WY doesn't know impetus for Green Bay.  So extraneous factors involved in motivation to create these two institutions.  State colleges thought it outrageous; breach of CCHE, friendly relationships.  Became great supporters of merger, when Lucey proposed it.

01:32:12	Q. re stronger basis of support for state colleges, UW needing to balance that.  Reapportionment occurred in 1970.

01:34:18	WY thinks Adamany was responsible for merger.  Ph.D. here and then taught in Whitewater.  WY doesn't know whether Lucey needed persuading.  Doesn't think he'd admit it if he did.

01:35:57	The false premises of merger.  Lucey et al saw higher education system that needed contracting, with declining enrollments.  But would any board be allowed to contract a system.  Legislature would have final say and wouldn't agree to it.  A shrewd politician would take advantage of position to turn down regents' plan for contraction and win voters' approval.  Government isn't managed by data.  If constituents opposed, legislators will oppose.  (2) If misadjustment in salaries, e.g. as between Green Bay and state colleges, and you hope merger will make it possible to solve that, it won't happen.  Everyone out to get benefits and will keep fighting.  Governor and state legislature in the end have to make the decision. 

01:41:35	(3) a central administration can't develop a challenging program for development without money to do it.  No such money available.  All nailed down.  If really want to raise quality of education in state colleges, then do what was done in Milwaukee--cooperation at department level.  Uniting at top doesn't do this.  Would have taken years to work it out, if possible at all.  WY pointing out that state colleges would have been a market for Madison Ph.D.'s.  Is discussing the advantage of employing people at high salaries.
  
01:48:15	Question re failure to do study on how merger would work out.  WY comments on studies.  Says he thinks Adamany and Lucey probably thought they knew how it would work out.  Discussing Adamany's motivation.  WY thinks a genuine concern.  Mentions decline in undergraduate teaching load for faculty in 1960s.  Was possible under enrollment funding formula.  But actual cause was scarcity of available faculty in 1960s.
 
01:52:40	Level of undergraduate instruction in Madison has always been higher than in state colleges, and WY has been in all of them.

01:52:29	End of session.  WY commented off tape on how teaching was being done in the classrooms he visited--going over pages of the textbook--the textbooks provided by the college. 

Third session

Tape 5

00:00:02	How Rennebohm heard about WY.  Eventually met with Rennebohm several times a week.  

00:05:15	WY's job.  (Division of Departmental Research).  Troubles Welfare was having.  Young criticized by Capitol Times for secrecy.  Comments.

00:09:28	Rennebohm's personality and way of working.  Was politically ambitious, but had a bad heart.  Politically lucky.  His campaigns.
	
00:13:47	Conservative as to what government could do.  But compassionate.  Not a snob.  Could talk to people of all classes.  Kept his word.  Didn't flaunt his position.  Outgoing, friendly, but tough.  

00:17:16	His pharmacy employees tended to be subservient.  Not an innovator as a governor.  Proud of Wisconsin for its lack of corruption.  Not a great public speaker.  Smart; not well-read; experienced.
 
00:22:23	Admired Fred but had trouble getting along with him--too indirect. 

00:24:43	The State College survey.  Was done in preparation for putting together a building program. 

00:26:50	Communist scare not a factor in any of matters on which dealt with Rennebohm, so WY doesn't know his attitude.

00:27:50	Q. re surplus Rennebohm built up.  Not intentional.  Building program, school aids reform, and welfare revision were expected to cost a lot.  Difficult to estimate return from state taxes then.  

00:29:23	End of side.

00:29:25	Continuing explanation of surplus.  Conservative estimate of income; didn't need surtax.  Earl had same problem. 

00:31:30	Kohler's personality.  Working with him.  Suave, polite, reserved.  Had political ambitions.  Support of Eisenhower, separated him from regular Republican organization--Coleman, et al.
  
00:35:52	Major issue was reapportiontment.  Big issue during first term.

00:37:22	Pressure on Kohler to appoint Rennebohm regent.  Kohler delayed reappointing Campbell because he was senile.  But had influential friends.  All regent appointments are competed for.

00:40:09	Mrs. Kohler a liability to his career.

00:41:32	WY's comparison of Rennebohm and Kohler, as people to work for.

00:43:37	Kohler and Rennebohm never got along.

00:44:12	LS quotes Kohler's comment to Fred that teaching was better in state colleges than in University.  WY comments.  There are always people downtown that are critical of the UW.  If you associate with them you pick it up.  Kohler associated with McIntyre a good deal.  The two governors that were best governors for the UW.  Q. re influence of Teachers' Union report on salaries.  WY doesn't think had much influence, though the figures were used.

00:48:35	Q. re State Budget Committee report on University Expansion.  WY not involved at all.  But to neutralize the criticisms, WY proposed in the budget that the UW pay off the obligation--a sum of about $80,000.  They didn't approve it, and it was dropped, ceased to be an issue.  New leadership not as upset by it all.  WY thinks Peterson would have had support of regents to do what he was doing.  Fred may or may not have known about it.  Not interested in that end of things.  Oscar was critical of University buying up land in anticipation of changes of price.  Buy it only when knew it was needed.  WY wished Peterson and regents had discussed it with people down town before doing it.  Regents and Peterson used to being left alone.  Attitude of leaving UW unscrutinized was changing.  Kohler principal person who changed it.

00:54:58	LS citing legislators' criticisms of University in 1953.  WY points out that in fact UW got everything it asked for that year.  Didn't ask for much.

00:56:57	End of side.

Tape 6

00:56:58	WY helped design 51-53 building program with Kohler.  Moved up priority of bacteriology building.  Fred and Baldwin had nothing to do with it. 

00:59:48	Discussing merger bill in 1955.

01:03:12	Q. re regents.

01:05:04	Discussing Hilldale.  Gives background.  Rennebohm's role.  Reference to Elwell, WARF and why money not available.  WY presented negotiations to Regents instead of Rennebohm or Fred.  Reasons.

01:15:53	Reasons Hilldale development was delayed.  First shopping center in town looked like speculative investment.  

01:18:18	Discussion of allocating Hilldale income to social sciences.

01:19:50	Discusses current enlargement of Hilldale.  Reasons being done.   Background of decision to retain a grocery store after A&P left.  Alternatives to present expansion.  Flak from displacing Farmers' Market and how solved.

01:24:30	Discussing early notion of having Ag Campus in Hill Farm area. 

01:25:21	The amount of money put on tax roll.  Encounter with Mayor Dyke.

01:26:26	End of side.

01:26:27	Deliberate policy to get established merchants a reason for success of Hilldale.

01:27:53	The issue of the Medical School and Dean John Bowers.  Background.  The Hamilton survey and report.  Recommendations entailed spending a lot of money.  Frightened Fred.  He got Ovid Meyer and WY to review proposals and attempt to modify them into something more realistic.  WY and Meyer worked for about a year, consulting with departments.  Most important recommendation was to change salary system in Medical School.  Clinical people getting small salaries, because of income from fees.  Clinical Practice Pay Plan was designed to raise basic salaries so more incentive to do research, but put a ceiling on amount an individual could get in fees.  The endless debates.  Bowers' appointees in favor of it.  People from Middleton regime, most of clinical factor, bitter.  

01:33:00	WY had to persuade other deans to consent to proportionately higher sum for Medical School. 

01:34:45	Clinical faculty given choice of joining or not.  Question of use of surplus.  Dean wanted it for whole school.  Departments insisted be kept by department.  Surgery department issue. Elvehjem close friend of Curreri.  WY comments on Bowers.  WY felt had to back Elvehjem when his authority was undermined. Bowers has said WY fired him.  

01:40:19	WY thought Elvehjem wrong on several aspects but had to back him.  How Elvehjem could have handled it.  WY comments on Curreri's continuing kindness and friendship to him in spite of this issue.  Elvehjems in same social set as Curreri.  The amount of time surgeons spent talking to him.  WY felt UW would have looked very bad downtown if kept practice of small salaries and huge fees.  Plan has subsequently been modified.  

01:45:28	Mohs didn't join plan.  Would have been one of hardest hit.  WY was the one who had to defend the plan in meetings with faculty.  Was not a pleasant job, very difficult. Matt Werner, like Bowers, blamed WY for the fight between Bowers and Elvehjem.  

01:51:04	Discussing the control of excess fee income by department chairmen, could be in millions.  Curreri controlled it in surgery department.  Wouldn't have mattered who was appointed chairman.

01:52:18	Question re impact of the whole affair on the University. 

01:54:39	End of side.

Tape 7

01:54:40	Concludes comments on Medical School. Reference to competition for funds in Enzyme Institute.  The tragedy for Elvehjem.  Says again of Fred and Elvehjem that they didn't like controversy, wanted things to stay as they were.  WY has wondered how it all might have been handled differently.

02:02:19	End of interview.

SECOND INTERVIEW

First Interview Session (June 17, 2002): Tapes 8-9

Tape 8

00:00:01 	William Young grew up in Coraopolis, PA, a small suburb of Pittsburgh. He remembers the town as having a good school system.

00:01:21 	WY discusses his family life: five children, his father’s job as a bank representative. When WY was a junior in high school, the family moved to a small town named Charlereaux about 30 miles down the river. His mother’s family lived in the same town. His maternal grandfather graduated from Rutgers in Greek/Latin, but did not have much of a career. He was a reader, however, and introduced WY to Charles Dickens.

00:05:54 	WY describes his decision to attend the University of Pittsburgh. He told his family he intended to study law. “In those days you had to have a purpose, or nobody would understand. The idea that you went to school to learn anything was not common. You had to have a purpose.” His interest in law did not last.

00:7:15 	He entered college in the fall of 1929, about a month before the stock market crash. During his sophomore year, his father lost his job.  WY says that he has been self-sufficient since that year. He lived with his brother briefly, then lived in a fraternity. 

00:09:26 	As an undergraduate WY took courses in government and history. His senior year he took classes in business law and accounting, "to get a job."  He graduated in June 1933, “the worst year in the history of the country, as far as I can tell.” He looked for a job in Pittsburgh for several months and finally obtained a job at Gimble’s department store selling toys for Christmas. His salary was $15 a week. 

00:11:00	WY describes the impact of the Depression: Pittsburgh and the steel industry; working for an insurance salesman. 

00:14:18 	WY describes his exposure to many Utopian schemes that were popular during the period, and talks about the appeal they held. He says some of his interest in socialism was a rejection of his father’s religiosity.

00:16:09 	At the University of Pittsburgh he majored in political science. He was particularly attracted to the historical approach to the subject, the most common approach during those days. There was, as a result, not much conflict between the two disciplines. He discusses Charles Beard. 

00:17:19 	WY stayed on at Gimbles after the Christmas job.  He did not enjoy it and was not good at it. 

00:20:29 	He obtained a job working for the Works Progress Administration building a swimming pool near where his family lived. 

00:21:51 	WY wrote to the political science department at the University of Pittsburgh in 1935. 

00:22:11 	He discusses the serious financial situation the country faced in 1935.  He makes an amusing comment about medical care: “Today they get you out of the hospital.  In those days it took one week to recover from the anesthetic and another week to recover from the adhesive tape. So you stayed two weeks. That was medical care in those days.”

00:23:19 	WY worked as a teaching assistant for a course called "Intro to American government." He was paid $600 a year. There was a strong emphasis on figuring out the causes of the First World War and preventing the next war based on these lessons. These explanations (cites the Nye report) focused on the weapons makers and steel producers. WY says he learned early on about “political theology.”  “There’s always a devil.”  He also discusses the centrality of the idea of collective security. 

00:27:29 	He continued as a teaching assistant (TA) for about four years. WY says he enjoyed teaching and calls it an “ego-inflating business”. His discussions with other TAs were an important experience because they had varied backgrounds. One TA was a Democratic party activist; another was a “real old-fashioned scholar” who read Latin and was very interested in the Classics.

00:30:48	End of side.

00:30:49 	WY says he was better read than many others when he came to Wisconsin. Many of his peers were Midwesterners and did not have broad backgrounds. 

00:31:36 	He completed his Masters in 1937 and intended to come to UW, but his father and brother got sick. As a result, he remained in Pittsburgh for two more years, until 1939. 

00:32:31 	He selected UW because the department had a good reputation. He came to Wisconsin for summer school in 1938 to “look the place over,” and notes “I thought Madison was God’s country compared to Pittsburgh.”  He finished his PhD in just two years. This involved passing two language tests and four of seven prelim fields offered by the department.  

00:35:00 	WY received the department’s only fellowship for a year while completing his dissertation. 

00:35:52	His thesis professor was Llewellyn Pfankuchen. He also studied with Frederic Ogg, John Merriman Gaus, and Grayson Kirk. He became good friends with William Ebenstein, who had come to the United States as a refugee. 

00:36:57 	Gaus often invited a guest for Saturday afternoon coffee at his home. WY says these were very valuable experiences. He thinks this was the best setting for the type of teaching Gaus did.

00:38:25 	WY describes Ogg. Ogg and Orman Ray had published the most influential book on American Government at that time. “Mr. Ogg would remind you of a New England gentleman. He always had a vest and a pocket watch. He was the only member of the department that confessed to being a Republican and listed it in Who’s Who as such.” Ogg’s two passions were football and opera.  He was “heavy set, methodical, unusually industrious, but not given to many flights of fancy...He was not someone who would excite students' interest in political science.” 

00:40:57 	On Sundays Ogg would entertain one or two graduate students in his home. “He lived a very routine life…He was not at ease in social affairs.” His wife had passed away and he lived with a handful of assistants.  “He was a very decent gentleman. Very kind, considerate, but not at ease with young people.”

00:43:06 	“He was treated with respect, not affection.” By the time WY arrived on campus, Ogg had given up the chairmanship and no longer attended faculty meetings.  When WY later worked for the governor, he asked Ogg to head up a committee to study taxes. “Their study didn’t come to a whole lot, but anybody that studies taxes is not likely to produce a popular report.”

00:45:46 	WY describes Grayson Kirk as handsome, “with a slight impediment of speech...The girls would all sit in the first row in his lectures…He looked every bit the Eastern Harvard professor.”

00:47:36 	When WY arrived at UW, many of the big names had either departed (like Kirk) or retired (like Gaus).

00:48:46 	WY says John Salter “had a lot of children, rarely paid his bills, he was a gun fancier–he had a shooting range in his basement–he lived mostly in his office where he had a hot plate.  And, for all practical purposes, Jack retired as a political scientist the day he got his degree.”  Salter remained an associate professor at “very low pay” throughout his career. He was one of the few faculty members who would regularly invite practicing political scientists to lecture in his classes. 

00:53:40 	Llewellyn Pfankuchen came from a small town in Minnesota. His specialty was international law, but he did some work for the Bureau of Agricultural Economics in Washington. This inspired an interest in local government. Pfankuchen taught a wide range of courses in international law and constitutional law.  He was very fair minded.  As chair he would often champion the people who were most critical of him. 

00:58:39 	Pfankuchen and WY “got along fine” in their work together on his dissertation. Pfankuchen persuaded him to write a systematic study of local government in Wisconsin. WY calls his thesis a “catalogue” indicating the areas that required further information. “It was thick, had a detailed bibliography, and nobody ever read it.” 

01:00:30 	WY joined the Institute of Local and State Government at University of Pennsylvania.  He was recruited by James Charlesworth, a faculty member he had worked for at the University of Pittsburgh.

01:01:48	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 9

01:01:49 	WY finished his PhD in 1941 and was considered for positions at the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Pittsburgh. The Pittsburgh position included a handsome salary, but he did not want to return for two reasons: he wanted to "put some distance" between himself and some members of his family, and he was convinced he would never be given another raise over the generous entering salary. 

01:04:10 	The University of Pennsylvania position was about two thirds the salary of the Pittsburgh position. The program was "experimental."  It faced a challenge in that the Philadelphia city government was machine-run, but there were more options in small towns outside of the city. 

01:06:12 	WY talks about his impressions of Philadelphia. He says he enjoyed Philadelphia, but that the city is not very hospitable to strangers. Through the University of Pennsylvania program, he got to know the Republican machine in Philadelphia, because he had many city employees in his classes. 

01:11:04 	WY joined the army in 1943, first serving as a civilian in the Pentagon, about which he says “My work can best be described as moving papers between my in box and out box.”  He was discharged in March 1946.  He describes the process of notifying the next of kin of casualties. 

01:15:47 	He returned to Pennsylvania for a year (1946-47). Upon his return, the University of Pennsylvania made him an associate professor.  UW offered WY a position through Pfankuchen.  The schools were “inundated” by returning GIs taking advantage of the GI Bill. 

01:18:37 	When he came to UW, Kirk, Ebenstein, and Sharp were all gone and Gaus left soon afterwards. He was hired to teach local and state government, which had been taught by Edwin Witte. When Gaus left, WY was asked to take his courses as well. 

01:21:12 	“The department was wholly different than the one I studied under.” Shortly after he arrived they hired William Stokes.  Stokes was a “self-promoter” and a “populist orator”–he had a radio show in Chicago. His expertise was in Latin America.  He was conservative and was not regarded highly by liberals in the department. 

01:24:17 	Howard McMurray had just left when WY was hired. WY says that according to the Capital Times, the faculty members who were hired after McCamy (Stokes, Young, Epstein) were “replacements” for McMurray. WY says he did not know McMurray personally.  He describes a conflict over the violation of academic freedom associated with the Regents' refusal to go along with the hiring of McMurray.

01:26:00 	This was a period when the department was rebuilding. The department was expanding fairly rapidly. 

01:27:37 	WY describes beginning to work for Governor Rennebohm. Under Governor Heil, a Division of Departmental Research was established in the Governor’s office. The head of this division used it to "put department heads on trial."  When Rennebohm became governor, he hired WY to head the division. Shortly after taking the position, WY announced there would be no trials. WY got to know Rennebohm through his service in this position.

01:32:50	End of side.

01:32:51 	WY describes working for Rennebohm in three areas: 1) The governor wanted to address the problem of treating mental illness. WY coordinated a reorganization of state welfare programs.  2) WY then began to work on the organization of the public school system.  This work was centered on a commission that included Melvin Laird, Foster Porter, and Bill Clark.  3) He developed a system for funding repairs to state buildings, which had suffered from neglect due to lack of funding for infrastructure. 

01:38:51 	When Rennebohm retired, WY was asked to work on the university’s budget. He describes negotiations over funding the construction of Memorial Library. 

01:41:31 	To illustrate how his work for the state supported his academic interests, WY resumes his description of the politics of school reform and the reform of mental health services.  “To me, attempting to be moderately scientific, I was frustrated as hell. Where do you get the ammunition to support the programs people are talking about?"

01:50:44 	WY continued to teach through this period; he remembers having possibly taken only one semester off. He left his work for the state in late 1951.  In 1953 he began his work on the university budget. At this time the university was the subject of criticism from the legislature for its efforts to purchase land between University Avenue and Regent Street.  The university did not have authorized funds to do this, and had been using a revolving fund from student segregated fees. The legislature put an end to this. In the context of this conflict, the Regents hired WY to be a go-between with the legislature. 

01:55:20 	WY describes reorganizing the university budget.  Rather than basing the budget on positions, which could then be cut by the legislature, the new budget was based on a formula dependent on per-student costs. 

02:00:35 	WY worked on the budget for 10 years, until Fred Harrington became president and “he was sure he could do better than me.”

02:01:31	End of side.  End of tape.

Second Interview Session (June 18, 2002): Tapes 10-11 

Tape 10

00:00:02 	WY briefly discusses efforts to appoint him mayor.

00:02:20 	While working for the governor, WY made it a rule not to talk to the press. He preferred to work internally.  A Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel article profiling Young made him appear to "run the state."  WY wrote a letter to the editor arguing that the profile had overstated his role.  Rennebohm never talked to him about the article.

00:04:47 	WY says John Gaus looked like a man who worked outdoors or was an athlete. He was tan and had strong features. He was well-read in literature. “It would be hard to describe his teaching as political science in any strict definition of the word.  His favorite textbook was The Education of Henry Adams.”  Prior to the firing of Glenn Frank, Gaus was close to the administration.  The university hired Clarence Dykstra, who had made his reputation as a city manager. Gaus was close to Dykstra and may have played a role in his hiring. Gaus was also on the State Planning Commission.

00:07:30 	When Dykstra was fired, this changed Gaus’s position and contributed to his departure. The McMurray affair also played a role in Gaus’s decision to leave. It might have suggested to Gaus that his influence was not welcome.

00:09:28 	Gaus was more influential in administration than he ever appeared. He built his influence through his correspondences – building many acquaintances in the government and elsewhere.  WY describes him as “very good one-on-one”. “If you just read Gaus’s writings it is hard to see why he would have been so influential in university affairs...He was a teacher, first, last, and all the time.”

00:11:47 	WY briefly discusses Glenn Frank.  He says that he believes there was not substantial support for Frank when he took a stand for academic freedom.  WY mentions that he thinks Gaus was close to the La Follettes. 

00:16:14	WY discusses the shift toward political behavior in the discipline. He says he found increasingly that people were not interested in politics, but were instead interested in psychology and behavior.

00:18:01 	WY describes his efforts to rebuild the department while he was chair. 

00:21:47	He speaks specifically about his efforts to “bring David Fellman back into the fold.”  He describes some of Fellman’s concerns, mostly regarding the treatment of an unnamed faculty member. WY describes efforts to reorganize the committee and budgeting system within the department. He says he was influenced in this by the economics department, which he remembers was terribly divided at the time. 

00:23:24	WY speaks further about his work as chair. He talks about letting Thompson, a China scholar, go. The department also lost William Stokes at this time.  Although Stokes was not popular within the department, WY remembers being criticized for letting him go. 

00:26:23	Also during WY’s chairmanship, the department hired Bernard Cohen, John Armstrong, and Henry C. Hart. 

00:27:54 	WY remembers the targeting of Hart by anti-communists as a result of his involvement with the TVA and possible association with communists. The department hired Hart when he was having trouble finding a position because of his compromised political position. WY recalls that there was not substantial pressure from McCarthy because he did not want to pick on his own state. 

00:30:44	End of side.

00:30:45 	WY continues to discuss the Hart case and the general lack of pressure from anti-communists.

00:32:25 	During WY’s period as chair, James McCamy was perhaps the most influential and most nationally known faculty member in the department.  WY remembers Pfankuchen being quietly influential. “He could be relied on to be quite fair…his judgment was quite fair.”

00:35:28 	WY describes the hiring of Clara Penniman.  Penniman had been his student when she received a masters from UW.  He persuaded James Donovan to hire Penniman for UW Extension.  WY brought her into the department to teach a course and she then joined the department.

00:37:24 	WY describes Leon Epstein: "Leon Epstein is as smart a guy as I’ve known in the discipline."  He describes Epstein as lacking in empathy, but says that “I couldn’t see anything but good about him.” 

00:41:14 	WY describes Coleman Woodbury as a “brainstorm of Fred Harrington."  Woodbury was focused on urban planning. He was paid for by funds outside the department, but he needed a home.  "He was not a good colleague."  He started a department of urban and regional planning, which was not a successful venture in WY’s assessment.

00:44:29 	WY speaks briefly about Fred Clarenbach and says it is fitting that he left the department to join urban and regional planning. 

00:46:14 	Regarding women in the department, WY says that even when he was a grad student, there were always at least one or two women. Ellen Sorge was a graduate student when WY was in graduate school.  She later married another graduate student, Bob Parks, who became president of Iowa State. 

00:48:35	WY recalls he had moderately good relations with Dean Ingraham, although these relations were “badly bruised during my work on the budget.”  WY recalls that the biggest problem he faced was the College of Agriculture, which often sought special treatment in the budget process.  He says “they were hanging me in effigy over there.”

00:50:58 	WY describes his taking over the Ogg and Ray text. The publishers asked him to continue revisions on the book, and he produced three or four editions. He says the money was very important to him personally. He says the book was “about as interesting as the telephone directory.”  WY notes that “I made enough money to buy this house” but that “after a while it became a chore” because the literature was developing too quickly. 

00:58:06 	WY finished his term as chair in 1959-60 and completed his work with the budget. WY then initiated a major shift in his career, refocusing on administration in the developing world. First, for three or four years, WY worked on patent issues with the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation. Ed Young got WY involved with a Ford Foundation grant to do international research, particularly on Indonesia. Through this WY became interested in international outreach. 

01:01:49	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 11

01:01:50 	WY continues to describe the origins of the Center for Development. He joined Ed Young in talks with the Ford Foundation and became more involved, traveling and acting as a consultant. 

01:03:49	Based on his work, he proposed to the Ford Foundation a program in the United States. Administration was part of the Center’s purpose, but the focus was on economics and economic planning.  The Center also included sections on agriculture, education, and other areas. 

01:06:28 	The Center’s first students were brought in with four or five fellowships in 1967-68. WY traveled about every other year to South and South East Asia. The program continued for eighteen months and awarded students a master’s degree.  The class size was approximately twenty to twenty-five. 

01:09:28 	By the time he retired, WY had helped to educate about three hundred students, some of whom were high-ranking officials in Indonesia and Malaysia. 

01:12:01 	“I don’t know about the students, but I learned a lot.” WY says he had one major failure: it was difficult to find people willing to take up research in the areas the Center was focused on, even though WY had money to give. 

01:14:30 	The program was eventually absorbed into La Follette.  WY is not particularly favorable about this change.  He discusses his continued involvement with international education efforts in Japan, Indonesia, and India after his retirement. 

01:19:21 	WY discusses the importance of planning in India, an area in which his expertise was sought for several years. 

01:21:56	WY continues to keep up contacts, particularly in Thailand. He describes his work on developing the National Institute of Development Administration, which has asked him to do consulting work. 

01:24:55 	WY describes his service on the board of the Rennebohm Foundation. He spoke with Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Ford about the role of a small foundation, and they told him to “stay in your community.”  He describes the efforts of the Foundation on campus. 

01:32:40	End of side.

01:32:42 	WY describes his involvement with the Hilldale shopping area and the two corporations that emerged from this effort. He serves on the Hilldale Corporation that manages the shopping center.  They have given the University about $1.25 million per year. 

01:36:53	WY locates the origins of his interest in public affairs in his experience during the Depression.  “We were as close to revolution then as we have been because of the intellectual ferment…” WY attributes some of his hostility to the business world to his rebellion from his father. He discusses the different ideas of that period.  WY says that the ideas from that period--holding the government as part of the solution--were dominant until relatively recently, "and I haven’t found any very good reason to change my mind.”

01:41:30 	WY returns to a brief discussion of his interest in state and local government, planning, and the dominance of political machines at the local level. 

01:47:01	WY talks about working to improve the pay scale for city workers. 

01:49:23 	“If our political science department has anything to brag about, it is possibly that so many of our people over the years have made contributions in the public services. They’ve set aside their immediate academic pursuits to be involved in the administration of something. If you look at the history of our department, quite a few people–not just me–have performed some kind of public service for an existing institution...Most of the humanities people that I know are contaminated if they get mixed up in the ordinary affairs of life, that will spoil their dreams or something.”

01:51:44 	WY speaks briefly about the influence of the behavioralists on political science. “I quit reading the political science journal because most of the articles I couldn’t understand.”  He contrasts ordinary politics (“how things are actually done”) with what is studied within the discipline today. 

01:54:25 	The word “science” in “political science” has not been wisely chosen. WY concludes that “Somehow the human element gets lost.”

01:58:16	End of side.  End of tape.

END