UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #246
PETERSON, MARTHA

PETERSON, Martha (1916- )
Dean of Women
At UW: 1956-1967

First Interview
Interviewed: 1982	
Interviewer: Donna Hartshorne
Indexed (time code) by: Elaine Ayers
Length: 2 hours, 23 minutes

Background and education; Early career; Appointment as dean; Rigidity of UW regulations governing students; Reputation as radical; Relationship with dean of men; Support of influential faculty; Contacts with parents; Hierarchy of Memorial Union student jobs; Hiring house mothers and residents; Racial discrimination in Beloit sorority; Exchange program; Rennebohm Foundation Educational Project; Concern about neglect of student needs in Center System campuses; Colleagues; Abolition of position of dean of women.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1996	
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Indexed (time code) by: Elaine Ayers
Length: 1 hour, 9 minutes

Childhood and education; University of Kansas; Hiring as dean of women at UW; University dean of students; Louise Troxell; Ted Zillman; In loco parentis; Discrimination; Kennedy assassination; Student protests; Treatment of women; Presidents E. B. Fred and Fred Harvey Harrington.

FIRST INTERVIEW: Tapes 1-3

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Miscellaneous audio from unidentified interview. 

00:00:19	Background.  MP was born on her grandfather's homestead in Kansas.  Attended University of Kansas, majored in math, German, Latin.  Taught at a small high school in Kansas for five years.  During WWII, MP returned to University of Kansas to teach in Army's ASTP program.  Taught math there and received her master's degree.  Had completed her course work for a math Ph.D. when she entered administration.  She obtained masters in counseling and guidance from Kansas.

00:07:57	MP discusses thesis topic: "Predictive Factors in Selecting Counselors."

00:10:21	E.B. Fred called her while she was studying for finals.  He asked her to interview at Wisconsin for Dean of Women position.  Mentions several people on the committee who interviewed her.  Ira Baldwin called to offer her job.

00:14:04	Fred spoke to everyone he could about MP.  MP was impressed with those she met.  Became good friends with those on her hiring committee. 

00:16:03	MP concerned about Joseph McCarthy.  While not politically liberal, many viewed her as very radical due to her methods in Kansas as dean of women.  She allowed black women in dorms and revised sorority system so that women had to be at least sophomores to join.  This eliminated initial frustration prior to start of college career.

00:19:59	MP discusses her respect for the tradition of academic freedom at Wisconsin.  Surprised at the rigidity of regulations governing students.  Kansas, while a more conservative state generally, was more liberal in its attitude toward students.  MP had trouble understanding Wisconsin's rigid, authoritarian way of running dormitories.

00:22:54	MP thinks this was an easy way of handling a large institution, which had been under attack for bulk of its life.  Also, she felt Wisconsin still had a streak of German authoritarianism in it.

00:24:13	At the end of second or third year, MP went to Ira Baldwin's office and told him that she didn't think she fit in at Wisconsin.  Baldwin told her that they had known what they were getting when they hired her and she was just what they wanted.  University wanted someone who could take a little rigidness out of the rules, and make the campus more livable for students.

00:25:42	Dormitories were an example of hard and fast rules of University.  MP had battles with Newell Smith about this, but they were good friends.  Choice of counselors rather than disciplinarians in dorms.  MP pushing for rights of the individual.

00:27:15	Rules were so rigid, they often ignored fact that they were being broken.  MP would have changed rules rather than see them consistently broken.  Often ignored drinking problems in the fraternities and sororities rather than dealing with problem.

00:28:23	Ted Zillman, dean of men, and MP battled in cases such as this.

00:29:02	Good relationship with Ted Zillman but disagreed in area of discipline.  Resolved their disagreements due to faculty on important committees—discipline, housing, etc.  Porter Putts and MP also did not agree on several issues.  But faculty members insured fair decisions.  Willard Hurst, LeRoy Luberg, Chandler Young and others were on committees.  Faculty members could not see larger issues on campus as well as MP and Zillman since they were farther removed from them.

00:31:38	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:31:58	Repetition of end of previous side, followed by excerpt from unidentified interview.	

00:33:14	Committee work. Porter Butts and Memorial Union.  He served on Student Life and Interest Committee.  He had firm ideas on how students should spend time out of class.  MP agreed, but felt he was autocratic in his decisions.  Elite group of students worked at Union.

00:35:25	Helen Kaiser responsible for sororities.  Anne Rogers took over upon her retirement.  Few problems between fraternities and sororities and students living in dorms.

00:37:30	Issue of responsibility over students' personal problems was another source of conflict.  Discusses attitude of head residents and house mothers.  MP had good working relationship with different departments.

00:40:10	MP worked with parents often.  Many at university disagreed about how parents should be informed or involved.

00:42:58	Situations changed little from year to year, making MP's job repetitive.

00:45:32	Union organized like the Army.  One performed undesirable jobs initially, then moved up.  Not democratic, was elitist.  Association of Women's Students similar.

00:49:29	Regarding changing regulations, Ira Baldwin felt there should be more support and diffuse responsibility.  By 1960s, officers held a greater sense of responsibility for representing students.  University moved away from concept of in loco parentis after WWII.  Made exceptions for older students after the war.  Concept returned during '50s, but permanently removed by 1960s.

00:55:02	Discusses how house mothers, residents were chosen.  Became difficult since it was a 24-hour job.

01:00:26	Discusses Delta Gamma sorority incident regarding black pledge at Beloit.  National organization revoked Beloit's charter.  Faculty sought to ban sorority in Wisconsin, but MP told them case was too weak.

01:03:43	End of side. End of tape.

End of Mp3 File.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:03	More on Delta Gamma incident.

00:09:18	MP never member of sorority.  Discusses elitism of fraternities and sororities at Kansas.  Elitism not a problem at Madison, but racial discrimination was.

00:13:24	MP reflects on reasons for decline in popularity of sororities and fraternities.  Perhaps due to archaic rules, more individualistic outlook, less group loyalty in dorms.  Major revisions in many sororities' rules—less rigid.

00:18:50	Discusses 1962 Conference on Continuing Education for Women.  Raised issue of what should be done on behalf of older women in the community.  Ruth Doyle hired to work with women living off campus, and some minority women.  Kay Clarenbach mentioned.  Surveyed wives of faculty members, doctors, and lawyers.  They were easiest to reach.  Asked what jobs they had, their education levels, interest in employment, plans for future.  Much talent was being wasted, and many women had skills which MP needed.  Mentions E.B. Fred Fellows.

00:26:12	Discusses some of Helen C. White's ideas.

00:27:18	Governor's conferences useful but too frequent.

00:28:15	Senior Swingout.  Honors convocation.

00:31:29	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

00:31:32	Annual Women's Day fizzled out when MP came to UW, due to lack of interest.

00:32:54	Twelve-member committee on international exchange of persons.  Three-year appointment from the American Council on Education.  Each of these groups sent three representatives: National Academy of Sciences, American Council of Learned Societies, American Council on Education.  Committee selected Fulbright Scholars to recommend to Board of Foreign Scholars.  Met two or three times a year.  Farrington Daniels was representative from National Academy of Sciences when MP was on committee.

00:35:39	Annual Midwest Conference of Fulbright Scholars and University Professors.  MP became chairperson.  Relates anecdote about conference.

00:40:21	Rennebohm Foundation Educational Project.  Five year project with schools around state.  MP doesn't remember being involved.  Mentions Joan Wilke, Ruth Doyle, Clarence Olmstead and their work on project.

00:45:34	MP visited all center campuses as Dean of Students.  Harrington thought center campuses were being neglected concerning student life, financial aid.  MP brought knowledge about centers to attention of central administration.

00:50:08	MP's title changed from dean of women, to special assistant to the president, to dean of students.  Began with her visit to Mark Ingraham as noted earlier.  Harrington wanted to make her special assistant in order to centralize student services system.

00:53:27	Dean of students needed during transition from separate campuses to centralized system.  Joseph Kauffman was dean on Madison campus.  Relations with him and other campus deans.

00:56:32	MP's relationship with Harrington.  Very easy to work with, had confidence in her.  Relates anecdote.

00:59:36	Counseling office and Dean of Women's office.  Emily Chervenik and others, good relations.  MP does not view self as counselor.  Feels she is more of a teacher.

01:03:08	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:00	Repetition of end of previous side. 

00:00:28	Relations with Chester Ruedisili.  Always a strain between dean of men's office and dean of women's office and academic dean's office, especially with College of Letters and Science.  Only rough guidelines about division of problems.  Tried not to shortchange student due to internal squabble.  Anecdote.

00:10:16	Thoughts about abolishing dean of women's office to single dean of students.  She did not favor this, because there were few women in administration.  Remained one of few opportunities for women.

00:16:08	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview.

SECOND INTERVIEW (October 15, 1996): Tape 4

Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:00:	Interviewer’s introduction. 

00:00:12	MP describes her childhood in Kansas and her early schooling.  Her high school had good teachers and she did well academically.  She developed an early interest in mathematics.

00:03:50	MP majored in math at the University of Kansas.  She was not allowed to take physics because she was a woman.  She taught math at Kansas during WWII and began work on her doctorate after the war ended.  She enjoyed administrative work and changed her graduate work from math to educational counseling.

00:08:49	MP was hired as dean of women at UW in 1956.  In 1962, Fred Harvey Harrington appointed her as University Dean of Women.  She divided her time between UW-Madison, UW-Milwaukee, and the UW-Center campuses.  MP continued in that job until 1967.

00:20:48	MP replaced Louise Troxell as UW’s Dean of Women.  Troxell was helpful during the transition.  She was committed to equal opportunities for women at the local and national level.  MP found UW students sophisticated and unwilling to follow rules that made no sense.

00:28:46	Before MP came to UW, the relationship between the deans of men and women had not been good.  Dean of Men Ted Zillman was a strict disciplinarian, but Troxell was not as rigid.  The faculty were frequently involved in disciplining students.  MP discusses a disciplinary proceeding early in her tenure in which the faculty in attendance supported her instead of Zillman.

00:35:34	MP never found the term in loco parentis helpful.  Zillman, on the other hand, would have supported in loco parentis.  He approached students from a legalistic perspective, while MP approached them more as a teacher might.

00:41:21	MP and others in the Dean of Women’s office often helped needy students.  Jewish students from New York often were isolated from the rest of the student body.

00:44:32	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

00:44:36	Sound checking.

00:45:09	Up until WWII, University behavior codes were strictly enforced.  Having just fought a war, the returning GIs were unwilling to put up with petty rules. 

00:48:48	John F. Kennedy inspired a new generation of students.  MP’s generation, which grew up during the Depression and always did what they were told, were not very sympathetic to some of the changes.  Still, they hoped this new generation of students would change society in positive ways.

00:50:50	MP understood the depth of student feeling after the Kennedy assassination, but she had no idea how it would manifest itself.  She was surprised at the passion of the student protests.  The more radical students did not want to compromise; the more serious students who were intent on real change did.

00:55:01	Women were treated well by faculty and others on campus.  There was great academic support for women.  It was the rules, not the people, which held women back.  In 1956, when MP came to UW, E. B. Fred thought UW should be doing more for women and wanted to open up more fields of study to them.  Fred Harvey Harrington was convinced the role of women would change and he was always pushing to do more for them.

01:01:11	When MP was hired at UW, there was a network of men and women who supported her in her efforts to further the cause of women on campus.  She believes this was the same kind of support Helen C. White, Elizabeth McCoy and other women had at UW.

01:08:37	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview.

END