UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #466

CLARENBACH, Kathryn F.  (1920-1994)
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Continuing Education, Extension  
At UW: 1937-1988

First Interview
Tapes 1-12
Interviewed: 1987-1988	
Interviewer: Margaret Andreasen
Length: 14 hours

Second Interview
Tapes 13-15
Interviewed: 1989	
Interviewer: Margaret Andreasen
Length: 4.5 hours

Start of Interview
0:00:00

MA:	[first part of the introduction is cut off] Clarenbach.

KC: 	1987, you might add.

MA: 	1987. Thank you Kay.

0:00:12

MA: 	Well, let's begin by looking at these

KC:	Okay. I’ll explain first what the photograph album is and why I have it. This actually is the album of my brother David. And um, he was killed during World War II in a plane crash; he was an aviation cadet. After he died my mother put together this album with pictures mainly of him. And by the time she finished it she thought wouldn't it be nice if she pawed through all the other old snapshots and put together one for each of us, which she did. Mine is buried someplace in the basement, but I am in enough of these so that it will refresh my memory. I thought it was such a good idea that I started doing it with my kids. And as soon as I had two and three I would have triplicates made of any photograph and started books for all of them. By the time they moved out I told them they were on their own.

MA: 	It was up to them to continue it, huh?

KC: 	Right, uh-huh.

MA: 	That’s a wonderful-

KC: 	Well, I’m trying to...well, they’re all labeled. Thank goodness. This is my mother's family, all except her youngest sister; so the two year old is my mother. 

MA: 	Where was your mother born, Wisconsin?

KC:	Yes, in Sparta. The same town I was born in. And her brother and two older sisters. 

MA:	That’s wonderful.

KC:	It’s a good thing she wrote that. When my mother, well a few years before my mother died when I was visiting in Sparta, I uh, we hauled out reams of old photographs from a closet and I had her dictate to me who was in those pictures. So that I have some background.

MA:	Yeah, pretty Important. Did she live in Wisconsin her whole life?

KC:	Yes, mm-hmm, practically. During World War I my dad was stationed in Little Rock, Arkansas. And I thought my mother had never learned how to drive but she told me that (my mother and dad were married in Sparta but then they lived in Kendall which is a little town not far from there where my father had been a preacher and my mother had been a country school teacher and when he was, and my oldest brother Bob was born in Kendall, when she was pregnant with her second child, my mother drove with this four year old and a growing fetus, by her—otherwise by herself—from Kendall, Wisconsin to Little Rock, Arkansas. Over mountains and other such things that she said by the time she got there that ended her driving. She got there safely, but she was so miserable on the whole trip that she never drove again.

MA: 	Uh-huh, interesting.

KC: 	And they actually lived in Little Rock College, which is a Catholic college run by priests, so my mother was the only female around there. And they maintained warm friendships with a number of those priests for the rest of their days.

00:03:39

MA:	And was your mother college educated?

KC:	No. She started teaching country school in a really rural one room school in a community known as Summit, which is about, I suppose, 25 miles from Sparta. Much of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books, I think one of the reasons my mother loved those so much and loved reading them to all of her grandchildren, was that it reminded her of her own experience in those days. And when we move into this photo album a few pages we'll see, I think, some pictures of, perhaps all of us, but certainly David and me spending time at this farm where my mother roomed. She was paid $28 a month for teaching school and I think room and board was thrown in, in addition to the cash income. But we used to visit that farm and just loved it. Sometimes we'd stay overnight and sleep in the barn in the hayloft, just for fun.

MA:	Were the original people still there?

KC:	Yes, the whole family.

MA:	Did she ever talk about how she felt about the experience, what the work was like, about the payment?  Did she feel she was fairly paid and what the work was like?

KC:	Well we, she talked a lot about what it was like to teach. And she had such a range of ages and abilities. In fact during World War II, in Sparta, which is where I was born and where my parents did live, they moved there in 1920 shortly before I was born and then lived in Sparta the rest of their days.  And Camp McCoy, now known as Fort McCoy, is located just a few miles outside of Sparta, so that during World War II there was an enormous inundation of military.  In fact, they used to come there every summer from ROTC and CMTC.  And my mother was a Gray Lady— 

MA:	A Gray Lady?

KC:	—a Gray Lady during World War II. You're too young to know what that is.

MA:	I don't know what that it is; I should, probably.

KC: 	Well, they were volunteer women who worked in hospitals and other military. I don't know that the ones who worked in canteens were ever called Gray Ladies, but they had uniforms that reflected that, so. In any case, I guess she was at a USO when this incident occurred. A couple of soldiers were quite drunk and there was, one of them was wielding a knife and there were fisticuffs or whatever and the local constabulary had their hands a little too full and all of a sudden my mother looked and recognized one of these men as having been a first grader in her Summit school. And she went over and called him by name he said “oh Miss Hubble” and he sobered up at once. [Laughs] And he apologized and that was the end of his misbehavior. So she must have had an influence on her students. She did, my mother did have one summer here at the University, must have been before she was married. She stayed in Chadbourne Hall, which, there was an old Chadbourne Hall where the high rise is now. And apparently that was a very exciting and wonderful experience.  

00:07:14

KC:	My dad had a lot of, he has a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Wisconsin and a law degree from Georgetown law school. Shall we wait for the airplane?

MA:	Sure. [Pause] Okay.

KC:	Well, I guess I mentioned that my dad had-- 

MA:	A bachelor's, a master's, and a law degree.

KC:	Right. And an honorary doctorate from Little Rock College.  

MA:	Wow.

KC: 	And I suppose in each case, their encouragement to all four of us to have as much schooling as possible, came out of their own experience. My mother was a great reader; she loved to write, she didn't have an awful lot of opportunities to write but she would write, for example, not only her own paper every year for Literary Club and papers for other organizations she belonged to, but frequently would ghost write my father's paper for Literary Club, which he would then stand up and read, but she would have the fun of doing the research and writing it. I think the fact that she didn't have an opportunity to go to school as long as she would have liked, made her value that experience. So that my, both of my parents, but particularly my father, used to line us all up, three of us were in college all the time that I was an undergraduate, which was a little bit of a strain on a country preacher and a country lawyer, financial strain that is. And in fact, he borrowed money from the bank to pay our tuition which was then $27.50 a semester.  

MA:	Oh my, what an example of inflation.

KC: 	That's right. In fact, there was a real student protest during one of my early years here when the Regents threatened to increase the tuition up to $32.00 a semester; they were successful, of course in doing it, but.  Anyway, my dad always said I will see you through to a master's degree and after that you're on your own.  He just assumed that there would be an after that and there was in each case.  

MA:	For all of you.

KC:	My brother Gordon who is just older than I, and I got our masters degree at the same time here, in the same ceremony, he in Economics and I in Political Science and then after the war, he got a Law degree and I got my Ph.D. and my brother Bob, who was in dramatics and speech, did everything but a thesis for his Ph.D. from the University of Iowa and by that time was kind of fed up. My husband did exactly the same thing at exactly the same age at Columbia; he had everything but his thesis.

MA:	That’s a frightening bit of information.

KC:	Well, yes, yeah.

MA:	How did, did you always know then, from the time that you were a young girl, that you would go to college? Was it kind of a given in your reality?

KC:	Yes, I don't think we ever discussed it; the only question was where we would go to school.  

MA:	I see.

KC:	And my brothers both had a couple of years at LaCrosse, which was a state college at the time, but I didn't want to go there. I remember a conversation about Lawrence College, which is now Lawrence University in Appleton, but I didn't even want to go and look at it. I don’t – I have no idea why. I just assumed that the University in Madison was where I wanted to go to school.

MA:	Did you have any reasons? Just because it was the biggest school?

KC:	I don't know that I ever thought through; I must have had some semiconscious reasons, I had visited a lot in Madison. I had friends here with whom I would come and spend the week. Our family would come here frequently from the time I was very, very young. We’d come just for the day and go to the zoo and look at the Capitol and my father would show us a lot of his old haunts. He was born in Madison and went to high school here and in fact, worked his way through the university by preaching in two little communities near here: Ironton and Cazenovia. He would hire a rig on Saturday and drive to these places, conduct two services on Sunday and then drive back. And apparently was paid enough to make out. When we would come to Madison as kids, he would point out where he used to play Hare and Hound chases out, and of course the way in which the city had expanded since his day, and of course it is even more so in the 27 years that we've lived here, but that was always kind of interesting.  

00:12:29

KC:	In fact, I was thinking a little while ago, of the kind of sense of history that particularly my father, at least I identify it in my memory, had, not only on trips that we would take, which I can got to in a minute, but in our little community of Sparta, which was just shortly over 3,000 population when I was in school there. Now, of course, it is a metropolis of some 6 or 7,000. And my dad frequently, if we were in the car going downtown, he would stop at the blacksmith shop or take us around by what was called just the square I think, I can’t remember, where there was a watering trough and where the farmers would hitch up their wagons when they came in on Saturday. And he also took us to the, a flour mill that we had, a little creek that runs through town called Beaver Creek only it's called Beaver Crick, to see the feed mill and point out that these things wouldn't last much longer and that we should really become acquainted with them and know that they were, you know, on their way out. And so, this was similar to our visits to Madison or wherever we went, he would point out changes of things that had been different when he was young and that were going to be different pretty soon.  On some of these trips, we did have some awfully nice vacation trips again when I was a kid. One summer, we had, one summer when I think I was about 12, we had an eastern trip for about 6 weeks or so and we went by train to - you'll see snapshots in there of Plymouth Rock and oh the Gettysburg battlefield - we went to Frederick, Maryland because our name was Frederick and one of my brothers purloined what today would look like a bumper sticker marking Frederick, Maryland, saw where some of the witches of Salem were persecuted.  Wherever we went, my mother would try to fill us in on some historic information and my dad would walk us through. And I remember my mother loved to tell the story of having to intercede in what turned out to be a very unpleasant, I don't know if it was a real fisticuffs, but my brother Gordon, he would have been 14, and his friend from across the street, Doug Burnett, they had been absolutely fast bosom friends since they started kindergarten together, never had unhappiness between them and they were actually wrestling and fighting and my mother went out to stop it and to find out what in the world was going on.  Doug said well Gondy said his dad was in the battle of Gettysburg and I know he wasn't and Gondy said he was too, I saw exactly where. I am sure my dad had pointed out where Wisconsin Civil War Union soldiers had participated and made it so real that my brother was absolutely sure he had to have been there.

MA:	You really grew up with a sense of history.

KC:	Yes, without really knowing that we were.  

MA:	Yeah.

KC: 	The earlier, when I was five or six, we had had a west coast trip and we had stopped to see friends in Denver and other places, and then took the train to Seattle where we got on a boat and went down to San Francisco, by boat. And my mother used to tell me that I was absolutely certain we couldn't possibly sleep on a ship or a boat. The only boat of my only experience was a little row boat on our lake at home and I didn't see how that many people were going to be comfortable on it. And then we had time in California and Yellowstone Park and all of the traditional things. I guess it was unusual - there were not a lot of families in our community who had the opportunity to do things like that. We did go almost every summer for a few days in Chicago, for quick few—we went to a World's Fair, but also my dad would time these visits to Chicago to coincide with baseball games. He was a Chicago Cubs fan and he would try to find a time when there were doubleheaders, so that he would get his money's worth. I would be scared for quite a number of visits. The idea of Chicago was just nothing but gangsters and shootings and I was very leery about going.

MA:	How old were you when you first recall a trip to Chicago?

KC:	I don't know. Probably about eight or ten I suppose.

MA:	Do you have memories about what it was like?

KC:	Yes, I do. My dad would drive to the, a garage in Evanston where he had prearranged the opportunity to park the car because he didn't want to drive in a great big city. He wasn't afraid of the bandits but he was afraid of the traffic.  In fact, he was a terrible driver. I always maintain that he never really made the transition from the horse and buggy; he thought the car could take care of itself. [Laughs]. When he used to drive from LaCrosse to Sparta, which is about 30 miles, he had an office in LaCrosse for another job that he had, State Patrol and Probation Officer, and when anybody in Sparta knew that he was in LaCrosse for the day, they would try to head home earlier than they knew he generally did, so that they wouldn't get behind him on the highway, because he literally was stopped at least a half a dozen times when there would be a new traffic cop who didn't know his car thinking he was a drunk driver because he would watch the scenery and forget to stay in his lane.  In any case, when we went to Chicago, he would then park in Evanston which I'm sure was a blessing for the entire metropolitan area. We took the elevated into town, into the loop and my dad and the three boys stayed at the YMCA and my mother and I stayed at the YWCA because those were the cheapest places in town. I guess my mother got dragged to the baseball games, although after we had done this a few times she would even beg off from going to the ball games. I got a little bored before the second game was over, especially if it lasted kind of late, but also sometimes my mother and I would, because we weren't staying with the men, would get up early. I remember one time we went to a morning matinee. We thought that would be so risque to go to a movie in the daytime. Oh I used to go Saturday afternoons to see the westerns in Sparta, but to go in the morning!  When we walked in, maybe we only did it once, I can't remember, my mother said "Isn't it strange that all of these men are sitting around in the theater, why aren't they working?" To see men at a movie in the morning, of course, then when the gals began walking out on the ramp and shedding their garments in between, she began to realize why there were so many men in the audience.

MA:	So it was a traditional matinee, but during intermission there was a burlesque show?

KC:	Yeah, yes, and it was in the morning. And I have thought many times that my mother took me to my first, if not only, striptease. I thought for the wife of a Methodist minister that was going some.

MA:	That’s wonderful.

00:21:07

KC:	I might tell you what the rest of my father's occupations were.  

MA:	Yeah, that would be good.

KC:	He, I don't know which was his primary identification, but he was a country minister, a country preacher, who had as many as eight parishes at one time which he would serve. Four services every Sunday: one at 9:00 in Leon, one at 11:00 at Big Creek and in the afternoon it would vary from Angelo to Cataract, alternate. He would alternate afternoon services around and then Sunday evening was always Rockland, which was a little town about six or seven miles away. Then he would have some Wednesday night services and some maybe just once a month in some remote, more remote places. Actually as many as 8 parishes going at once. He would meet the people, he was never great at remembering names and faces—oh he would remember the individual but forget where they lived, and so when he would meet people on the street and they'd say "now when are we having services again", if he couldn't remember where they lived he would have to say "now let’s see, when did we have it the last time?" and that would identify it for him. Mostly, his preaching was missionary work. He really didn’t, wasn't paid enough; they'd give him the collection and that would be about it. It rarely covered gas and oil, so that it really was no source of income. He did have an enormous number of weddings, funerals, baptisms and such, simply because he was known throughout several counties and in many, many rural communities.  

He and my mother used to be invited to country schools back in those days even when I was a kid. I say "even," as though it was only yesterday. There were still one-room schools, the consolidation movement hadn't....in fact it was a point of great discussion in our household. Both my parents thought that what would be gained in the education of the students would be a loss to the sense of community and the doing things together.  So, I used to sometimes tag along when they would be invited to judge the forensics contests or give the graduation address at an eighth grade event, and it was always kind of fun. Again, another of the historic things.  

Then my dad was a lawyer, again I have to call him a country lawyer, he called himself that, mostly pro-bono work, not by design, but because he always maintained that when a very poor client would go to one of the other attorneys in the community they could see that this was a nonpaying customer so they would be terribly busy and then say "But I think Frederick might have time, why don't you go and see him?" And I don't think he ever turned down anybody, certainly not because they didn't have money. Then he was a State Humane Officer, I think we have, I know we don't have such a one anymore, and in that capacity it was his job to investigate such complaints of people who were being unkind to animals. And so he would, and I remember many times going with him, he would sometimes work these calls on a farm where there had been a complaint in with other trips that he had to take. Or when we'd go on fishing trips, which was my mother's idea of a real vacation. She would pack up the 4 kids and my dad for a week and she'd stay home. And that was her idea.  

MA:	Oh, of course!

KC:	And we loved going with my dad because he never paid any attention to whether we were clean or not and the only time we would bathe was when we'd go swimming in the river or wherever we'd happen to be. Mother said we'd bring home the luggage with everything neatly folded just exactly the way she had packed it. We hadn't even fished up pajamas or toothbrush or anything.

MA:	Who did the cooking when you would go camping?

KC:	Well, usually the county sheriff or his wife.  My father was a past master at getting freebies and so he would stop in the jail and visit the, and often have business with parole or probation or something, I don't know, or he would manufacture some business, I guess, and he'd ask where there was a good place to eat or to stay overnight, many is the night we slept in jails and in actual jail cells.  Frequently the wife of the sheriff or the wife of the jailer would notice finally that one of us was a girl and say “oh, I don't think a little girl should sleep here.” I would be so horrified at being separated from the rest of the tribe that I did my best to insist that I stay there.

MA:	Were you mostly successful?

KC:	Mmmm hmmm, I was. So we often ate there but otherwise we ate inexpensive hamburgers and chocolate malts.

MA:	I see. So you didn't bring food with you, or that kind of thing?

KC:	No. I think we would have starved.  After my mother died, she was 74, my dad stayed in the house for several years and he did manage to fry an egg and a few simple things but he never did really learn how to prepare a meal.  I used to think he might suffer from botulism because he didn't wash things he just figured he was going to use it over again and it seemed unnecessary.

MA:	With everything you've said about your dad, I see that humanitarian thread all the way through.

KC:	That's right. And in fact, he had his office at home. I mentioned his office over in LaCrosse when he was, during the period when he was a State Parole and Probation Officer and that was actually his main source of income and his primary job. These other things he kind of sandwiched in, although they certainly took a great deal of time. Because his office was at home we all learned to be receptionists and message takers from, I suppose the time we could walk and talk. We had a steady stream then of people coming into our house who were either prisoners or trying to escape going to jail or bereaved people or, well, and a lot of poor folks.  They weren't all poor, so we were exposed to this as normal. These were not exceptions, these were kind of the way people were and the kind of problems people had to live with, and then this would be the conversation at our meals.  

00:29:08

My father was also a very political person.  He had been in our State Legislature before he was married, elected from Kendall, I'm hesitant to say from the same district that our current governor served from in the legislature, but in a different generation of course, and he ran for Congress, for United States Congress when I was quite young, maybe 1924 or 1926, he didn’t, he was not successful in his campaign.  It's a wonder to me that he even....when I see snapshots now of my dad going out by himself, maybe the kids would be along, putting posters up on rural posts and had little, maybe one little leaflet or something, but compared with the way a winning campaign has to be run today it was pretty slender.

00:30:10

	MA: What was your mother's role vis-a-vis all of this, when all of this was going on?

KC:	Well, in the first place, she had to tolerate having my father's office in the house. They worked out an accommodation, by my father would stay up half the night.  He would often work at his desk and he typed up his own correspondence until 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning. My mother got up at 6:00 every morning, in fact sometimes earlier than that, and would do her domestic chores. Well she got up early enough because she liked to write in her diary every morning before things got too thick. But then to have breakfast ready for four kids and herself and then to do the housework which we had a fairly large house and she worked just in ways that I never have had to work just to maintain the household. She did have some help, a cleaning lady, and then for some years we had what we called a school girl.

[Pause]

The school girls often stayed throughout their whole 4 years and really wanted to stay on longer.  They thought they were learning a lot and were always treated not like hired help, but very nicely.  My mother kept a very special eye on their wardrobe and made sure that they had the proper things.  They would go home on Friday after school and come back either Sunday night or Monday morning.  It did help her a lot to have somebody do the dishes or when we were very little, to keep an eye on us when she went out.

Now you ask what her role was.  She, my mother always did my dad's expense account for his State Parole and Probation and kind of kept track of other reports that were due.  She went with him to the Methodist conference every year, and not really out of a sense of duty.  She didn't function like the typical minister's wife.  In the first place, she did a lot of her own things.  She liked to play cards and in those days it was verboten in the Methodist Church, and she didn't care what the rules were.  She was a religious person and a spiritual kind of person.  She went every Sunday night to the Rockland church with my dad.  In fact it took me many years to figure out why I would be kind of down on Sunday nights, lonely, and I finally traced - no matter where I lived or what I was doing.  I finally kind of traced it back to that Sunday night service when both my mother and dad would be away.

MA:	And you weren't used to that kind of absence in the house?

KC:	I should have been used to it, it happened every Sunday, but I didn't like it I guess.  So when I had a family of my own I made Sunday nights very, very special.  I never absented myself on Sunday night.  I figured people were getting ready to start school on Monday morning so I always tried to plan something kind of special. Everybody would bathe and shampoo and clean pajamas and then we'd come downstairs and if it was fireplace weather we would read in front of the fire or do something to make it a nice, pleasant transition into Monday.  Or, so whatever.

MA:	And did that change your attitude about Sunday nights too?

KC:	Yes. That's probably why I did it.

MA:	I’m sure

KC:	And my mother would have to meet people at the door. We had lots of marriages in our living room and baptisms, and she would witness legal papers, so she participated really in all of those things that my father did.  But refused to teach Sunday School, well I shouldn't say refused, she did have a high school Sunday School class in the local Congregational Church, but not in any of my dad's churches.  I think she was very wise, he had ultimately a total of twelve (only eight at a time), but twelve different parishes and if she had offered to do something in one of them, and then the other eleven would nag at her, that could be her life, but she was interested in a lot of other things. She was a very community-minded person. Band Mothers Association was very big in the early days, would have fund raising events like pancake suppers to raise money to make, to buy uniforms and instruments for the band and the orchestra. And there never seemed to be tax dollars for those things and the school did provide, we had a very good high school and a good school system.  

My mother was elected to the School Board in a political election in the early 20's, very soon after women were granted the right to vote. She was the only woman for years on the School Board. I used to be teased by my friends in school who said the reason why I was on the high honor role all the time was because my mother was on the School Board. I don't think there was a great deal of truth to that.  My dad would get so excited on election night and he would phone down to the City County Building every half hour to see what the returns looked like and my mother was very calm about it.  I don't know if she felt assured she would be re-elected, which she always was, or whether—

00:36:37

—well, she was a calm person. Both of them are very calm. I commented to my son the other day, in what connection I can't remember, I said that I don't think that my mother or father ever raised their voice to any of us and I don't believe they ever did.  They never had to. In the first place, they didn't go around issuing commands and they had other ways of....my mother really would make Tom Sawyer look like a piker. She had an arrangement in our family three of us had blue eyes and three of us had brown eyes, of the kids we were two and two, so she found that a good way to create teams as good as any other. As it also turned out, I'm one of the blue eyed and my blue eyed brother Gordon was less interested in making his bed and picking up his clothes than the other boys were and so my mother knew that I would pick up any slack. So when she paired us off this way she perhaps knew more about us than the color of our eyes. In any case, she had a little chart in the kitchen and there was a whole series of things that we were expected to do and make our own bed and leave no clothes lying around and be down to breakfast by a certain time and then practice. I don't know how she stood it, my brother Bob played the clarinet, Gondy played the trombone and David a coronet and I practiced the piano and we would each practice simultaneously. She would find one in the basement and one upstairs one in the garage, the piano didn't get moved so I was in the same place. Each day, as a team, we would get marks on the chart, not as individuals and then at the end of the week the team that had the best grades or score would get to scrub the kitchen floor and the back porch, we'd divide that up and the poor losers would have to scrub the front porch and sweep the garage. So we vied for the opportunity to scrub the kitchen floor.

00:39:28

MA:	What do you think you gained from all of this?  What character traits do you have that you think came from these early years?

KC:	I think caring about other family members, certainly, and enjoying one another. When we were old enough to be going to college and be home on vacations we would, the 4 of us, would do the dishes after dinner.  In fact meals at our house, in my Frederick birth family, were very prolonged always. None of this coming in when you got around to it, with lots of conversation at the table so anyway, when we were older and home, we told my mother don't worry how long we sit at the table, you're not to touch anything when the meal is over and then we had this division of labor -- Gordon would clear the table, I would scrape and get things organized and then I would wash the dishes and Bob and David would dry and Gondy would by that time be able to put things away and we had it down to such a system that no one ever had to say, "Why aren't you doing this?" and we just did it, but we would sing quartets all the time we were doing the dishes. We all had pretty good singing voices, in fact my two older brothers did a lot of performing, solo and we all sang in choral groups so that we all had fun.  So, even doing dishes would be fun; it wasn't anything that was a chore. I think there is some carryover in that.  I think that with our kids that doing their school work or their political work or their community work were much more important than emptying wastebaskets or setting the table. It never would have occurred to me to drag one of our kids down from homework or studying in order to do some simplistic chore. On the other hand, we didn't hand out assignments, we just figured when something had to be done whoever had the time to do it ought to see it needed to be done and do it. I can remember saying that one time when Janet, my youngest, was applying for AFS (American Field Service) and she did go then to the Netherlands for a year, this committee of three women came here to see us in our native habitat and to evaluate whether it would be appropriate to send one of our kids and they asked me, "What were Janet's assigned duties around the house?" and I said "Oh gee, she doesn't have any, and neither does anybody else." When I tried to explain the system I think they thought I was making it up, but we had always functioned this way. Sometimes one or another of us, including me and my husband, would be over extended and simply could not do what we thought we were going to, or that was expected, and we would send out an SOS and drag in the help. You know, if I just had another meeting, and wasn't going to have time to finish preparing a meal, then I would sound off upstairs and say "Who can help?  I need help!" and somebody would come. I remember a number of occasions when David had volunteered to do political addressing envelopes or something at a very young age, and it would get to be a much longer task than he had bargained for, and I would just sit down and say, "Here let me help," and if one of the girls came around they would say "Ok, I'll give you half an hour." I mean that we would see that the job got done. Those were all the kinds of things, and an interest in justice and caring about other people, not in a mushy kind of bleeding heart way, but in seeing what needed to be done and doing it. When there would be a death in our neighborhood or a fire in the community or something I never heard my mother say "I wonder what I could do?" She would go ahead and do—send clothing or dishes to a burned out family or have the little ones in a family where there was a death come and stay overnight just to be in an atmosphere that was a little different for children.

MA:	Thinking back to the tasks and the woman from the American Friends Service Committee, did she ultimately ask "Well who does the tasks?" and did she assume that the task load then fell on you?

KC:	No. I think we illustrated with some of these things, and that kind of put her mind at rest.

MA:	It's a nice example of equality manifesting itself in the home.

KC:	My husband set an example which a lot of men in households do not necessarily set. Now I'm back at the Eton Ridge household, the Clarenbach household. My husband was a cook and could and did do any kind of domestic chores. He was very neat and would never throw dirty clothes—I know people who complain 
about having to pick up dirty clothes from their kids or their spouse. That was never a problem here. I also liked to organize so it made it easier. I wanted children's closets to be accessible and available with sufficient drawer space. Each of our kids had a desk in their room and had whatever equipment was necessary so that it was convenient for them and easy to be organized and tidy. When they had no examples of disorganized people around, they just assumed that was the way you live.

[pause/break]

00:46:47

MA:	You wanted to say more about your mother.

KC:	I guess what I wanted to say was that while she did a lot of her own things I know that she wasn't totally happy, that she felt as though she were missing a lot in life. One of the reasons she encouraged me to follow my own professional leanings , etc., was again based on her own experience. She also used to tell me more than once, if you wait until you can afford to do something, you'll never do it. So don't be so provident. Now that is advice that I didn't follow as well as I should have, but I am offering the same advice to my children. She also said that she felt that if she had done more of the things she wanted to do, she probably wouldn't have had arthritis and high blood pressure and other ailments.

MA:	She felt that she internalized some of her frustration?  Is that what she was saying?

KC:	That isn't the way she said it but, yes I'm sure that's what she meant. She also said, and my kids loved this advice and I passed it along to them, "You don't go on a vacation to save money." I used to say "Or to lose weight!" Those were some of her little pearls and tidbits. My mother and dad used to take vacations or little trips or do things separately from each other. My mother had trips to both coasts. For years she would save what she would call her cigarette money. There was a period when all 4 of us, my 3 brothers and I all smoked, and when we'd be home we'd have someone pick up a carton of cigarettes for each of us, so then my mother would put the equivalent, which in those days was about a dollar, into her little slush fund and would save that for her trips. She belonged to a women's organization called PEO and she'd go to state conventions for that and sometimes out to the the west coast. She had a couple of very favorite relatives who lived in San Francisco and she liked to visit them and other good friends scattered here and there, so she would go by herself for a couple of weeks and she belonged to organizations so she'd go out evenings for meetings and things that my dad had no interest in and didn't go to. He did a lot of his ministerial and other things by himself without her.

When Hank and I were married 41 years ago his experience with his parents in Missouri was a totally different thing. I don't think either his mother or father had ever, except his father going to work at the post office, had done anything that they didn't do together. They played pinochle on weekends with friends and went to church so that when I announced I was going to go do something that Hank wasn't involved in, he was absolutely surprised and kind of shocked at first. It took him several weeks to get used to the notion that I was going to go to places that had nothing to do with him.

00:50:38

You did ask me whether my dad ever had any emoluments, perks or honorariums for his church work and the answer to that is yes. He never charged, but if anybody offered him 5 or 10 or 2 dollars. When I was in high school I often played the piano or the organ for funerals that my father conducted. We had an old church organ down in our basement that you pump by foot and pull out stops and I could practice on that and then I had a couple of girlfriends who sang and we would sing duets of appropriate funeral music. When he had a funeral out in the country, in somebody's home, most funerals in those days were conducted not even in the churches, the real rural ones were in people's homes. My dad would offer to split his "take" with the musicians. But more often than not there was no "take" to split. When I had given up a whole summer afternoon, well more than that with rehearsal time and then going out there and hanging around, I finally made a business arrangement with my father that I would get $2 everytime I did it, whether he was paid or not, and he finally agreed. My dad played the piano, actually all 4 of us were somewhat musical, played an instrument and sang and liked to sing, and my father was quite musical. My mother, I used to say mercifully, did not offer to sing in any of the churches because my mother wasn't a singer and didn't play. In her later years she started to try to learn to play the piano and used to practice a lot, but it didn't take very well.  My dad could play 3 songs on the piano— Nearer My God to Thee, Rock of Ages and I can't remember what the third one was. Frequently he'd go to one of his Sunday services and there wasn't a soul in the crowd who could play the organ or piano so then he would go over and that was what they would sing that day.

00:53:20

MA:	I was thinking about your mother, did she ever talk to you about what it was like when suffrage was passed in 1920?

KC:	No, she never did. My mother died just the year that we had the first statewide Status of Women Conference in Wisconsin, 1974, and in fact, the very month of that conference which I chaired. I am sure had she lived beyond that, that the things that I was deeply involved in we would have talked about. I certainly did talk about them with my father over the years. My dad used to point out to me from the time I can remember, certainly in grade school, whenever a woman was doing something of special note or something unusual, he would call that to my attention, if he read an article. In fact, on our western trips that year that I was five or six, we went to Aimee Semple McPherson's tabernacle and heard her preach and almost got thrown out. My dad had taken little opera glasses so we could get a better look at her and an usher came down and told him to put those away, we weren't allowed to do that. We saw Amelia Earhart and read articles about Catherine Lenroot who was head of the children's fund or department or something in Washington, so he was always pointing out those things.  My mother had 2 friends right in Sparta who wrote and published books, so women of achievement at any level were their friends, and people that we met and talked to.

MA:	You grew up with role models or knowledge of role models?

KC:	Yes, and had some wonderful teachers all through my grade and high school -- women teachers as well as a few men.

MA:	Do you recall the women teachers?

KC:	Yes. You are reminding me of another wonderful institution in our Frederick household. Because my mother had been a teacher and because she remembered how lonely those early weeks would be, she started, from the time my brother Bob started school, she would always invite his teacher or teachers to come for dinner at our house.  By the time there were four of us in school, to invite each of our teachers, plus the one we had last year plus the music teacher and the gym teacher it finally reached the point where she just invited all of the teachers.  Our house wasn't really big enough, big as it was, so they finally rented a place, a cabin or lodge, kind of a precursor to motels really, out on the outskirts of town, and made arrangements to rent the place and have them prepare the meal (Farrington's camp).

We always had all kinds of games at our house and sometimes we played something called coffeepot which was kind of like charades and cootie and games of various kinds anyway, we would have just a hilarious evening and a couple of the teachers I can remember speaking to me, wanting to be sure that even though we had acted foolish at home that I wasn't to carry this over into the classroom. I already knew that, I didn't need to be coached and yet they were unaccustomed to having fun and letting their hair down in front of their students. That became such an institution that I can remember a couple of years that my mother hadn't given it a thought and she'd get a phone call from some of the teachers saying "When are you having your party because we want to be sure to save the date?" That would then goad her into doing it, and that was kind of fun. Then over the year, if there were teachers that we especially liked, we would have them for Sunday dinner. That is something that we have done a little bit of as parents too, to get to know the kid's teachers personally.

MA:	Bridging that gap between your personal life and education must have made it easier for you to go on also, that education a mysterious thing.

KC:	That's right.

00:59:18

MA:	What about religion?  We've talked about your dad being a preacher, a parson, how did you feel about it?  Did you consider yourself a religious person?

KC:	I certainly was a "Sunday go to meeting" person. We for a variety of reasons, my brothers and I went to Sunday school, not in the local Methodist Church but in the Congregational Church, which was a block closer to our house. My mother had grown up in that Congregational Church, but I think the real reason that we opted to go there, and more of our friends went their than to the Methodist church, there were other churches in town as well.

MA:	The Methodist Church was where your father preached?

KC:	My father was a Methodist minister but he did not service the Sparta Methodist Church. I think there was always a little bit of competitive tension between whoever was occupying that pulpit and my dad. Now my dad stayed for 50 years doing those country churches. He would go to conference every year. I don't know if you know how the Methodist Church functions, but the Bishop and the Regional District Superintendent assign ministers to parishes and they don't always have an option. So my dad would make a joke every year, gee he'd wonder if he was going to get Big Creek and Rockland back again or if somebody else was going to get assigned there because no one else would take it on a bet, and the churches did just kind of wither away after he stopped preaching.  But the incumbent in the local Sparta church would be changed from time to time, maybe every 4 or 5 years or whatever, that's just the practice I guess of the Methodist Church. So with my father getting all of the many weddings, funerals, baptism, etc., often of people who went to the local church but who knew him and liked him, or he might have married their parents or their brother and sister so they wanted him also and whether there really was rivalry or whether my father suspected there might be or maybe he didn't want his kids blabbing all of the family skeletons. I don't know, but there never was any objection. I went to Sunday school, which I continued to do all the way through high school. We had a marvelous woman who moved to town when her husband died and whose family had lived there a long time who made our Sunday School really a Social Science course more than anything else so that this same gang of otherwise reasonably sophisticated girls we were segregated by males and females so these were gals and just wouldn't have missed and we'd 
prepare and think through what were going to do. Then I went to a Sunday evening young peoples' thing. I sang in the choir, I ushered, that was kind of unusual too when we were in high school the summertime head usher was the father of one of my friends, so for one month he would have girls usher and pass the collection plate.

MA:	How did you feel about that when he did it?

KC:	We thought it was great! We didn't really think about it as a revolution 

01:03:08

End of Tape 1/ Start of Tape 2

00:00:03

Frequently all four of us kids were asked to go to the Big Creek 11:00 service with my father.  We would go from Sunday School and walk the length of the main drag and meet my father at an intersection where he'd be coming from his earlier service so he wouldn't have to drive out of the way, and also he was never ahead of time.  He never hurried and he always said about his services "they aren't going to start until I get there." So he would take his sweet time. Now that is something I didn't learn from my dad; my mother was always terribly prompt and ahead of time and I am always terribly prompt and ahead of time and have spent much of my life waiting for people who are not prompt. However, I anticipate that and always take something along to read or write or whatever. So we did go to that one Sunday morning service with my father quite routinely, and then later on when I was singing in the choir I would have to skip that, but we became quite well known. In fact, there are several pews in that big church that had my brother's initials carved; I would never deface a church pew or anything else but unfortunately my brother Gordon had no qualms about doing that. On Sunday afternoon, lots of times, I would ask if I could go with him because when just the two of us were in the car we had such fun. We would sing or talk, but sing an awful lot. Furthermore, by the time I was 12, when we would get off the main road onto a real country lane he would let me drive. I have actually been driving a car since I was 12, although you couldn't drive legally in Wisconsin until 14 in those days. But lots of other Sunday afternoons my brothers and their friends and sometimes girlfriends of mine would go with my dad. We had several very special places that we liked. There were some hills around the Tomah area that he would pass on his way to Wyeville or Valley Junction where we liked to hike. He would dump us out on his way to church and we would have a couple of hours then we would wait until we heard his horn honk. At Cataract there was a country school that had a round-and-round and some swings which was another place so we would put on our woods clothes and go there. I think mother was always delighted when we would be out of the house. Sundays were a nightmare, for her. She didn't behave as though she were having a nightmare but to get all of us dressed and on our way and then to juggle the timing of all of these services and then to have a noon meal, a real Sunday dinner ready, and then to clean up that mess and have an evening meal, and then for herself to be ready to go with my dad, which she did every Sunday night was just a hectic kind of day. There was a period later, we were still in high school at the time, when my mother would really want to eat Sunday dinner out. We didn't do it very many times but there was a Briggson Hotel in Sparta that specialized in Sunday dinners. Now that I think of it, I didn't think of it at the time, what a relief to her it was and would have been if we had done it more often and regularly but I am sure she had to almost plead to have it done at all, and then my father would grumble about what it was costing. So that is another aspect of....I think there were many times when my mother would like to have done something that cost a little bit and my father was always very generous in one sense and with us but paying for a meal out seemed like an extravagance to him—

00:04:57

—and not a recognition of all the energy that was being drained from my mother. I don't think he ever recognized that. I think when she paid her cleaning lady she would almost do it on the QT because he didn't like to have somebody else around, an outsider around in the house and he couldn't understand why somebody who kept the house as neat and clean as my mother, she would do laundry twice a week, 4 men with wash trousers and shirts and my dad's shirts had to be starched at the collar and cuffs, the ironing and in those days they ironed sheets and pillow cases and every item of clothing and on Thursdays my mother would clean the upstairs and change all the sheets and on Fridays clean the downstairs until it sparkled and then on Saturday bake.

MA:	Did you carry that through in your marriage? When you first married did you expect that you also would clean a different level of the house each day of the week?

KC:	No, I don't think that my standards have ever been quite as high as my mothers were and furthermore the whole routine of spring and fall housecleaning has happily gone by the boards, but she did that. When we first moved back to Madison and we had a couple of years of underemployment, the first year or so I hadn't gone back to work, but even when I did, what I was paid by Edgewood and the Extension for those parttime things hardly covered the babysitter so there were several years when we had no cleaning lady and that was just absolutely dreadful because I would spend the weekend, Saturday and Sunday, doing groceries and cleaning. I didn't have to set aside a day to do laundry because we had a washer and drier.  I had less time with the kids to do family things because of domestic chores than I had the rest of the week. As soon as we had any income we hired a cleaning person and have the same one now that we've had for 22 years. She tells me she is getting on in years and I tell her she daren't!

MA:	When you were a young woman in your twenties, do you think you had the awareness then that you seem to have now about how hard your mother's life was, relatively speaking?

KC:	No, I doubt it. I was a little aware of it. One summer my mother was in the hospital for about six weeks or so.  She had a hysterectomy and then complications and I was, I can't remember but maybe 14. We had no substitute at home and so I did the cooking and cleaning. I also was playing golf that summer with the junior golfers so I would get everything as close to done, but I even did canning and made jelly and jam that summer because those were things that were on the schedule. So I had some little notion. My mother used to have to can, she would can meat—some farmer would give us half a beef—and then my dad would keep coming home from the service with a crate of strawberries that needed to be done right then or they would begin to rot and some of those things that were just a real added chore for my mother. The only time, and I've told this story many times, that my father ever used good sense, and what an inner struggle he must have, had this person who wasted nothing, I mean he wore the same pair of shoes, he would polish them like a good military man, I forgot to tell you that he'd been a colonel in the Army Reserves and used to go to summer camp also, but one year the Cataract parish decided to pay him an annual salary. They paid him in pumpkins! This was during the depression when no one in the parish had any money, so they loaded up his car with pumpkins and he started home and he thought to himself that if he walked in and told my mother,."It's a load of pumpkins," that she might walk out the other door.  Yet he couldn't bear to waste them, and he didn't dare let his parishioners know he wasn't taking them home and, I suppose if we'd had nursery schools then he could have let each kid have a pumpkin, but we didn't have, so at least he had the good judgment to stop at a quiet, dark place and dump all but 4 of them in the gutter someplace on the way home and not come in with them, and for him to part with anything was a wrench.

00:10:57

MA:	I'd like to go back to religion for just a second. Do you think that it had an influence in terms of your social change? I'm trying to see the connection there. Was it a form of religion in which you did take responsibility for your fellows? I'm wondering what the transference was for you in terms of your later life?

KC:	When I came here to Madison I didn't go to any, oh I went to things at the YWCA, in fact I was an elected officer there, but after a few weeks here I didn't want to take the time to go to church and it didn't seem a necessary thing for me at all. A lot of my friends and people who lived in the same sorority house that I did went to church, and one or two years a couple people prevailed upon me to sing in a Baptist choir when they did their Easter cantata and that was kind of fun, but when I wrote and told the family I was doing that they immediately said I would have to be immersed and began teasing me a little bit about that. I did, I suppose, things that were sort of religiously oriented sometimes; I was chair of the University Peace Federation and active in an open housing thing. I don't even know to this day how religious I am. I never did, even as a youngster, know what people meant with a lot of the rhetoric that went with religion. "Give yourself to God," I didn't know what that meant and I still don't know what that means, and "are you saved" and these things.

MA:	How would you define what other people call religion for yourself?

KC:	I don't know. I think that it is terribly important to follow one's conscience, but as far as I'm concerned that has less to do with whether I smoke a cigarette than how I behave politically and as a human being with other human beings.  

00:13:41

KC:	My parents used to bring home, as guests in our house, any foreign missionaries that they would encounter anywhere partly just because they were hospitable, but also because they wanted us to have a chance to meet somebody who had lived in a different culture and who had different perspectives on things. In fact, the only Black people I'd every met in my life, until I came here to the University, were ministers or missionaries, mostly from other countries who were invited into our house. I remember my dad and I used to have a lot of political discussions that my mother wouldn't enter into, and the boys, I don't remember their taking much part in it either. My father and I didn't mind disagreeing with each other at all, in fact we both rather enjoyed it and sometimes that upset my mother. We didn't argue, I mean didn't call each other names, but we would differ about some things and that kind of upset her a little bit. We would always do this at the table when we were eating when we had these discussions. One time, and this is the one that I am recalling, my father told an "Eleanor" joke. This was during the early days, my dad had been a Republican, a progressive Republican and until my own kids began to convert him to being a follower of Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern I think he continued to be pretty much, well that's not entirely true either, he joined the union at one point to, but this must have been in the early regimen of FDR and my father told one of these, they were very current in those days, snide remarks about Eleanor Roosevelt. I don't remember the subject but anyway my father repeated one of these that he had heard and it troubled me I said "What don't you like about Eleanor? Don't you like her because she thinks niggers are as good as white folks?" It never had occurred to him, because my father was not a racist and in fact he deplored race discrimination as much as I had learned and have subsequently learned to do.  He had never realized that here he was making fun of Eleanor Roosevelt, whereas she was giving public leadership on this issue that meant something to him. That was the last "Eleanor" joke ever told in our house.

MA:	How old were you at that time?

KC:	I was probably in high school so I was between 12 and 16.

MA:	So it was important to you that Eleanor was there?

KC:	Yes

MA:	Did you ever listen to her radio show or read her columns?

KC:	Yes, a little bit. I didn't hear her much on the radio. I remember her voice was not good, and in fact a lot of my older friends who did like her didn't think her column "My Day" was much either. I guess I wasn't feeling like a critic. I can remember how terribly excited I was the time I met her in the national museum. We just rode up on an elevator together and I was surprised to see she was as tall as I am and we just said hello and that was about it, but it was just a very exciting moment for me.

MA:	You were in high school at that time?

KSC:	No. This time I was in Washington, it was during World War II but the conversation with my father was when I was in high school.

MA:	My father changed with the times too and moved a bit. When I was at the university, either first or second year, he came to pick me up one time or was in town and came to take me to lunch or something and when he walked in, I was living at the Alpha Chi Omega sorority house, and when he walked in said "I'd like to use the phone if I could," and that was kind of unusual; usually if he had to make a phone call he'd stop at a filling station and take care of it. I said "sure, the phone is right there". He said, "I have to call brother Kulpinsky" (I'm not sure I have that name right).  I just thought it was another Methodist minister and I said "who is that"? He said "He's president of the union of state, county and municiple workers," My dad was a State Patrol and Probation Officer, and then he kind of, he wanted me to know this but he just couldn't come right out, so he had to hem-and-haw around with this miserable phone call and then he said "You know, I realize that the union has done a lot for those of us in my position in salary and benefits and that the least I could do is to join and pay dues."  For a person who grew up with all the negative stereotypes of unions, to not only make that change, but then to have to confess it to his great critic was kind of nice.

00:19:41

End of First Interview Session/ Second Interview Session (September 22, 1987), Tape 2

00:19:46

MA:	Kay, to continue from last week, lets talk about your mother a little.  You had mentioned that she had a full life but in some respects was dissatisfied.

KC:	I will begin by saying I suppose that my mother was a very warm and motherly kind of person. Not only beloved by her own children but by all of our friends and neighbors, and as we grew not only when we were very young, but over the years so that our friends always liked to come to our house and she was always quite welcoming to them. My mother, I think I already mentioned that she taught country school and then taught in a couple of smaller communities, and in fact was a school teacher when she met my dad and he was already in the state legislature and he was the local preacher. She told me at one time a terribly funny story about their courtship. I think she never dared to laugh to him or at him about it because even in late years he was apparently still a little bit sensitive about it. But while he would be in Madison attending the legislative session she apparently on some occasions dated some other person in town, and the joke that my mother told was that when my father found out about this, either from her or however, he said to her "I suppose you went to eat some of that inferior ice cream at the ice cream parlor," and of course it was the only place in town, but because she was with someone else it was inferior. She got a kick out of that.

	We all, all four of us kids, had a built-in tutor at our house in the person of my mother. She loved teaching.  She used to tutor kids in town who were having trouble in school and their mother's would call and say, "Would you help with whatever it was," writing, math, whatever. So by the time we were doing homework, which was not as prevalent in those days as it certainly has become, and....we would sit around the dining table and mother would sit with us and help. We always had an unabridged dictionary in my father's study, he had a study in our house. In fact, in the dining room, in addition to studying at that table, we had a big blackboard that covered one whole wall where we could play and write when we were little but we could do arithmetic, etc. That is also where we left phone messages for my dad and my mother would write "funeral 2:00" etc. They would be reminders to him, and much safer to leave messages for him on the blackboard than to leave a note on his desk because his desk was always a mess and he didn't like to have my mother help him clean his desk or his office, he knew just under which pile to look for what.  He would let me help him clear his desk; I would take the time to say, "Where does this go and where does that go?" whereas my mother would just want to do it in a hurry and shuffle things together. I always thought it was interesting that later on when my own daughter, Sara, was old enough to help grandpa, he would let her help him clean his desk. As far as I know, we were the only two people who were ever cheerfully allowed to do that.

My mother also was quite a reader.  I don't know whether I've mentioned on a previous tape her little arrangement with the Carnegie Library in Sparta which was presumably the first one in the state, the first Carnegie endowed library was in our little town, but she had an arrangement with the head librarian that whenever they got in a new book they would phone her at once and give her first dibs on it. We had a little place on the landing of our staircase where between the posts my mother would keep the library books that needed to be returned. She despaired of my ever becoming a reader. I did go to the summer reading programs at the library when I was in the early grades and would read the required 25 or however many books in order to get the diploma or gold star or whatever. Reading was not my favorite activity, in fact, all through high school I think I didn't read just for fun very much. I read a few books, especially those that I would receive for Christmas or birthdays or whatever.

MA:	Did you have a favorite kind of literature?

KC:	I loved "Little Women" and earlier than that "The Bobbsey Twins" and Nancy Drew books of course I read, but nothing very deep I guess. It was only in much later years that I began to read for fun and for something to do.  I was much too busy with outdoor things all through high school really to ever have time to want to just sit and read.  

MA:	You mentioned sports—that your mother was able to play in competitive sports with other schools on girl's teams.

KC:	That's right, when she was in high school, Sparta High School 30 years before I was; she graduated in 1907.  They used to go by train to Wisconsin Rapids and other towns and play basketball and in fact she told me many times about going when she had what they called quinsy in those days, it was a terribly sore throat probably like a strep throat, and she would conceal that from her mother so that she could still go to the basketball tournaments or games.  

00:26:55

MA:	But by the time I was in high school, or well before that, interscholastic sports for girls had totally left the scene and had not been reinstated. My brothers were all on every athletic team, of course that's one of the joys of living in a small town, you do everything because they need enough bodies to do it although my brothers were fairly athletic.

KC:	It sounds like you were too.

MA:	Yes I was. I recently had occasion to look in my high school yearbook when we had our 50th high school reunion this year and noted that I had been captain of the volleyball and basketball teams. I don't remember that I was ever the softball captain but I played softball. I did a lot of things that were not team sports. I played golf a lot and swam and ice skated and skied.

MA:	Did you continue those activities throughout your later life?

KC:	Not really. Swimming, and had every high hope of playing golf when we moved back to Madison 27 years ago, when we thought we would be able to afford it. On Statan Island golf was very expensive by the time you paid a baby sitter and everything. Those hopes were dashed along with quite a few other things when I went back to work and maintained a household with three kids. I just had to cut out quite a few things, one of which was the possibility of playing golf.

MA:	Because of time?

KC:	Yes. Another was concert tickets. The first few years we were here we bought season tickets to the Union Theater performances and a few other things and found that we were not using the tickets. I realized that was another aspect of life that would have to go for awhile.

MA:	We'll get back to that; that's interesting what you had to give up to keep your professional life.

KC:	Yes, professional and domestic.

00:29:29

MA:	You had talked about your mother's trips, that she took separate trips from your father.

KC:	She did. They had sufficiently different interests. My mother had many friends and a few relatives whom she loved to visit; a sister in Florida and a sister in Texas, friends in California and an aunt in California. She would, not every year but every few years, arrange a trip for a couple of weeks and would have a wonderful time. She loved planning the whole thing and accumulating wardrobe and making arrangements. My mother came to see us, I lived far enough away from Sparta for enough years so that it was fun for them and for us to have my mother and dad come and visit.  They frequently came separately; my mother came many more times than my father did to visit us. It was always, whether either or both, a red carpet event for my kids and for my husband and me when they were coming to visit. Their other two offspring, my two brothers, lived near enough, one right in Sparta and the other 25 miles away in LaCrosse so that it wasn't such a state occasion when there was a visit.  But for us, we would plan it, when we knew that either one or the other was coming, plan it for weeks in advance, every menu item and the kids had to have pickled herring for grandpa and we had to have this and that. Once my mother came to visit us by herself when we lived in St. Louis on the occasion of David's birth or when he was just a few weeks old and, my mother loved this when I told her, Sara was four or nearly five I guess, and came to me one morning while my mother was there absolutely indignant, scolding me this little five year old was, she said "I think it's perfectly terrible the way you make Nina work when she is here." I said "Make her work?  What did I make her do?" "Well she was just making her bed and I think it’s terrible that you make her do that." My mother got an awful kick out of that because actually we never had her lift a finger except that she would read to the kids and that was about the extent of what we made her do. She would also do a little mending for me and a few little chores like that. The preparation that my children engaged in in anticipation of any visit from my parents was fun.

I had visits from my mother and dad long before I was married. A couple of them that I recall, especially in Washington during World War II. My youngest brother, David, was killed in a plane crash as an aviation cadet in 1943, early 1943, and I was in Washington with the War Production Board, and this was a most devastating experience for my father who thought there had to be a religious message in this. As a very devout Methodist minister he kept seeking, why did this happen, and why to him I suppose. He even sought out other religious people to discuss this with, and in the process in which he really behaved like somebody who was demented -- well I'm exaggerating in the use of that word—but it was just constantly on his mind and it was very, very hard on my mother. Not only hard to lose her youngest child, but also to have to be living with my father when he was going through all of this, so she wrote and kind of pleaded with me to invite him to come and visit me in Washington. She thought that getting away from home would be good for him, but it would be even better for her to have him gone for awhile. I did extend the invitation and he did come. All my friends rallied and we had a wonderful time, good meals and ate out and went to the theater. Then he left Washington to go visit his sister on Statan Island, where he was going to spend a week, and after he had been there two days he telephoned me in Washington to ask if he could come back instead of spending the rest of the week with his sister and would I please get theater tickets for the gang as his guests, which we did. It really did what my mother had hoped it would do and it was fun for me. I had a few dread moments before he came, myself, wondering whether he was going to upset me and my friends but, on the contrary, he entered into the whole activity and it was good for him.

My mother came on a number of occasions to Washington by herself and I particularly recall the time that she went with, I have two friends with whom I used to go to the race track once in awhile, and she thought that sounded like such fun that they arranged to take her one Saturday when I was not able to go, I had to work on that day, so she took me into the little dressing room of our apartment and hauled out this role of bills and wondered it that would be enough money to put on the horses. I just loved this idea of the country preacher’s wife with her wad of money to go to the races.

MA:	Do you recall how she did?

KC:	No. It's possible that she didn’t ever tell me. We never did go to the races in order to make money. We just took as much money as we needed to come and go and eat and if we made a couple of bucks we'd put it right back on the next race.

00:36:28

MA:	You had also talked about your mother's role as an educator.  I wanted to back up for just a second -- was it necessary for her to quit teaching public school because she married, was that a law in Wisconsin at the time?

KC:	I don't know if it was a requirement, or if it was just de regour. My hunch was that it was just the thing to do.

MA:	In some states it was a law.

KC:	Yes, I know it was, particularly during the depression, but of course this was before the depression. My parents were married in 1913.

MA:	As you look back on your mother it's clear to me that your sense of family and what family meant, came from the influences of your own family. But on a personal level what qualities do you feel that you have that were influenced significantly by her?

KC:	I think, I don't know qualities so much as behavior, I don't know how one distinguishes those. My mother was a very dignified person and a calm person, respectful of other people. There was never any sense of class in our family, that I think partly because of the kinds of people who came to our house because my dad's office was there not only rural but people of all walks, people came to see him for legal or for ministerial or for parole and probation or whatever. Then my mother's activity in the Church Women United and some of the school functions and other community activities. People were kind of evaluated as individuals and were respected as individuals. I think that is something that really caught without ever saying it; that you don't distinguish on the basis of people's income or experience or rank or job title or whatever, we just absorbed this, it's the way both of my parents behaved.

MA:	They truly did not see themselves as being a class above or below?

KC:	Nor did they see other people in that light. I think that's something. I think the whole way my mother brought up kids, again, treating us with respect, and I think we've done that with our children. Again, a lot of this is tacit, I mean nobody ever said, "Do this." Then, the way we celebrated holidays and birthdays, I've patterned just totally I think the way things were done in my birth family and the way we liked it. I mentioned that on birthdays everybody gets a present, in fact, my Janet for example, cherishes gifts she has received on David's birthday sometimes even more than things from her own birthday, and lots of Christmas packages and lots of celebration at Christmas time. My mother had a knack of making us think we had the greatest Christmases that anyone in the world ever had by wrapping up necessaries, etc., and that was always fun. My mother also had a little store of gifts in a linen closet that she had upstairs that always smelled good from smelly soap. She would just stockpile guest towels or note paper or a nice bar of soap or something and would be able to haul them out if she discovered it was somebody's birthday or whatever. That's something that I also have mimicked. My mother also kept one little overnight case packed in case she was ever asked at the eleventh hour to go someplace. She had several friends, women in Sparta who drove cars and who would occasionally want to go someplace that would involve an overnight, and I guess they knew that if they called my mother she was likely to say yes. She never had to worry about did she have a clean nightgown or whatever, she kept this one just for occasions of that kind.  Now that I don't do. Well, I do have a traveling outfit, pajamas, robe and slippers, that I only use for travelling and then I know they're clean and ready to go, but I don't keep them in an overnight case.

MA:	I sense, though, that you may have gotten some of your organizational skills just through living with your mother all those years.

KC:	Yes, I forgot to say how highly organized she was with lists and a place in the kitchen, it wasn't actually a desk but it functioned as a desk, and she would write down menus and kept a running shopping list. I don't ever remember her running out of stuff or having anyone have to run to the store because she was highly organized.
Of course in my very young youth, we could order from the grocery store—pick up the telephone and read off your list and it would be delivered. And the milkman came; in fact, the milkman with his horse, it was the same man who used to deliver when my mother was, before she was married. He was still—and the horse knew when to stop and when to start, and that was—

00:44:08

MA:	Let’s move to your education, now; your formal, as opposed to your informal education. Tell me about beginning public school.

KC:	Well, I probably was one of the longest students in Wisconsin at the time. I started school at the age of 2 1/2 and went until I was, well, 25, I guess, with a Ph. D. with just a few years out for other activity. But I did start kindergarten at 2 ½, trailing my next older brother. My mother was home with the baby and then she’d have to dress the baby and herself and go trail down to school and drag me home, until finally the teacher said, “Let her stay,” and stay I did, but for 2 ½ years until I was old enough for first grade and it was very disappointing to me not to be promoted along with the other kids.

MA:	And you had the skills to be promoted?

KC:	Well, I certainly thought I did. However, my last year in kindergarten the teacher was very happy to have me there. I knew my way around, of course, so she could send me over to the other building to get a jar of paste or whatever supplies she might be out of. Also, I was very helpful to her in interpreting one of the—there was a student in kindergarten that last year with a very difficult speech impediment; and poor Ms. Griswald, the teacher, whom I adored, couldn’t understand this child and I could, so that I was useful in that sense too.
I once had a birthday party that last year in kindergarten that my parents like to remind me of. At the time I naturally thought nothing about it, but on my birthday, which is October 7th, I brought the kindergarten class home for a birthday party; and I had issued the invitation verbally a few days in advance, but had failed to mention it to my mother and father. And my teacher didn’t think to clear with my mother and dad, because I was so responsible and our family was so inclusive in that it seemed very natural—perfectly normal. And so my mother and dad did not bat an eye when 30 kids and the teacher came hiking from school in the afternoon. And never once said a word to me about “why did you do this?” And luckily it was nice weather—some years there’s a little snow on October 7th and some years it’s practically still swimming weather. Well this was a nice day, so we played games outdoors, my mother sent my dad down to the local dairy to get five gallons of ice cream and some cones, and those were the refreshments that were served and—

	[tape cuts off—Clarenbach talks about technical difficulties regarding another interview]

Tape 2, Side 2				

00:48:10

MA:	We were talking about your school experience.

KC:	That's right and I had gotten into kindergarten. Well, I finally did make it into first grade and then the first grade teacher had me take first and second grade in the same year, which was fine because I had been reading quite awhile before I started first grade. As a matter of fact, I think I got to be a junior or senior in high school before it even began to dawn on me that people went to school to learn something new. I mostly went to school to kind of show off what I already knew. I'm sure I was learning new things as I went along, but we had what I loved at the time but I think was an unfortunate practice in my high school, or junior high as well as high school, "A" students, students who had a solid "A" in a course, were exempt from final exams.  I had never taken a final exam in my life until I came to the university.

MA:	How was it?

KC:	It was a shock! In fact I looked forward to those three days of vacation at the end of each term because while the other kids were taking exams I would have a holiday. One year I did cheat in junior high, my mother was a collaborator. I think of my mother as a completely honest person and in fact I think of myself as an honest person, but in seventh grade we had to take sewing the first semester and cooking the second semester and the big sewing project was to make the apron that we had to wear in cooking class. I never did really learn to sew nor have I ever enjoyed—well one year when I was about a freshman or sophomore in high school I made four summer dresses because I wanted some clothes and we didn't have money to buy any, but that's about the extent. I got it all out of my system that one year. So here I was spending my holiday from taking final exams in seventh grade finishing up this apron so I wouldn't flunk sewing, and finally I was making such a mess of it that I sneaked it home and pleaded with my mother to finish it up for me so that I would pass from sewing into cooking.  She did, and I did, and I sneaked it back and probably got a B- on it, but at least it was over and done with.

My mother also collaborated with me on other things, but this was not really in the dishonesty department I think. She was highly respected in our community and beyond, and I used to get a bee in my bonnet every year that I would like to play hooky sometime, so my mother and I made an agreement that once each semester when I really wanted to not go to school that I should tell her that this was the day. I never stayed home just to stay in bed. I'd wait until there was a perfectly beautiful fall day or a perfectly gorgeous spring day and say, "This is the day that I don't want to go to school, I want to go play golf or take a walk in the woods or just ride my bike.  So my mother would telephone the school office and say "Kathryn will not be in school today." She didn't lie, she didn't say I'd broken my leg or had the sniffles, just "she would not be in school" and the assumption at the other end was that I had a perfectly good reason not to be there, and I'd get it all out of my system and that would hold me until the next time.  I've always thought that was a good idea.  

00:52:34

Now I don't know that my kids ever asked to do that or ever did that but I do know that I've always had an attitude that when the world is too much with you, you should be relieved of some of it. I have tried to relieve my kids of excess pressure, encouraging them sometimes when they were in school to drop a course or to somehow lighten whatever, or to be helpful if the kids had one too many things to do to remove one of them and do it for them, or whatever, and I think that that's important at any age.

MA:	Have you done that for yourself throughout life? Do you feel that you have taken that to heart in you own management of your work and your family life and recreation?

KC:	I have. I don't know that I've always used good sense about which things I removed and which ones I retained.  I have a feeling I removed a lot of the fun things such as the theater tickets and golf and going on vacations that may have cost more than I thought I should spend so I didn't go. I certainly have realized as I've gone back to work that there still are 24 hours in a day and 7 days a week and if you're adding something you jolly well better subtract something.  When I was 35 I remember my birthday, we were living on Stanten Island, and I decided I was probably, according to statistics, half way at 35, now the life span is extended a little bit for women, and that for the next 35 years I was going to do a few things my way and immediately decided I would never wear a hat except in the winter to keep myself really warm and that I could have guests for dinner without having to make yeast rolls from scratch or a pie from scratch. There were just a few domestic things I could do without.  It also was sort of an attitude that I had.

MA:	It sounds like you were deleting some of the things perhaps that your mother hadn't deleted.

KC:	I don't know, my mother wasn't such a great baker. A part of her Tom Sawyer bit that I spoke about earlier, it was a great privilege for me to be allowed to make dinner rolls from the time I was 10 or 12 and bake cookies.  To this day I really enjoy making yeast rolls but I don't do it very often and I love to do donuts. My aunt Carrie in Sparta, mother's sister, made donuts for the whole damn town and she lived to be 82 or 83. The last time that I saw her she had a little batch of donut dough, always in her refrigerator, and when anyone stopped by she would say let’s have a cup of coffee and she would knock up a dozen or half a dozen donuts to have fresh with the coffee. I didn't want aunt Carrie's recipe to go to her grave with her so I made her make donuts several times, because she didn't measure anything and didn't know what the measurements were, so she would dump and then I would measure it, so I got her recipe finally written down. Later on I discovered it was quite similar to one in my Meta Gibbons cookbook so that it was alright. I still do donuts once a year or so.

I have a wonderful donut story if you are intersted in the donut story. When we lived on Staten Island and Janet was an infant, she was born in August. On Halloween, that's my favorite time to have homemade donuts, Sara came home from fourth grade the day before Halloween, and announced that she had told her teacher that she would bring donuts for the class for Halloween, and she had forgotten to mention it. That was unusual for Sara to forget to mention something, but I said, "fine." Then I had to figure how do I make, donuts have to be fresh to be good otherwise there's no point in having homemade donuts, I think, so I wanted to make them in the morning so that she could take them hot and fresh to school. But I had a four year-old and a new infant and I didn't want donut grease around with a four year-old especially, so I got up at 4:00, before it was time to feed the baby and before David was around to be in the way. My husband and I had a team, we did donuts as a team.  I would roll out and cut and he would fry, so that we could handle it and chill it. Well you don't need to hear the whole process right now, but we had fresh donuts for Sara to take to school. About the time we were finishing the donuts the baby was waking up and crying and Sara, who usually had good sense --eight years-old-- said "Do you suppose the baby would like a donut?" and, two months old maybe closer to three, instead of saying, "Don't be foolish or are you joking," I said "Oh I wouldn't give her a whole one, maybe just a little round hole," and when I went in a little while later there was this cheerful little baby with donut crumbs all over her crib.  Luckily she didn't choke to death. In any case, the donuts were a hit in school.

I always sent, I didn't make donuts frequently for school, but cookies, every year that my kids were in school.  I was a room mother for whatever grade and sometimes more than 1 kid at a time which didn't involve much, it meant making cookies a time or two or going to a program or something, but they always assumed without asking me that I would want to do it, the kids did, and I did always want to. Even though I was working full-time and doing other things that was one kind of relationship and association that was just assumed.  I had the same assumption with my parents when I was growing up that they would be not only willing but delighted to do anything that had to do with school.

01:00:32

MA:	Did your husband participate in, for example, PTA meetings or PTO?

KC:	He did. In fact my husband and Judge Jim Doyle, both of whom died this year, we both had kids, Annie Doyle and David Clarenbach were in the same room all through Randall School and all through high school. But Jim Doyle and my husband were the two fathers who could always be counted on to be at a school program over at Randall grade school. Sometimes a few other men were there too, but those two inevitably. They would schedule their days to be able to be there and lots of times I would watch Jim Doyle instead of watching the kids on the program because he was so sentimental, such a marvelous person, and he would be tearing, I loved watching him.

When somebody was in senior high, Hank and I were urged to be the co-presidents of West High School PTA.  By that time I was up to my eyeballs in the women's movement and in other things, and I told my husand that I didn't see how I could possibly do it and he said that he would do all of the behind the scenes things that take all the time, the telephoning and setting up of committee meetings, etc., and that I could stand up and give the reports which I didn't mind doing and which he was uncomfortable doing and which was a total reversal from the other co-presidencies where the women would do all the scutwork and the men would stand up and read the reports.  He thought that was only divine justice and he was willing to do it, so we did and it worked out.  We did initiate a couple of good scholarship programs and a few things that were useful.

MA:	You were philosophically of like minds, so that anything you would do you would pretty much be together on?

KC:	Right.

01:02:49

KC:	Lets move back now, we're still following your education. You mentioned that you didn't ever feel that it was new learning in school until you were a junior, but rather, that it was an opportunity for you to show what you learned, which I think speaks to the kind of education that had occurred in your home, but tell me when the change occurred and what that was like.

I suppose my memory is faulty to begin with but I can remember now, not that you're pressing me, but that general science as a freshman and algebra and geometry were new, but they never seemed tough. I thought they were always fun. My senior year in high school when I took physics I had the same science teacher I'd had as a freshman when I took general science. Another classmate of mine, Mary Cornell, and I loved physics, just loved it and I would really work at even the little diagrams that we'd have to diagram the experiment we were doing would be a work of art, at least by my standards and for me to do. But, she and I had other ideas of things we would like to do so we bargained with the teacher, Walter Pribbenow, the physics room was not in use during the 6th period which was a free period for Mary and me, and we asked if we could do extra, not extra credit but extra experiments, things that would occur to us, and he said yes, that we could go in and use that room during 6th period provided that we didn't spend any of that time on the lesson for that day.  He didn't want us to have an added opportunity that the other students didn't have. So we not only agreed to that, but loved the arrangement. He had a chemistry class next door and he would stick his nose in three or four times during the hour because he'd be so excited about whatever it was Mary and I were doing. Anyway, that was something I did that was lots of fun.

My German class was fun. I took two years of Latin and two years of German in high school. At our 50th high school reunion this year somebody had written a little skit and part of it involved this German Club and had a little part written in for me to do so it brings this back to mind.  There were 14 of us in the German class and we stayed the same 14 for two years. We had a marvelous teacher, Alvina Helmke. Very early, maybe the first week or so of our first year in German class, we decided we'd like to have a German Club and could we meet on Fridays. She said well sure, provided that in the four days before that we would do five day's assignments and that no one in the class should fall below a 90 in any of these lessons and that we would spend German Club talking only German. We bought that whole package with enthusiasm and of course what teacher wouldn't be overjoyed, and for two years that's what we did. I was elected president both years of the German Club and immediately memorized some parliamentary procedure in German which had absolutely nothing to do with the class but it would always have the teacher in hysterics. We collected a few dues so that on Fridays someone could run down to the local dairy and bring up treats for us and then sometimes we cooked German meals. Once the German Club conducted a pep rally in the gym and had a schnitzel bank, which was all germane to the basketball team, etc. We did a lot of very inventive things. We made up games in German and anyway, that was another thing that was just kind of fun.

01:07:19

During my senior year in high school I sold tickets in the theater, the movie house which we called the theater.  I did that seven nights a week and two matinees to earn a little money, $4.50 a week for those nine times! In the summer time between my junior and senior year and after my senior year in the daytime I worked in a gift shop and got $7.00 a week for doing that. I put all of that money in the bank and it was available then for when I was in college for spending money.

MA:	As you describe your school experience I'm so taken with what an incredibly cohesive group you were, with a good many teachers that you liked and respected and who were good teachers. Did you have any disruptive elements in your schools?  It's so striking when we look at it in contrast to school today.

KC:	Well, what we thought were disruptions in those days were exemplary behavior today. There was nothing like, oh there were always kids being sent to the principal's office for one little infraction or another.

I did some practice teaching while I was still in high school. My sophomore year in high school in a social studies course we had to select a career and then find an opportunity to do something with it. Well, I wasn't very imaginative and so I selected teaching as a career and I asked around and some of the junior high teachers said I could come in and conduct a class. One of them was a man who was an assistant coach, Orv Kane, in fact I think he lives in Beaver Dam and teaches, he may be retired by now—probably is retired by now, but he taught geography and something else in junior high and he used to come to our house and play pool, or billiards, in our basement, anyway I think he was just overjoyed to have an hour off so he would ask me to come back and teach another geography class. I did the few I had to to fulfill the assignment for my social studies class so I would be pleased when he would invite me back. Then the word got around, well I don't suppose its a secret in a school system that size, and when a teacher would have to leave early for an emergency and be gone for an hour or two, the office would sometimes fish me up from wherever I was and ask if I would take the class, whatever it was, English, history, whatever. I did a little of that, not an awful lot, but I was apparently on-call for the rest of my high school days.

MA:	Do you recall what you thought about it?  Were you initially frightened like a student teacher in college might be now when he or she has reached their senior year and it's finally time to step into the classroom for the first time?

KC:	I don't recall being uneasy about it.

MA:	Public speaking was comfortable for you even then, wasn't it?

KC:	I did a lot of public speaking in school. We had a good forensics program in our school system and in fact I think I started public speaking when I was in the early grades. I would be put on programs to recite poems or whatever and then my mother had me take lessons, elocution lessons. The piano teacher who was also the music teacher in the school gave little, maybe I was her only student I don't know, but I would memorize poems and sometimes some prose, but by the time I was a freshman in high school at age 12 I went out for 
extemporaneous speaking it was called then, it has another title now, but what we had to do was be prepared on about a dozen subjects and then on the day of the contest whoever was in charge would draw a title out of the hat and you would go and prepare or recall or whatever. During that freshman year we had contests between Sparta, Viroqua and Tomah, a three way thing and then a regional in LaCrosse and I won both of those, first place, and went to the state contest in extemporaneous speaking for two years. Then I got a little weary of doing that and I was on the debate team and that took enough of that sort of time for me, so I just did extemporaneous reading which didn't involve that kind of intense preparation or any nervousness about what they were going to draw out of the hat, because it didn't matter, you'd have half an hour to look over the readings. I also went to the state contest in extemporaneous reading and had some interesting debate experiences so that was easy enough for me to do.

MA:	Do you remember how you felt about teaching?  Did you enjoy it?  Did it actually confirm a career choice?

KC:	Absolutely not! I mean I loved doing it because it would get me out of a class and it was fun to do and I did it seriously but I had no intention of becoming a teacher and every year when my dad would line us up, there were always 3 of us in undergraduate years together, he would line us up to write out the check for the tuition and room and board and would ask us what we were studying and he always put the question to me in the same way "Is this the semester that you go into the School of Education?" So I could always honestly answer "no" because I had no intention of, but I didn't see any need to debate it.  When I would tell him I was majoring in political science again he'd say, "Political science, what do you do with political science?" I would hem-and-haw a little bit.

MA:	Was he putting real pressure on you or was this simply his way of communicating at the time of the check?  Did you feel that he would have been happier if you'd have transferred to the School of Education?

KC:	I think he thought I should have an objective, a career objective.

MA:	But he wouldn't have withheld the money?

KC:	No that wasn't related at all.

MA:	It was more rhetorical?

KC:	No. I think he really thought I was preparing to teach or to do something.

MA:	What did you feel you were doing?

KC:	I was learning a lot of things I wanted to learn and also what I heard about the School of Education left me so icy cold and when I would see kids who were taking courses in the School of Education, I thought, "I don't want that," and then I had professors who would make fun of it.  Bill Ebenstein who was one of my favorite polititcal science teachers, used to say "I wonder how Socrates could ever teach, he didn't go to the School of Education."

01:15:57

MA:	I was the valedictorian of my class, so I spoke at the commencement ceremonies and I had the lead in our senior class play. I don't know if I've told you this, but early in my senior year the woman who was going to be directing the senior class play spoke to me very privately and secretly and asked if I would be able to leave my job of selling tickets at the theater long enough to rehearse for the senior class play and to be in it, because if I could then she would select a play that would have a part especially good for me. I kept her little secret and of course told her "Yes, by all means." All year long whenever that thought would occur to me I pictured myself as Katherine Hepburn and I thought "Oh, I just wanted a role like one of those Hepburn things."  When the play finally came, I was so glad I hadn't breathed any of this to a soul because the play she had selected, and my part was of Sophie, an old maid.  It was a dumb play, the kind that lots of senior classes do. It was fun and at our 50th reunion the fellow who played opposite me in the play was there and was reminiscing about it and he told me, 50 years later, that he was so concerned that he had asked me at rehearsal one time whether my parents would be at the play and I said "Of course, and so will my brothers, why?" He said "Don't you think this is a little risque," because in the play I faint at one point and he had to pick me up and tote me someplace. He thought that maybe my parents would be offended.

01:17:59  

End of Second Interview Session/ Start of Third Interview Session (September 29, 1987), Tapes 2-3

01:18:01

MA:	Kay, last week we talked about your high school experience.  After graduation from high school, what next?

KC:	Well, of course, I worked that summer, as I have mentioned, doing my two little mundane jobs and playing golf as often as I could and then enrolled in the fall at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. That was a choice that I made without really examining very many alternatives. I just really wanted to go to Madison.  The year that I was a freshman my next older brother had decided to transfer from LaCrosse where he had had his freshman year, which was then a state college, and to go to the university in Madison. This was 1937 and things were not flush in the Frederick household. My third brother, David, was about to enter his sophomore year in high school and my family thought about this for awhile. My brother Bob was thinking about transferring to Madison. He had had one year there but he was kind of a nomad I think, he had had a year at Carroll College and a year at LaCrosse, he hadn't flunked out, he just simply thought he would like another institution better.  So there was an outside possibility that three of us would be enrolled in Madison and with the fourth coming up soon. My parents made the decision, I rather think it was my mother who made the decision, to move herself and enough furniture to Madison to establish an apartment. My father would stay in Sparta in the big house by himself and conduct his life as usual. I think part of that decision, although it was never explicit at all on my mother's part, was really to get out of Sparta. She had always enjoyed Madison and she had friends here and whenever we had come to Madison or she had come by herself she had always had particularly good times.  So, that's  what we did, rented an apartment at 440 West Dayton Street, the building is still there although neighboring buildings are not any longer there, on the third floor. They even moved my baby grand piano up -- that was some enterprise to watch while they heisted with ropes from the outside of the building. In any case, about the time we moved brother Bob, number one, decided not to come to Madison, so there was just Gordon and me in the university, and David went to what was then called Central High School, the MATC building, part of which has recently been torn down. It was the same building my father went to high school in. It was then called Madison High and was the only high school in town when he was in school. For one semester we lived in the apartment and we all were doing our thing in school but by the end of the semester it just wasn't working out. My father was terribly lonely and I think it was difficult for my mother. I'm sure that just climbing those stairs was more difficult, and she didn't have the access to a car, even though she wasn't driving she could be driven anyplace in Sparta. I don't know what all of the considerations were, but in any case she moved lock, stock and barrel back to Sparta at the end of the first semester. David was very happy to return to his old friends in high school in Sparta although he had been an awfully good sport about his move, and Gordon and I had to find a place to live.  

01:22:27

That's one of the reasons why we each joined a fraternity, I joined the Alpha Chi Omega sorority and he the Kappa Sigma fraternity, even though we were ambivalent about that, but the dormatories were filled and we needed a place to stay and the idea of a room in a rooming house was just abhorrent, I suppose, to both of us.  We had friends in those organizations.

MA:	Why were you ambivalent about joining?

KC:	Because the whole Greek system is a very exclusionary one and discriminatory and sometimes a little bit upstage. I found many wonderful friends in that sorority house, some of whom I'm still friendly with, one came from Washington, D.C., and another from Milwaukee for the three of us to have a little reunion here in town this summer, so we still are in touch. In any case, I lived there then for three and a half years in the sorority house. My senior year I was president of the sorority house and my junior year I'd been corresponding secretary, and in that capacity I not only had access but had to read correspondence with national officers and previous officers of the local chapter, and came across one letter regarding me. Apparently I was being considered the year before to be nominated for the presidency which I didn't know anything about, and some comment in the correspondence was "But we're never sure what she might drag into the house." I was very active in International Club and I chaired the University Peace Federation for four years and was vice president of the YWCA and had many friends who were not traditional Greek and WASPs and so that's what the comment was about.

01:24:26
		
MA:	Do you think in your time there that you politicized your sisters in any respect?

KC:	I'm sure. As a matter of fact there are a few of us who connived among ourselves very consciously. We didn't start out to think of it as politicizing, but the table conversation was so boring and superficial. There were two or three of us who found each other more interesting than the others, who would rush to the dining room so we could sit together. We would save seats for one another simply to have a reasonable conversation. One of them, Ruth Thompson, who is now married, and has been for years, to Boudon Curtis and the two of them have run a couple of rural newspapers down in Darlington. Her brother ran for governor of Wisconsin unsuccessfully but was a state senator for 20 or 30 years, so she came from a very politically alert family and just interested in public affairs. She had a subscription to the Capital Times and, believe it or not, it just wasn't customary for students anywhere that I know of to feel the need to read a daily newspaper. They would read the student newspaper, but to know what was happening in the real world was beyond them, and of course this was before the era of television. On Saturday afternoon I would often sit in the little lounge with a friend and listen to the opera on radio, but there was no television and no addition to daily news or certainly to reading newsapers and magazines. In any case, three or four of us set out to improve the table conversation. We would give it some thought before the meal as to what subject we could raise that would make an interesting kind of discussion and it wasn't long before other people would drift to our table and want to sit with us because they found the conversation more interesting. Before the end of the year, I remember a national officer came to visit or inspect the chapter or whatever, and that was one of her primary comments, that it was the most interesting and alert conversation, she didn't know that it had been carefully nurtured and cultivated. And then women in the sorority did meet all kinds of my friends from International Club from all over the world and instead of being horrified they gradually found this interesting.

01:27:44

MA:	Tell me about your academic life.  Did you know initially what your major would be?

KC:	No, I didn't. I did something I may have done in many other contexts all my life and I think in retrospect it was very foolish. I deliberately avoided courses that had been such a snap for me in high school. I decided not to take speech courses or to even attempt to be on the debate team. These were things I had done and done successfully and now I want to do something different. I didn't take courses such as physics, I think I mentioned previously what fun Mary Cornell and I had had in high school using that extra period, and so I moved into areas that were foreign to me. I had a couple of friends, again in the sorority house, who were majoring in anthropology, and they kept trying to interest me, not in my freshman year but at some point, into taking anthropology because they found it so fascinating. Two of these women made a career in anthropology and have done fascinating things over the years. I enrolled in one anthropology course and the very first reading left me so cold that I transferred out of it right away. Again, that was a mistake. If I had it to do over again that's an area that I would really enjoy, cultural anthropology

MA:	Was Margaret Mead in the news yet at that time or were you aware of her?

KC:	I don't really know, I can't remember. My first memory of reading anything about Margaret Mead was actually during World War II, reading an article called "And Keep Your Powder Dry." Now Margaret Mead had her 80th or 85th birthday ten years ago; we celebrated it at the Houston conference, she was there.  The whole 2,000 delegates stood up and sang Happy Birthday to Margaret Mead and it was lovely. That was not too long before she died. That means that Margaret Mead was 30 some years older than I so she was certainly publishing by the time I was an undergraduate.

MA:	I was just wondering what her influence might have been on female students in the field at that time but perhaps she wasn't well enough known at that time.

KC:	Not to me and not to my circle.

MA:	Now you asked about academic. Well, I chose to study a little more German; I'd had 2 years of German in high school which is the equivalent of 1 year at the University. I had a very exciting experience during my very first semester when a professor of German invited me to have a part in the Christmas play. Apparently the German Club every year did some kind of a Christmas dramatic performance and I was quite excited to be invited.  Later on I found out that most everybody else in the performance and in the organization were graduate students and I was just a freshman. I realized that the man was type-casting; he thought that my pronunciation of German was good, which was one reason, but also the most peculiar Christmas play I’ve ever heard. I was die frau virgin, I was the landlady where the shepherds came and spent the night. The only other woman was the Virgin Mary, of course, and that was not I.  But I was trying to keep the shepherds from getting too drunk at my tavern so they’d still be able to go on and greet the baby Jesus. It was a very peculiar play; it was lots of fun to do.

01:32:08

I probably had more B+s than any undergraduate who ever attended the University. I thought I was a, just assumed I was a good student, but as I told you earlier, I had never taken a final exam until I came to the University, so I had no idea how to prepare for a final exam and I always did my classwork and recited in class and was actually generally doing A work, got A on my papers. But when it came to my final exams, I didn’t do A work, and so I would get these B+s which was a great chagrin to me. Also, I had been all through high school kind of a big frog in a little pond and I came to the University, where there were at the time 10,000 students. And you know my whole town was 3500 people, and I felt very conspicuous. I felt kind of country and overgrown and most of the gals—we called them gals in those days—at the sorority house were not only much better off financially, much better. And their wardrobes and their experiences, some of them had cars, made me feel, again, a little—they didn’t do anything to me or say anything that suggested that I didn’t fit in, but I felt very conspicuous, as though I were not properly dressed.

MA:	How did your parents pay for this? There were two of you then in a fraternity and a sorority.

KC:	Well, I believe that the room and board was $30 a month. That was not much more than dormitory—the cost of living in a dormitory. And that and our tuition, and my dad also insisted that we each have a season ticket to the athletic events and a season ticket to the theater, concerts at the Union Theater, and those things he paid for.  And then, anything else we had to take out of our own earnings and our own savings.  So if I ever wanted a Coke or what else—

01:34:46

End of Tape 2

00:00:03

MA:	Kay, we were talking about your college experience.

KC:	Yes. Well I guess I was pointing out what courses I enrolled in and what I did and why.

MA:	I was wondering if you felt academically inadequate, or less adequate in such a huge institution?

KC:	I encountered new ideas and I had to study for the first time, not only to prepare for exams which I didn't learn to do until about my junior or senior year, but had to really study. I did a lot of my reading of textbooks for example in the student union in the Paul Bunyan Room which was the only room that women were allowed to go into. We couldn't go into the Rathskeller. We could go upstairs into meeting rooms, could and did, but for refreshment.

MA:	Why weren't you allowed in those other rooms?

KC:	Because there was sex based discrimination in the student union. We were at least allowed in the front door.  In earlier days, well before my time, there was a special back door that women had to walk into to get into the building. I do remember being irked that we couldn't go into the great big Rathskeller so that when I would get a refill on my coffee cup, black coffee was 3¢ a cup in those days and second cups were free, that's how I learned to drink coffee, I didn't really like it but it was the cheapest thing to buy and 1 cup and 3¢ worth would last me the whole afternoon. I did a lot of my reading down there and then I'd be ready to go to meetings; I belonged to quite a few organizations.  

00:02:11

KC:	So I don't know that I really felt inadequate, I often found a good student in the class with whom I would study, at least there were a number of classes in which I found that a good thing to do and we would just kind of gravitate to each other, people I only met in the classroom and while there were a few big lecture classes we always then had small discussion groups so that the classroom situation wasn't a formidable one at all, but was rather nice.  I was just thinking of some of the people I studied with.  I don't know if that bears remarking about.  

	I did have an interesting experience in a geography course, a 5 credit geography course which had a lot of tedious ....We had I think two, 2 hour called labs—there were a number of field trips that were terribly exciting in geography. We went to Devil's Lake and looked at glaciated things and some of that was quite interesting but in the laboratory itself we had to sit and draw maps of rainfall and of other such things, really kindergarten activity. It didn't take long before 4 or 5 of us in this geography lab decided to combine forces and each of us would draw one rainfall map and then the others would copy it quickly. We couldn't leave when we were finished, we had to sit there for two hours so then we would sit and talk. Among the people that I talked with were Roland Day who is now a Supreme Court Justice and Charlie, who is an attorney here in town, Jim Hudson who lives in the Milwaukee area who is a very progressive left wing kind of person who taught me more about politics, at least I learned more, sitting in that miserable geography lab visiting with him and it was he who persuaded me to belong to the University Peace Federation, to which I was promptly elected chair or president. We brought Harold Laski from England to address the university student body under the auspices of the Peace Federation. I can remember that was the first time I went to the lion's den, the president of the University, to ask permission to do this and to ask for funding from the University.

MA:	And you were successful?

KC:	Yes. That was the first year that Clarence Addison Dykstra was here as president of the University. We had the meeting when Harold Laski came in the Old Red Gym. It was one of the places big enough to have a meeting of that kind. I can remember my brother Gondy, aka Gordon, was in the audience and he was so—he didn't know I was going to be introducing Harold Laski, we could have been doing a Charlie McCarthy stunt because Harold Laski came barely to my shoulder—anyway, my brother just about died of embarrassment because there I was in the spotlight. Anytime I did anything, at least in those days, kind of public it would just embarrass him, just as it had in 3rd and 4th grade when I would raise my hand too often.  

00:06:07

I'm sure I spent more time in extracurricular activities which in itself were wonderful education experiences for me. Just meeting, not only the kinds of people and kinds of issues—Ed Nestigen was a person who was on the staff of the YMCA at that time, he was from Sparta, and he made it his business apparently every year to tap 4 or 5 freshmen who looked promising in leadership and then to kind of groom us without our knowing his full agenda of course. He would have little meetings and Bob Lampman who was on our faculty and has chaired the Economics Department was one of those and I was one and a fellow named John Bossort who is now an attorney over in LaCrosse, we were three of the little handful whom our class whom Ed—I even can remember now asking him, and that was 50 years ago, how in the world he could read a newspaper as fast as he could because I had never read a daily newspaper as a regular thing, all through my high school years. So it was only when I came here that I began to do that, and I can remember Ed very patiently walking me through a paper and telling me how he would look at a headline and decide it was nothing he wanted to read or read the opening paragraph if he had a little interest and then read the whole thing if it was something else. That's a skill that ought to be taught. I don't know, maybe they teach in it Journalism or English, but it ought to be taught in high school.

MA:	Gerda teaches it in her history class, and it's the first time I've come across it being taught.

KC:	I'm sure that Ed Nestigen was another influence in my concerns.  

00:08:24

KC:	I spent some time in an open housing committee; Madison in those days was far worse than it is now. When Paul Robson came to Madison to perform in the Union Theater in Othello he could not stay in any hotel in Madison.

MA:	Where did he stay?

KC:	He stayed at the Haagen residence, Euta Haagen was in the performance with him and her parents were here, her father was on the faculty, so he had a place to stay, otherwise I suppose some black family in town would have put him up. It's hard to believe, isn't it?

MA:	Did you go to the performance? Tell me about it.

KC:	Indeed I did. I don't know what to tell except that it was just terrific.

MA:	What was the audience's response? Were any black people able to come and could they afford the tickets, for example?

KC:	I have no memory of how many black people were or were not in the audience. They certainly would have been permitted in, there were black students on the campus. I met Hilton Hanna, who has since been a labor leader with the International Brotherhood of Meat Cutters and whatever the total title is, he has moved back to Madison in recent years, but I can remember eyebrows being raised when he and I would take a walk across Bascom Hill, but that was all.  Nobody made any slurring remarks, he was a student in Economics at the time.

MA:	Was it unusual that you, as a woman, were involved in all of these things?  You've mentioned a lot of men who were involved with you, but you haven't mentioned other young women.

There were other women who were active in the Peace Federation and open housing. I don't know how close I was to any of them. Usually the secretary of any of these organizations would be a woman and I would work with her and there were women on the newspaper staff of the Daily Cardinal who covered things and would be in touch with me a lot and with whom I had a lot of contact and relationship. By about my junior year I became quite friendly with a fellow by the name of Jerry Kaiser from New York and in fact we dated fairly steadily for 5 years here in Madison and then when I went to Washington during World War II with the War Production Board, he was also in Washington.  He had some friends, also mostly from New York, his friends were in graduate school—Joe Peckman who a few years ago got an honorary degree from the university and with whom I've stayed in touch, and Ben Stephansky who later became a labor attache to our embassy in Mexico, and some very, very interesting people and quite intellectually active. I spent a lot of time with this crowd.  It wasn't just all of those men and me, those other men had dates and were friends of mine. In a way I suppose I had a kind of compartmentalized undergraduate time of having a lot of good friends at the sorority house and some of us would rush every noon and have a short game of bridge with the woman who was housemother before we had to rush to our 1:30 class so I had very good friends there. Then another gang in the International Club, and then some of this left wing progressive peace and housing kinds of people. They might or might not mingle or know one another, but I didn't feel fragmented at all, it all made sense to me.

00:13:02

I was taking a lot of social studies or social science courses and I might just mention that the reason I chose to major in political science as an undergraduate was that in the course of the junior year students were required to name a major and have "x" number of credits and related credits, etc., and political science had the fewest required courses of any of those subject areas that I found interesting, so I thought why not, then I could take whatever additional things I wanted.  

MA:	That relates to the question I wanted to ask you next. How did you experience the classroom? Gloria Steinem in "Everyday Acts and Outrageous Rebellions" states that college women experience the least discrimination of any group of women.  I wonder if that was the case in your day? Did you find that in college life it's easier to be equal than when you move into the work world, etc.?

KC:	I wasn't conscious of sex based discrimination.

MA:	The faculty I assume were primarily male or isn't that a correct assumption?

KC:	Yes that is a correct assumption. It was particularly true for me; by that I mean that I had very few women instructors at all.  In fact, I had one woman full professor, Helen Clark, in social work. Actually the School of Social Work had not been founded yet, she founded it or was instrumental in getting one started here. But I took social legislation, group work theory and practice, case work theory and practice because I wanted more of what she had to offer. She and I stayed in contact and were friends after I moved away from Madison. She sat on my orals committee for my masters degree and for my Ph.D. and in some ways was kind of a surrogate resident mother for me. I'm sure if at the time I had said that to her she wouldn't have liked it probably very much. She was 25 or so years older than I am. When we moved back to Madison 27 years ago I got in touch with her and she had us over to her house for parties, particularly when her brothers would be in town. Then she moved out to Attic Angels and had a little apartment, that's a residence for elderly people, a very nice one, and then as she got older and couldn't maintain the apartment she moved into their nursing home facility. She died a little over a year ago and I was asked and did speak at her memorial service, which was very nice. In fact in 1980, when I was 60, the Women's Studies program on the campus had a birthday party for me at the Wisconsin Center and Helen Clark came in a wheelchair, the young man who was her driver and attendant brought her, and that was so wonderful for me to have her there and be able to introduce her as the one female professor I had in all my years as an undergraduate and graduate. There were other women professors here, Gladys Borchers in the Speech Department, Helen C. White, for whom the building is named, in the English Department who was an absolutely marvelous, gorgeous woman with the most beautiful posture and she always wore lavendar or purple, every item of clothing I think she had and she just was such a figure as well as a brain of course, and she was once I think maybe both of them in turn were advisors to Mortarboard which was a senior womens honorary society to which I belonged and of which I was president. So I did have opportunities to meet these—another woman in the English Department—so there were maybe half a dozen women professors around, but you could count them on your hand.

MA:	Do you think that you consciously saw them as role models?

KC:	No I don't think so. I know that I enjoyed being with them and I admired them. The Dean of Women at the time, Louise Troxel, was also somebody that I liked spending time with. I guess I never thought about it, it wasn't part of one's vocabulary and maybe of ones—I can't think of ever saying to myself "Gee I want to grow up to be just like that person."

MA:	Were they married women? I ask the question because I'm wondering if a married woman could actually balance a profession with marriage.

KC:	Not any of those people were married. Helen Clark did marry when she was in her 40's a man who was widowed and had 1 daughter who was either finishing high school or starting university, but that marriage only lasted a couple of years and then they were divorced. The other women I named were not married at all.  Louise Troxel did marry an M.D. who was widowed and she was more than in her 40's, maybe in her 50's, and that marriage didn't last—Louise Troxel Greeley. When Dr. Greeley married for the 3rd or 4th time I don't know which it was, 4th I guess, his first wife died then he married her sister, I don't know if she died or they were divorced, then he married Louise Troxel and then they were divorced then he married a younger woman who had been dating his son—I know all this because my friend Jerry Kaiser his brother Phil is married to Hannah Greeley and so I paid special attention to a lot of this stuff.  I know for a long time when Manchesters would send out their monthly bill to Mrs. Greeley they would get each other’s bills mixed up.

MA:	Did his 4th marriage last?

KC:	Yes.

00:20:23

MA:	When you were in the classroom with male professors it sounds as though you felt comfortable in discussion.  Did you in any way feel inferior? You must have been in the minority in the numbers in the classroom as a woman student, or were you?

KC:	There again I don't even remember counting noses or wondering what the ratio was.

MA:	Which means it probably wasn't affecting you one way or the other, then?

00:20:52

MA:	During my first year in graduate school which was the year of Pearl Harbor, by then the draft was on and men were beginning to vanish from the scene or to appear in uniform, then the ratio began to be upset with more females then males.

KC:	The reason I ask you about your discussions, is in graduate school today for example if there is a seminar with 50% men and 50% women there is a tendency for men to dominate the conversation unless the women are quite assertive and able to take control.

	That's true everywhere. It's true at the lunch table where our faculty eat together. We have enough sensitized men now after 3 or 4 years that they will call each other’s attention to the fact that they are interrupting and that they are hogging the conversation so I think we're making a little progress but it’s very slow.

MA:	I'm wondering if you experienced that or if you recall experiencing that as a student?

KC:	I don't recall being uncomfortable about it. Now it's very possible that I just accepted the fact that men talk more than women. On the other hand, I never felt silenced or that I ought not to open my mouth, at least not because I was female. There were times when I didn't know what was going on and then I knew enough not to open my mouth.

MA:	Which is actually a sign of intelligence.

00:22:36

MA:	Let's continue this. You made a decision to major in Political Science ....

KC:	It just gave me more opportunity to take other things. For example what I just mentioned with Helen Clark, the group work theory and practice.

MA:	How long after that time was the School of Social Work started here?

KC:	Not too long. I can't remember the actual date but not too long after that.When I came back here, we moved back here in 1960, in the very early 60's when I was working in Continuing Education for women I called together a little meeting with Dorothy Witte Austin who is a journalist from Milwaukee who has worked for both of the Milwaukee newspapers and who I often refer to as the "Boswell of the Wisconsin women's movement." She covered everything and anything and kept us on our toes by asking me in advance "what's going to be newsworthy at your meeting, because if nothing is I'm not going to bother to come". So then I'd have to think we'd better do something that's newsworthy. Anyway, I gathered together a few people including Helen Clark and Ersel LeMasters who was then head of the School of Social Work and Dorothy Austin—I can't remember who else was there, some other women on the faculty—to talk about the university's discrimination against women faculty and just to ask what their experiences were. Both LeMasters and Helen Clark confirmed that the day Helen Clark bought a house in Madison, which would have been in the 1940's probably, she did not get another raise. Her salary was frozen at $8,000 because the head of the Sociology Department at the time, McCormick or E. A. Ross I've forgotten who, said "she's not going to leave even if she gets a better offer because she's got a house here now, we don't have to pay her any more". That was the way she was treated.  Finally LeMasters managed, many, many years later, to get her salary up a bit but it never amounted to what it should have.

MA:	Was that generally the rule, that the women faculty made less money than the male faculty?

KC:	Oh sure. In fact that was going on in the 1960's when I came here and was doing the continuing education.  That was one of the things we discovered and when the Faculty Women's Association got organized, which I helped to organize, first on the Madison campus and then the following year system-wide that was one of the first things that we were concerned with. The fact that so many departments had no women at all and when they did have they had them in as lecturers or as non-tenured people, and that the salaries at any level were that there was a great growth disparity; that battle isn't over yet.

MA:	I'd like to hear more about that when we get to that time period.  

00:26:32

MA:	So you took social work classes, political science classes, continued with German it sounds like.

KC:	Just for two years. Also a lot of economics, sociology, I don't kmow what else—English, loved English.  Again, Warner Taylor was my—I had to take freshman English, in those days people took a placement test - incoming freshman took a placement test—and were exempt from freshman English, didn't get 3 credits for it just moved right into I just assumed that I would be exempt from freshman English and I was not. It turned out that even though we thought we had a very good high school in Sparta that we were not reading a lot of the more contemporary authors that I learned over the first year or two in just visiting with my friends who had read this, that and the other that I had never even heard of, so I realized that at least in that department my senior year in high school that we had not had the same kind of preparation that a lot of other students had.  I don't regret in the least having had that experience of having had Warner Taylor as my English teacher, a full professor and a marvelous, marvelous person. I thoroughly enjoyed all of the things we read and learned how to kind of analyze. I think I learned as much about how to think about things in a somewhat analytic way from my English classes as I learned anywhere and it all was in a very pleasant and painless way.

MA:	Do you recall favorite authors from that period, anything that particularly stand out as having been extraordinarily meaningful to you?

KC:	No. I remember writing a term paper on Robbie Burns that year which got a lot of wonderful comments and a nice grade. Do you know that in my office I have that little poster that somebody gave me "Of course God made man before he made women, you always make a rough draft before you have a finished product." I've asked people if they know the Robbie Burns poem and so many do not. I think feminists ought to put that on a poster too and I'd be glad to recite all 4 lines to you.

MA:	Please do. I don't know it.

KC:	Auld nature sighs, the lovely dear,
		Her nobelist work she classes, oh,
		Her prentice hand she tried on man
		And then she made the lasses, oh!

KC:	Did you, and this is probably hard to remember, I am wondering how many female authors were included in a literature class in that period.

	Again I have no idea, I didn't pay any attention. This morning I got a brochure in the office of some international thing related to Nicaragua and the first thing I noticed was 5 male speakers, not a single female speaker. That now of course is the first thing I notice, before I even notice what the subject is. But I wasn't conscious of that at the time. I'm sure it wasn't pointed out either. Now we're reading this, or this woman author has a different view.

00:30:40

MA:	While you were an undergraduate did you expect that you would go on for a masters and a Ph.D.?  Was that a given for you?

KC:	Not really, even though my dad used to say that he would see us all through a masters and after that we were on our own. I never have in my life planned ahead. You know that's very pro forma these days with counselors and advisors to women, "Where do you want to be 10 years from now?"				

	We were talking about planning ahead and did I plan ahead for my masters and Ph.D. I think not. It must have been sometime during my senior year that I made a decision to go on the following year for at least one year of graduate work.

MA:	What prompted that?

KC:	I don't know. I don't remember at least. I do know that I applied for and received a scholarship, a cash award from the Political Science Department and that I was invited, I guess I didn't know about housefellow jobs in the dormitories but the Dean of Womens Office asked me if I would like to apply, which I did, and I became what was called a housefellow in Elizabeth Waters dormitory. It was fairly new, I think it was about its second year I believe. I was one of five people in that dorm and each of us had one unit with about 100 undergraduate girls whom we didn't supervise but were just there to help them organize stuff or to be there when they had a problem and wanted to talk about it. I had free room and board at Elizabeth Waters, marvelous food and a private room with a telephone and a view of the lake.  It was just absolutely gorgeous and a $400 cash award from the department. At the end of that year I had $200 left from that $400 and that's what I lived on. I still like to remember that there was a beauty shop in the dormitory and every Monday they had a special: for $1 you could get a shampoo and set and a choice of manicure or eyebrow arch so every Monday I would have a $1 manicure, shampoo and set.

MA:	You didn't have an eyebrow arch?

KC:	No. I didn't want anybody plucking at my hairs.

MA:	How did you like working with the young women? Were there any notable experiences there?

KC:	I'm not sure I was the world's greatest dorm fellow. I was always available if people came in with a problem or just wanted to gab, that was fine with me. I very soon and in short order decided I wasn't going to be available 24 hours of the day for just anyone to come in and gab, I was after all enrolled fulltime in graduate school including a course in statistics which I regarded as one of the worst wastes of time because it took a lot of my time. I would figure out a problem and think I had it perfect and then realize I'd gone off on the wrong track and have to do it over again and have never used the mathematics that is what took all of my time. I invested more time in that course than in all the substantive courses that I took put together. To this day I wonder why, it was one thing to learn about averages and the meaning of statistics when you read them and it's another to work out those silly problems. I decided to post office hours for when I was a housefellow. Nobody else did that but nobody told me I couldn't do it. I thought it was fairer to the students to know when they could expect to find me there rather than to have them running up to my floor and finding I wasn't there, so that's what I did.  I never snooped around, in those days people were supposed to behave in a more decorous fashion.

MA:	What were the rules for the dormitory?  Could boys visit someone's room for example?

KC:	Oh my no. There were parlors or lounges where they could visit at certain hours, only certain hours. Of course women students had hours in those days, 10:30 on weeknights and 12:30 on weekends. You had to be in and were locked in. Boys had no hours on the theory that once the girls were in, the boys would go home. That's the way it was explained.  

00:36:39

There was a separate women's student self government, in those days. Women were also a part of the regular student government but to make some of our own rules that governed females. I was never an active participant or officer in WSGA (Women's Self Governing Association) but one of my very best friends was president. In fact, a couple of them were over the years, trying not only to monitor and encourage adult behavior, mature behavior at least, but also to get some rules modified.

MA:	To change some of the more repressive rules?

KC:	Right. And also to be sure that the women students who lived off campus or in rooming houses had proper accommodations and had some voice in student government and just because you might be isolated, one or two or three in a house someplace shouldn't exclude them from things. There were a lot of good things that were going on.  It was after my time here that the rules were changed so that women could come and go.

MA:	If a young woman were to have gotten pregnant, would she have been able to stay in a dorm and stay in college if she wasn't married, or even if she was married, was that something that would have been acceptable?

	I knew several married women students who were pregnant and there was no problem with that, but I never knew a pregnant unmarried person who stayed on the campus to the point that anyone knew she was pregnant.  Now I don't know what was happening with abortions.  

00:38:47

I do know that one of the first things the housefellows had was a meeting with a woman psychiatrist from the Medical School, Nettie Washburn, and a great gal she was. She tried to give us some insights into what kinds of behavior on the part of students might suggest that they ought to see an expert or a physician or whatever.  She had some very enlightened and progressive views about sexuality.

MA:	Did she talk about birth control or anything like that?

KC:	She did to us and then we were supposed to be able to pass some of this along.  I don't ever remember a student mentioning anything to me about birth control.

MA:	Or abortion?

KC:	No. I do remember when I was in the sorority house of girls being frantic thinking they might be pregnant but I never was privy to any information from anybody about that.

MA:	Did you know or did you ever hear gossip about abortionists and where they might be found or wasn't that information that went through your grapevine?

KC:	No.

00:40:15

MA:	What about violence against women at night on the campus, for example.  Were women afraid of assault as they are today?

KC:	No. We walked anywhere but of course we had to be in at 10:30 or 12:30. But even people in town who were not students who worked at other jobs didn't seem to be worried.

MA:	Busses cost 5¢ in those days. There were not a lot of bus lines but it was adequate to the size of the place and the size of the population.

KC:	How about bicycles, had they emerged yet?

MA:	No. Only a few queer ducks rode bicycles in those days. That was something for kids or something you did for recreation but not a means of transportation.

00:41:23	

End of Interview Session 3/ Start of Fourth Interview Session (October 13, 1987), Tapes 3-4

00:41:26

Start of Interview	

00:41:32

MA:    Kay, we were talking about your time in graduate school. Let's back up to summer before graduate school. I would like to, because that summer I had an experience which was one of a kind for me. I was a camp counselor at a Girl Scout camp in Bear Mountain Park, New York, which is north of New York City, called camp Quidnunc and there are all kinds of camps here in Wisconsin of course but one of my good friends at the university had been there one year as a counselor and was asked were there some people on our campus who might spend a summer so she got in touch with several of us and we decided to do that.  It didn't really pay much in fact, well Girl Scout counseling never does, I doubt that even my train fare was covered and I was there for 12 or 13 weeks, at least it was the entire summer. It was a beautiful, beautiful place and I met a lot of wonderful people. Just by coincidence, in part by coincidence, when we lived on Staten Island and my daughter Sara was a Girl Scout she went to camp Quidnunc and I thought it would be fun for her to go. Actually she was so homesick the whole 2 weeks that she almost died, but in any case she had that experience. That was the summer of 1941 and I remember being rather horrified as I'd go through cities with what now one would think of as the "winds of war" with all of these huge billboards urging people, men particularly, to join the services and of course that was just before Pearl Harbor and the war in Europe had been going on for some time but it came home to me when I saw those, in a way that it hadn't before, we had still been very active on this campus in trying to forestall, rightly or wrongly, U.S. participation in the whole thing.  

MA:	What had you done on the campus? I had chaired the University Peace Federation and we kept bringing speakers here and even though I no longer had a ....I didn't think of myself as an isolationist, but just ways to prevent ....of course we knew we didn't know everything about Hitler but we knew things were pretty bad, and it was worse as each year went by, and the Nazi's took over more and more of Europe. We were more persuaded that our options were closing.

00:44:31

Let me get back to camp Quidnunc. One of the things I remember very well about that summer was that I was transferred after a couple of weeks into the Brownie unit. They had had, those are for the very youngest kids, they had had a counselor who was a kindergarten teacher or something and no fun at all for the campers and so whoever was in charge thought that maybe I would be more fun for the campers. I can remember first walking into this Brownie unit.  I was wearing shorts, which I think possibly makes me look even more long legged than I do otherwise, and when I walked into this group of maybe 30 kids they all backed away and kind of looked and nobody spoke to me and I wasn't going to rush them of course, and finally a couple of them started whispering "you ask her" no "you ask her". Finally one of the braver ones stepped forth and said "We want to know, are you really a giant?" So I acknowledged that I was and we had lots of good times. In a day or two about six or eight of them, they must have planned it in advance, tackled me and I felt just like Gulliver and the Lilliputians because they all piled on and I was rather helpless. But I did have a good time that summer. When we had time off I went in to New York City which was a reasonable bus ride away. I had a boyfriend in fact for a total of five years I guess, my junior and senior years and then he wasn't around during all of my graduate year but came back to Wisconsin from New York City where he lived.  He came to vist me at camp a time or two and then I would go down to New York and visit with some of his family.  When I went to Washington in 1942 he also went to Washington and got a job in one of the war offices so that we saw each other there for two more years.

I had been a Girl Scout when I was a kid and had gone to Scout camp, always loved it, and did as much canoeing, hiking and swimming as possible. I had gone to other kinds of camps, or had done camping I guess is a better way to say it. A group of my best girlfriends in Sparta, when we were in high school, used to rent a cottage at Spring Bank where there was a little spring fed lake and a wooden hanging bridge and a cave and it was fun. We would rent a cottage for a week, ten or twelve of us, no chaperone although there were families living in nearby cottages so we really were probably under surveilance at all times but we had the feeling of being quite on our own. I used to be asked, I think I was probably the youngest member of this group (we probably started this when I was twelve or thirteen and then each summer through my high school years at least) they would ask me to plan the menus for a week for all of us and work out a shopping list of how many cans and how many pounds etc. of this and that we needed. I didn't do it totally alone, I would do it in consultation with others, but I would certainly be the one to estimate what the cost to each one would be. I had apparently done enough shopping with my mother at grocery stores and paid enough attention to what things cost so that I would almost come out on the nose! It was always my assignment, at least I always was the one who did it. When we were staying there I frequently would be the first one up in the morning and would, some of the gals smoked and some of them occasionally had a boyfriend in who would bring a beer or something.  There wasn't a lot of late night carousing but enough to titilate a little bit. I would often be the first one up in the morning and tidy up the dining area and wash cups and glasses and things so they would be ready and sweep the floor which it seemed to me it always needed. Years and years later when I was telling this to someone in the presence of my brother Gondy he looked at me and said "Why do you think they invited you to go along?"  So that gave me pause years later, I hadn't realized that. I have wonderful snapshots of myself floating in an inner tube; I could swim and was a good swimmer, but that was my favorite thing to do, just sit in an inner tube and read or lie in the sun.  That is still my favorite thing to do. I have snapshots from this summer up at Rhinelander, at our cottage, in an inner tube. I still love to do it!

           Was it very common for young women to participate in athletics at that time? I think it must have been because 
           all of my friends did summertime, golf, tennis, swimming and in the winter we would to tobogganing and 
           sometimes skiing although skiing was not the activity that it is now. We only did things that were inexpensive. 
           The week at Spring Bank, probably $5 apiece is about what we pitched in to have all of our meals; I don't know 
            if we even paid rent at the cottage. I think someone we knew must have let us use their cottage for a week. So 
           skiing was without—we just wore our regular boots and just had a strap across the ski.

MA:   Did you have cross country skiing at that time in Wisconsin?

KC:     There may have been, but I didn't ever do it. We would find a golf course with a hill or other things like sledding and tobogganning. We did go on sleigh rides. We'd rent, a church group or sometimes even just a private thing, and we'd call up someone we knew with a sleigh and a team and that was always fun.

MA:   Was that a form of dating also, using these group recreational activities?

KC:     Yes. We had some Friday night parties all through my high school years with boys and girls. A few of the people really came as dates but most of us didn't, but usually we had pretty even numbers of males and females. We took turns hosting these events. My brother just older than I and I were always in this group and half a dozen of his good buddies and half a dozen on mine. I know that when the parties were at our house we usually played games, some that my mother remembered from her youth, spin the bottle, sly winkem or we would play murder. Anyway, it was games and eating and lots of laughs. When some of the other people hosted they sometimes had dancing, dancing was not prohibitied at our house but neither my brother nor I were very good dancers so it wasn't an activity that we tended to sponsor. That was something to do in a small town, especially in the winter; we tended to do this during the school year and it was something to look forward to that was kind of fun too. The clientele may have changed a little bit over the years but it was pretty much a standard group. Another major social event in Sparta in those days was the high school basketball tournament. Every March, and because the gym in the Sparta high school was the best one among the schools that participated in this, we had the tournament in Sparta. Again, this gang of girls, mostly the ones who went to Spring Bank but with some additions and subtractions, would have lunch and dinner at various peoples homes....available for me to host and I was so disappointed and my mother said "Well how about Saturday breakfast?" which wouldn't have occurred to me or to anybody else, so we had Saturday breakfast. After that, every year the other girls counted on the fact that we would have a Saturday breakfast. There was no Saturday morning game that I recall so we went right from breakfast to the lunch party.

MA:    This was a boy's tournament, you played basketball but it wasn't in a league in the same way?

KC:     That's right, only boys were playing the game. I suppose the other unique social event, and this I suppose I did more of after I was out of high school, but when I was home for the summer, Camp McCoy, which I think I may have mentioned already, is near Sparta and the ROTC students from Illinois, Michigan and I don't know where else would spend several weeks at Camp McCoy every summer and sometimes CMTC (I can't remember what that stands for anymore but they were not university based activities) there would be dances out at the camp, highly chaperoned. The chaperones would take us out and then bring us back home. At least once and sometimes twice during the summer there would be a moonlight ride on the Mississippi River, which is just 30 miles from Sparta, in an old paddle boat where there would be a band on board and that was really kind of exciting.  The boat would go up the river not too far but the whole thing would last three or four hours I guess and that was kind of fun. Those were the excitements in Sparta, all kinds of things you make for yourself.  So we did have a social life that extended beyond playing softball in our back yard and going ice skating.

MA:     An active social life actually, and you were always very, very involved in terms of hosting. When you look back on it did everyone kind of host equally or did you, I sense you being in a leadership role in terms of your home because of your family and your home?

KC:      I don't know how much of a leadership role I would indicate but I think we always did probably more than .... I had several friends who were always included who never were permitted by their parents or the size of their house or their economic means or whatever, who never hosted. I had others for whom it would be a state occassion when they did and so I guess, in fact in my head I'm going through a number of these friends and I'm sure we had more events at our house. I always enjoyed them more at my own house to begin with.

MA:     Because you liked the way they were set up?

KC:      I guess so, and what we had to eat. My mother and dad always had fun at our events. Instead of ever saying they were too busy or it was a nuisance they would like to participate. When my brother Bob, who was six years older than I am, was in school at LaCrosse he often would bring a few of his LaCrosse University buddies home for a weekend and we would read and do dramatic performances. We'd use the stair landing as a balcony for certain balcony scenes. My mother used to remember that some of these things where the dead bodies would be strewn on our livingroom floor, but my parents always, either as audience or sometimes as participants, we could .... my mother would play these games with us, not just when we were small children but high school and early college. Everyone liked to have my dad come in because he had such a great sense of humor and also was a wonderful raconteur and if they could get him to tell funeral stories or other things then my friends always enjoyed that.

MA:    Sounds very lively.

KC:     Anyway, those were some of the social event things that I remembered I hadn't talked about.

00:59:59

MA:     It sounds like they were a good training ground for what you were doing at the Girl Scout camp.  Did that kind of social life and activity oriented life prepare you well for what you were doing there?

KC:      I suppose, and the outdoors, that camp was very much semi-primitive.

MA:     What were your tasks? Did you teach swimming or did you have certain groups that you did things with?

KC:      Yes, we were with a unit, two or three counselors with an age group. We did almost everything; I did not do waterfront at camp Quidnunc nor at any other camp now that I think of it. The first year that my husband and I taught at Olivet College, Sara was a year and a half when we went there, that, I already mentioned. I think that the College paid us a salary and a half for two fulltime people, and that I developed four different courses each semesters that I was there because I had students who thought they were majoring in sociology and who until I got there would have the choice of two courses I guess in the whole curriculum. In any case, the school ran out of Money by about March I guess any nobody in town seemed to worry about it. They knew that eventually, maybe the next fall, they would have collected enough from the Congregational Church to pay back salary.  We had no cushion at all and luckily the landlord didn't boot us out, he was accustomed to this little delay and the grocery store let us charge. Hank quickly took a night job down at Battlecreek making Kellogs Rice Krispies or something to bring in a little bit of money. When the end of the year came we didn't know what we were going to do for the summer when the Phy. Ed. teacher at Olivet college informed us that she was the director of a Girl Scout camp, Camp Long Lake I think, but I'm not sure, so she hired all three of us. Hank as handyman and Sara as mascot and me in handicraft. Marian Howgate was the name of this Phy. Ed. teacher; I can remember her name because she was the world's worst bridge player that either of us had. 

01:01:03  

End of Tape 3

00:00:03

Start Tape 4

00:00:07

MA:  Kay continue with the story about the bridge game.

KC:   All I was going to say was that if anybody opens with no honor count and long suit we refer to it as a Marian Howgate special. She was just a terrible bridge player but she was a great camp director and a good faculty person. Anyway, I said "handicraft" that's absolutely the last thing in the world

MA:   You haven't mentioned that in your past.

KC:   No, and for good reason. I could have handled waterfront because I'd had senior lifesaving and canoing and whatever would be required there. I could have done dramatics and music without any credentials, but with a lot of interest and enthusiasm and nature; I had done some nature things with Girl Scout groups elsewhere. But oh no, where they needed someone was in handicraft. I can remember telling her that I am all thumbs and that I have no talents in any of the kinds of things that I know Girl Scouts do and she said "That's perfectly all right.  It's one of the philosophies of Girl Scouting that the leader should not be too far ahead of the troop." I thought, this one won't be!

We had one exciting event that is just now entering my mind, a prowler in the camp one night. Hank and Sara and I had some kind of special accommodations. We were allowed to spend our overnights in the infirmary, which was available in case any of the campers got sick. We very rarely had to use it as an infirmary but it gave us some privacy and the opportunity to be together. Sara had a marvelous time because all the kids liked having this little two year old around. Anyway, one night Marian Howgate came over and routed out Hank to say that there was one or two male prowlers stalking around in the camp. Hank went out with her and I stayed with Sara, who was asleep, but after I had been there for about a half an hour I got a little bit nervous and so I decided to go out and find them and see what was happening. I've always, again for good reason, regarded myself as a physical coward, I just don't want physical danger. I don't do anything that is deliberately dangerous and in fact I suppose I'm not even adventurous because I avoid it. In any case, here I was out by myself in the middle of the night and suddenly came across Hank chasing this prowler. They were kind of going around a bend of some type so I thought "A ha, I'll head him off", so I came in the other direction and he and I bumped point blank.  He gave me a shove and pushed me down but that also slowed him down enough so that Hank was able to catch him.  Hank, I think got a little extra adrenalyn because he saw me get knocked down. Between us we corralled this guy and took him down to the dining hall and called the sheriff. Actually it was more of a prank than a "bad guy". Still, who knew what kind of....and the fact that he wouldn't stop when he was asked to stop to identify himself, and it turned out that he was the son of a woman who was a big sponsor of Girl Scout stuff in that community so the sheriff didn't want to do anything about it and the camp was unwilling to press charges very far. That was one of the interesting kinds of things. Some of the girls had been frightened in the night because they could hear this guy, in fact there were two of them I guess originally, but one got away.

MA:   Did this change your perception of yourself as a somewhat timid person in those kinds of situations? I guess I realized that when I have to do something I will, but I still don't like to.

00:05:10

MA:   When you were talking about the camp we hopped over to World War II for a second. Do you want to take a diversion in that direction or save it for a bit?

KC:   During that first year in graduate school, which started in the fall of 1941, I was at Elizabeth Waters at the time of Pearl Harbor, and I think it was during the second semester of that year, so that it was after Pearl Harbor, but not only were people being drafted, the draft had begun prior to that of course, but people were signing up and any who were not yet drafted knew that they soon would be. I think that at the beginning of the second semester I had another note from the same John Gaus who, years later, was saying, and I wasn't the only one to receive this message, saying no matter what course you have signed up for at this particular hour drop it and come and take this course with Professor Lancelot Houdman from London, who had just arrived on the scene in Madison.  It seems that Lancelot Houdman and his daughter, whose name I can't remember right now, had gone from London I think to Oslow for a weekend back in, would that have been 1939, in any case to give a lecture or two. They had just weekend luggage and were going to go right back home and that was the time that the Nazi's occupied Norway, came in in a blitz without any forewarning, and old Houdman had to get out. He got to the United Sates by having crossed Europe and Asia and finally, because there was just no way and it wasn't safe to get back across the English Cannel, I don't know how he stayed alive financially, whether he was paid for giving lectures whatever, but in any case he finally arrived in San Francisco and then was trying to find a way to earn his keep and someone at Wisconsin found out that he was there and imported him here. His daughter was housed at Elizabeth Waters and Houdman was given a room at the Union, there were a few hotel rooms at the Memorial Union. It really was exciting to sit in his course. He taught sort of the History of Science, but it was under the auspices of the Political Sciences Department. He had published two books that the bookstore managed to get copies of, Mathematics for the Millions and Science for the Citizen. He had this wonderful way in both his lectures and in his writing to integrate history and historic developments and political developments with the scientific advances of the time. I don't even know what his course was called, but I do know that Elizabeth Brandice Rauschenbush who died a year or two ago was a professor in our Economics Department, the only woman in the department for a hundred years, she sat in on the class and was there in the front row, so a number of faculty people and towns people also came for this opportunity to hear this very unusual person.  I think he was perhaps a little bored giving the course, I don't know that he was, but I think he gave every paper that was turned in a "B" and I don't know that he even bothered to read them. Nevertheless, his lectures were absolutely fascinating. It was almost as much fun for me to watch Elizabeth Brandice because she would lean forward and be so excited about things. That was another of the highlights.

MA:   What did you take away from that?  Was it intellectually significant, the blending of the fields in the way that you just described?

KC:   I would think it must have been, but I was never all that introspective or self conscious about "now what effect is this having on me."  In fact I probably still don't.

MA:   And so you wrote papers for him because you were in the class. Did you always receive "Bs" also?

KC:    I think so. Also, he wasn't accustomed to the American exam business. I don't know that we wrote papers but we did write exams, six week, mid semester, final. I think that in the British universities they had none of that nonsense.  They expected students to read and absorb.

MA:   And it wasn't necessary to grade them because they were all so motivated.

KC:    Yes. Anyway, that was another of the highlights.

00:11:29

KC:    It was not long then that the university males began to drain away and there were military, I think that they were Waves, women in the Navy as well as Navy men who were stationed .... then sometime during that same year on the campus and were taking work.  Somebody got the brilliant idea it would advance the war effort if classes started at 7:00 in the morning instead of at 8:00 in the morning.  Whoever had that bright idea probably is now in Congress having other bright ideas!  So we would get up, pitch dark, and it was dark enough in Wisconsin at 8:00 in the morning, but to be in the classroom by 7:00.  I never could figure out how that scared Adolph Hitler, but we did it.

MA:   I was asking you about Jeannette Rankin's vote against our entry into World War II.  Did you hear anything about this among your friends?

KC:   No, I don't recall any conversation, though I'm sure there was note of it in the newspapers but I don't remember that it was a cause for ....

MA:  What was your response to the War? Do you remember how you felt when Pearl Harbor was bombed? You mentioned that you were certain women would be drafted, that was one thing that you thought would happen which of course didn't happen.

KC:   I'm sure I shared all the horror that .... and of course the inevitablity, just as in a Greek tragedy, had been apparent and I kept wishing it away up until the moment of Pearl Harbor. Of course I knew I had three brothers who would be doing what they did and all sorts of other people and of course we were just in the right generation. That was true of everybody we knew, the whole dormitory of course was filled with people who had friends, relatives, etc. There was a sense of getting with it then too .... I think that there was still a lot of the detail of the atrocities of the Nazis, were either not reported or not believed and people thought that this was the same kind of propaganda that accompanies war.  It took really a long time, there was almost an anger with the Nazis and their arrogance and their taking over rather than, at least in my case, I had not ingested the numbers, the horrors of the concentration camps and the deaths.  That took time, a lot of time.

MA:   You were not receiving the information either in the newspapers. Is that correct?

KC:   Yes, that's right. I did go to a couple of performances, one possibly in New York that previous summer, and one in Washington which were sponsored by some of the Jewish organizations to try to tell the people what actually was happening. I can remember being totally horrified when the Japanese were interned on the west coast.  Then to win the war was the important thing and to do whatever one could do. I never felt any kind of deprivation because of ration cards. I would be very annoyed when I would be home in Sparta and see some of the friends of my parents, my parents were very circumspect also about ration cards, and how did it possibly hurt anybody to go without a little bit of butter or a little bit of meat and yet they had friends who would cheat or hord. This was very hard to take, to see some people doing that when others were contributing so much.  

00:17:04

I believe I started to say that I had taken a Federal Civil Service exam, I guess it was for the professional service. These were things that were available and were given on college campuses all over the country. Then I got a telegram, as did thousands of other people I'm sure, saying "come to Washington and start your work" so I did just that.

MA:   Did you have your masters degree at that time?

KC:     Yes, I already had my master's degree. My brother Gondy and I both got them simultaneously at a June graduation ceremony. He also took a civil service exam and in fact I think he got a higher grade on his than I did on mine.

MA:   That must have pleased him.

KC:     Yes, it did and it didn't displease me. He never really accepted the fact that he had as much ability as he did have, so it was good. However, he went into the military instead of a job in Washington.

MA:   Did he have the option for the job in Washington?

KC:     No, I think he was drafted.  He took the exam and got his grade and when was drafted. So I went to Washington. I got in touch first with a friend of mine who had preceded me there by a year, Lois Warfield, a person I still see. I made reference to her earlier, she was one of the people who had been president of Women's Self Government Association. Her grandmother was Jesse Jack Hooper who in that picture is the calendar person over on the right. She was Carrie Chapman Catt's right hand. She ran against Bob LaFollette for the U.S. Senate back in the 1920's. In any case, Lois and Lois' mother were always good friends mine. I moved in with her and I made a third female in this one room apartment, not one bedroom but one room apartment. In fact, on weekends my brother and sometimes a friends would come and somehow we managed to make full use of the floor space. I didn't intend to stay permanently with Lois and she didn't intend for me, nor did I do so. Another friend, Carla War, who was a UW graduate, and I did room together for most of the two years that I was there. We moved about every other month because the only housing we could ever find were sublets. Somebody would be leaving for a limited time and wanted somebody there who would take care of it and pay the rent but then get out when they returned.  

MA:   How difficult.

KC:     It was difficult but I got to know a lot of Washington because we lived in so many parts. There still were trollies in Washington at that time, trollies and busses.

MA:   Were you living in the heart of Washington, D.C., and not out in Maryland like everyone lives today?

KC:    Right in town. Anyway, the job I thought I went to get wasn't a job at all, it was a fishing license. This was happening to hundreds of college graduates who got their telegrams saying "come to Washington."

MA:    In reality you didn't have a job?

KC:      No; I had to go from agency to another. I went to this one office because this friend said another Wisconsin graduate is in this office. Dave Levine interviewed me and it sounded kind of interesting and he said he'd let me know. It all seemed kind of vague so I went to other offices and asked around and as I was relaying this conversation to a friend they said "it sounds to me like Dave Levine was offering you a job" and I said "it didn't seem that way to me" so I finally got up my nerve to call him back "Yes, when are you going to report to work" said he.

MA:     You didn't know you'd been hired?

KC:     No, I didn't, but I was, and I stayed in that same office even though the office was moved to a couple of different buildings a couple of times. First we were in a temporary building, temporary from World War I, a little wooden kind of shack and then finally into a railroad retirement building which was air conditioned. Not all of Washington buildings were air conditioned in those days.

MA:    And it was summer wasn't it?

KC:    Yes. It was summer when we started at least.

MA:    What did you do specifically in your job?

KC:      It was a very interesting job, the Office of Policies and Procedures for the War Production Board. It was the function of that particular office to design procedures and processes for controlling materials that were used in war production that were in short supply, and having to know enough about the industry to know at what stage do you control the raw material, do you control the parts at this stage of production or something else and how to do it with the least red tape and the least burden on the industry, so they don't have to send in a report every day, and do we allocate a certain amount to each manufacturer and then they don't have to apply for specific applications for each thing. It meant finding out and, of course, the War Production Board as a great many of the war agencies, were filled with what were called "dollar a year men" and I imagine they were all men too; there might have been a female among them, but these were people on loan to the government from their industry and the government paid them $1 a year and the rest of their salary was picked up by the industry, and Washington was filled with just such people. Most of the industry or commodity divisions in the War Production Board were staffed with these people with expertise in what it was all about. We had to do the writing of these procedures and then making sure the industry followed these procedures. Had to be instructed by these people. I was hired experimentally as a young and totally inexperienced worker and another woman was hired, she had preceded me in the office, an older woman, she was about 35 I think and had years of government experience, but hadn't been in that particular, well no one had been in that line of work because it was a new line of work. Anyway, they wanted to see how well women would be received by these industry types who assumed that any female was a secretary and was there to take dictation and not to be telling them what to do etc. The two of us were obviously successful as an experiment because by the time I left that office it was about 50% female. In fact, it wasn't very long before these men would call up the head of our office and say "Send one of your girls over."  It was never "women" of course, but nevertheless they liked doing business with those of us who didn't pretend to know anything more than we did know, but were fast learners and knew what questions to ask, and then were absolutely dedicated to keeping the red tape to a minimum and doing a job quickly and well.

MA:   What I hear you saying then is that they were skeptical about having women but because you did your job well there was a fair amount of acceptance.

KC:    Yes, I would say a lot.

00:26:00

MA:    Did you have any negative experiences at all in terms of the male/female ratio?

KC:    I had obvious skepticism initially, and as I would have to go to a different office with different people it would sometimes happen and then we'd work out arrangements on our own staff, of sometimes going two by two and I'd go with some man or if there were people in my office who knew certain things better than I did, we had a lot of teamwork in the office, I don't recall the kind of competition for brownie points or whatever.  We hadn't been there very long, maybe six months or so, it was the practice for everyone in the building to go across the street to a coffee shop in the middle of the morning and the middle of the afternoon. It wasn't too many months before the word came down from the head of the War Production Board, "No more leaving the premises to go get coffee."  The alternative, of course, was to make coffee in our own office so we approached the boss and said "How about a coffee pot and cups?" and he said "No, he didn't want any mess and he didn't want people taking the time" and we said "Come on now, we can write procedures for every industry in the country, we certainly can write a procedure for making coffee and keeping it neat and tidy." "Ok, write the procedure and I'll see if I approve it."  A few of us wrote the procedure, bought a coffee pot and had everybody bring their own mug and then we worked out a schedule with absolutely no sexism and no classism. Every person took his or her turn being responsible for brewing the coffee and washing the coffee pot. Each person had to keep his or her own cup the way they wanted it, clean or dirty, we didn't care.

MA:   What a breakthrough!

KC:   Yes and nobody raised a hackle about taking a turn. One of the men who had actually been a Latin scholar before he'd been, Prince but I can't remember his first name, from the South, very gentle, a real scholar, it was a motley outfit because there was no specific preparation for doing that.  The ability to write was helpful, the ability to absorb new information, to be well organized, but very difficult I would think to know from an interview what kind of a person was going to be successful and what kind wasn't. Apparently on some occasion when it was his turn for KP he encountered a cockroach because there was a sudden amendment to the procedure to be sure on the canned milk to put a cover and a rubber band on it.

MA:   The cockroach was in the milk?

KC:    I don't know if it was in it or if he thought there was a possibility that it could happen.  

00:29:44

MA:  We made a lot of good friends.  We used to carpool, I finally lived in one place for a few months where I could latch onto a carpool and get a ride.

KC:   One of the men in our office, I just think of him now, from Gloversville, New York, his name will have to come to me, came to Washington and volunteered.  He was a little older, too old to be drafted into the military.  He was so homesick for his wife and daughter and unable to get back too often from Washington, that was an expensive trip, so I can remember the time he said he'd "give anything for a good cheese blintz" and I said "Well, describe it to me and come on over and I'll fix one."  I had never eaten a cheese blintz and had never even heard of one but he described it and I did fairly well in my .... (Saul Sakheim was his name) who had wonderful stories always.  He told stories.  When he left and went back to Gloversville, while I was still in Washington, we had a farewell party for him.

00:31:15  

End of Tape 4, Side 1

00:31:35  

Start of Tape 4, Side 2

MA:    You were talking about your friend Saul.

KC:       I think maybe that was all I was going to say about Saul Sakhiem.  

00:32:00

MA:   There was a lot of great congeniality in the office. I suppose in a way that's part of what kept -- we weren't on the fighting front, we were sending things.  I sent a box as often as I was permitted to to my brothers who were overseas.  Everybody had someone they were writing to or sending things to and we had maps around because we would read about where the Germans were and where we were losing everything in the Pacific.  You know, you had to be nice to the people you were with and be sympathetic and do some things.

KC:   There was rent control and price control in Washington in those days, enough to make a good socialist out of anybody. Well I don't need to give my lecture on socialism, but it made it possible for us to eat a decent meal.  I started work at the same income range there that everybody in my category did, $2,000 a year and after a six months or whatever the probationary period was it jumped to $2,600. I think that as I decided to leave Washington and come back to graduate school after I had been there for two years, I was about to receive $3,600 a year. Out of that salary I was able to buy war bonds, $25 war bonds, quite often.

MA:   You received the same salary as the men then, there wasn't any discrimination within your unit?

KC:    Thats right. Also, incidentally, the man who's name I mentioned, Herman Director, who was the director of the office by coincidence, I ran into him in Washington a few years ago. I was in Washington for a meeting of some kind and one of the old timers knew I was there, had read it in the paper or something, and told me how to get in touch with Director. I went to see him in his private consultancy, I can't remember what he was doing now—or what he was doing just a few years ago, but he couldn't wait to take me around and introduce me to his entire staff so that I would see that he had an Asian, and American Indian, a Black, male and female, handicapped and .... it was a matter of principle with him and he just wanted me to know. He had been that kind of a person all along. I was, I think, in a way very kind of lucky to be in an office that I was, but I met people throughout that war experience, war time experience, in Washington who were just terrific people. They were there to do, from whatever vantage point, what they could do.

MA:   It doesn't sound to me like you had any kind of a special sense of, "as a woman it's my job to do thus or so," but as a person that you felt fairly united with the men.

KC:   Yes, and then my housemate or roommate Carla Waller, who had been an economics major, was in a different, not in the War Production Board, but whatever the economic office was (I can't remember the exact title now) and she had the same experience there that I was having.  In fact, there were many, many women, bright women, in Washington.  Of course, even the whole "New Deal" had opened doors to women and of course the war experience began opening doors to minority people, men and women, in ways that they hadn't been in before

MA:   I wanted to ask you about that. How did Washington, D.C., look during that time in terms of black/white housing; we know today we go to Washington, D.C., and it is a primarily black community and the whites have escaped to the suburbs of Maryland.

KC:   That was not the case at the time. There were still many places within the city where blacks could not get housing. The city was predominantly white at that time. Within the government agencies there were increasing numbers of black people. They tended to be delivering the mail and service kinds of jobs.

MA:   Any black female secretaries?

KC:   A few, and a few receptionists, but not very many.

00:37:47

MA:  The women that you worked with in the War Production Board and your friend in the economic section were primarily or completely college educated women then?

KC:   Yes.  I met a great many women through other friends who were graduates of some of the Ivy League womens colleges.  There were social gatherings lots of times of Wisconsin people, University of Wisconsin people.  It's a joke, and continues to be a joke among my children, that there was a dance at which a Miss Big Ten was, each of the Big Ten, the midwestern institutions, put one female up as a candidate.  It is interesting to me that it had nothing to do with swimming suits and exactly what one looked like, because having a masters degree was worth points -- it was better than having just a plain BA.  I don't know who the judges were and I don't know what the qualifications were, but a couple of my colleagues from my graduating class asked me to take part in this competition which I did as a joke, and then I got the prize.

MA:   And you won Miss Big Ten -- that's wonderful!

KC:   Yes. Some years later I gave my ribbon which announced this great victory to a friend of my mother's that she used to play bridge with and visit with, a woman who lived up the street who is actually one of the homeliest people I have ever known. I just loved her and her husband; they had no children. I don't know what the occasion was when I felt that I wanted to give Hattie some kind of an award or a prize and I thought that this was perfect, Miss Big Ten.

MA:   Did she appreciate it?

KC:   Yes, she loved it.

00:40:18

MA:   You worked with the War Production Board for one year.

KC:   Two years. During that time, sort of by the end of that time, in the first place I was deciding to terminate this five year relationship.

MA:   Why was that?

KC:   I had very mixed feelings. I realized that I didn't think he would be good husband material. He was a fascinating person and lots of fun and witty and someone with a great zest for life, but someone with no sense of direction and no kind of follow-through. He had enrolled in law school and had not done much with it and we were both kind of off and on. He came from a fairly Orthodox Jewish family. I used to think at the time that if his own sense of direction had not been so in question I don't think the religious difference would have been a huge factor, but in combination. That I think was one of the reasons I left Washington before the war was over. It looked at that point that we were actually winning but nevertheless what's to win. I saw a bumper sticker today that said "War doesn't decide who's right, it only decides who's left."

MA:    Right, and your brother was killed in the war?

KC:    Yes and the other two....I don't think the war experience did either one of them any good.

00:42:23

MA:   However, I also was very aware over the passage of those two years of how very little I knew about political science or about the things and about how casually I had gone to college. While I had learned an awful lot, I had really majored in extracurricular activities and had filled in with going to classes on the side. I had a real, I suppose to call it a hunger is a bit too dramatic, but a real desire to almost be a scholar, to sit in the library and read things carefully that I had heard about and never gotten around to. I sent applications to a few institutions to see about not just admission to graduate school but scholarship support. Because those were what one of my professors called "the years of the locusts" with very few people wanting to go to graduate school, I was accepted and offered scholarships at almost every place that I applied. I made the decision, and I might not do the same things now that I did then, but I made the decision to come to Wisconsin where I was familiar. I knew which professors to avoid and which courses to avoid and which ones to take and I figured I could do the most expedient kind of polishing off a degree under those circumstances. I did have fellowships both years. I came back to Madison in 1944 and began a Ph.D. program in the fall and then went to school around the calendar for two years, summer included.

KC:    How long altogether did it take you to complete your Ph.D., from the masters to the completion of the Ph.D.?

MA:   I had two years in Washington not in school and two calendar years here on this campus.

KC:   Then you were done with your dissertation at the end of two calendar years?

KC:   Right. Well, who knows how great it was but...

00:45:01

MA:   But you went with a new commitment. How did you find the experience? I understand what you were saying about really wanting to learn at a deeper level than you had prior to that.

KC:    I certainly had the easiest, the smoothest kind of going to graduate school imaginable. At first I looked around for a place to live here in Madison and visited a couple of sort of one room things that were just dreary.  Somehow word got around, because this was a lovely at least it was a small town then, and a woman that I knew only very casually, who was an instructor in the Ph. Ed. Department, she and her twin sister were two of the most glamorous undergraduate women in the  Kapa Kapa Gama House, so I thought maybe I would be out of my class again but anyway, her husband was in the military and so she needed someone to share the rent and share the space and invited me to. My share of the rent, I don't know if it covered utilities or not, was $30 per month. I had a departmental scholarship so I didn't have to pay tuition. My father sent me the $30 a month for my housing and I had no commitments -- no job to do, no work, no family and if I wanted to I could either walk to the campus from University Avenue or take a nickle bus. Anyway, the living arrangement turned out to be just wonderful. I had know Cease as a very proper, mannerly, attractive, person and I couldn't believe that anybody was that polite and sweet all the time, I thought that was her company manner, but she was that way if we were doing the laundry, cleaning on Saturday, fixing morning coffee and she always looked, even when she was dressed to do the laundry in dungarees, she would have a scarf here or there and just always looked great.  It was a real pleasure. She for example, the buildings across University Avenue which are there now were not there back in 1944 and 45 so that we could look out from the apartment window and see cattle grazing on the university field or corn growing, so she had this plan that we would set the morning alarm 15 minutes ahead of what we would need to and whoever's job it was to do breakfast that day, the other one would shower first and we had this great schedule that worked out and 15 minutes before we needed to leave the house we would sit in the living room with a second cup of coffee, maybe we would talk to each other and maybe we wouldn't but we would just sit and relax and look out the window, maybe think about what we were going to do that day. It was just sort of a meditative time and we started every day that way. It's a wonderful thing to do.

MA:   How delightful. Do you ever see her or did you ever run into her later?

KC:   Yes, she and her husband live here in town. I had a lovely note from her when Hank died. I get Christmas notes and we see each other once in awhile. She has done some teaching for our University Extension office over the years and has taught at College Week for Women on how to relax.

00:49:20

MA:   In your Ph.D. program, do you recall what the ratio was of women to men?

KC:    No, but there were two or three women. There were not a lot of men because it was still the war years. Of course that's where I met Hank when he came back from his military service. His brother was teaching on the campus in political science so he came just to visit his brother. He never did remember the first time we met and I remembered it very vividly. I don't know what impression I had but I could remember meeting him in South Hall which is where political science was in those days, it's now in North Hall. He was in his military uniform  and with his brother and his brother stopped to introduce us. Hank had absolutely no memory of that. It was before he even had decided to come to Wisconsin.

MA:   And you don't recall what you thought at the time?

KC:    No, but I did remember meeting him.

MA:   When did you meet him again?

KC:   He came the second semester of my second year as a graduate student in political science. So he also had space in South Hall as I did. Bill Evenstein was one of my favorite professors, in fact, Bill and Ruth (his wife) used to invite this friend of mine and me over when I was still an undergraduate. We'd have an evening of charades or some other so we were always good friends. In fact, I had meet Bill Evenstein when I was a freshman and went to an International Club event of some kind. He was just freshly on the campus as a faculty member, but as a young unmarried faculty person, so I've known him a long, long time. When Hank arrived in January 1946, to do graduate work at Wisconsin Bill Evenstein said "why don't you go down the hall and talk to Kaye Frederick and she'll give you information, help, etc." He stopped in at the office of the other female who was in graduate school. I don't know what their conversation was, all I was that I heard him as he left, he just walked out of her office and said "thank you Miss Frederick" so he thought he had been talking to the person he was sent to talk with which he had not. I guess she straightened that out.

We had a couple of dates in the cold weather including a toboggan party which several of my roommates or my landlady, however one refers to such a person, and Elizabeth Bardwell and some other old friends arranged this toboggan party and I invited Hank to come along. Some other man from the Econ Department apparently thought he was my date, and so did the other gals who were doing a little matchmaking. All evening, it was 18 below zero and I thought only a fool would think of going tobogganing in that weather, but I think it was these matchmakers who were encouraging the evening more than anybody else, so we did and then came back to the apartment where Cease and I lived and had pineapple upside down cake which Cease had baked and coffee and had a good time.

MA:   Did you end up having a date with Hank rather than the man in the Econ Department?

KC:   Yes. In fact at one point Hank had borrowed his brothers car at the toboggan place and I can still remember Elizabeth Bardwell saying "Oh Henry, Kay looks so cold I think you better take her down to the car." I told my kids he did acquiesce and do that and gave me a blanket to keep me warm.

00:54:05

MA:  Were there any women teachers in your Political Science Ph.D. program?

KC:   No. Helen Clark in Sociology again was the only woman and there was Elizabeth Brandise in Economics but I didn't have work with her.  I had no female instruction at all during those two years.

MA:  While you were going through the Ph.D. program did you have a sense of what you would do with the degree?  Did you have a goal in terms of the work you wanted to do when you were finished?

KC:    I was a teaching assistant the first year. I didn't do a lot of teaching or instructing but I think the closer I got to the degree the more I thought I'd like to teach at a university. So, in 1946, I went to the Political Science Meeting that year, one of the few times I ever went because I knew that was the slave market. I was then invited to Bryn Mawr for an interview and was offered a job at Bryn Mawr and also was offered a job at Purdue and had to make a decision between those two. I think I told you before on tape that a midwester coeducational institution was more comfortable for me. Maybe now I would opt for Bryn Mawr. Also, Hank was trying to go to Columbia and both he and Bill Evenstein were plunking for Bryn Mawr because it would be so close to New York and I thought "well I don't want those people telling me where I should take a job" so I disregarded all of that advice, or rejected it, I didn't disregard it.

MA:   Did you have sense of yourself as a woman in the way that we do today while you were in the Ph.D. program?  By that, I mean were you aware of female role models in political science, the fact that you were a minority in the department, that there were no female professors, that really you were unique to be receiving a Ph.D. as a female at that time in history. Did any of that ever cross your mind?

KC:   I was aware of how few women were around but it didn't seem particularly remarkable to me that I was doing what I wanted to do.

MA:  Because it was a continuation of a long line of you doing that.

KC:   Yes. But I did write my Ph.D. thesis on "Anti-Democratic Ideas and Tendencies in American Politics" without word one on sexism or the suffrage movement or any of the rest.

MA:  So you had not come into an awareness about that at that time, but you certainly had, about injustice generally.

KC:   Right.

00:57:44

MA:   How did you like doing your Ph.D. thesis?  What kind of a process was that for you and did you really learn from it?

KC:   Well, I think I did. I enjoyed writing. I had done, in addition to the theoretical aspect of the thesis which actually the first three chapters were about, an exploration of the meaning of liberty, equality and the public good I guess those were the three. I also examined the really native fascist movement of the time and subscribed to a lot of ultra right wing, really fascist stuff, and went to rallies incognito and actually heard Gerald L.K. Smith and Father Couglin and some of those. It was my thesis that if fascism as such would ever come to this country it would come not riding on a white horse and with all the bluster, but through the accepted institutions that exist in our society. I guess I would still maintain that and that we have come awful close to right wing, especially if we look now at how many poor people and homeless people and hungry people in this country and what Justice Brennan calls the "cruel disparities" in our society.  Then the limitations and the creeping limitations on civil rights and violations of token government, lots of pretty horrendous things.

MA:   Were you able to use your dissertation in any way? Was it published or were you able to disseminate this information beyond the department?

KC:    I never tried to and I never did.

MA:   When you attended the rallies did you ever see women participating?

KC:   Oh yes! Very reminiscent of the fundamentalists right now. The .... the right to life, those who are attacking abortion clinics, and the women who stoned the integration busses in Detroit (at a later time then when I wrote this). Anyone who ever maintains that women have a monopoly on the virtues and are not subject to violence and some of the other things need to take a second look at the right wing. The difference is less in gender than it is in political.

MA:   If you had to make a generalization about social class what would that be? Was there a particular social class that was involved in the neofacist movement?

KC:    I don't know. I'd have to think about that.

MA:    I was thinking about Nazi Germany and the groups that fascism initially attracted there.

KC:   Which were, of course, middle class but funded by the big industrialists. Whenever I read about our military budgets in this country right now I wish some of that would be published in terms of not what the government is spending to build certain things that are obsolete before they're built anyway, but who is receiving the billions of dollars, who benefits. Once in awhile a good progressive publication will indicate who is getting what in terms of income.

MA:   Well, we've reached the end of your Ph.D. program.

KC:    That's a good time to stop.

01:02:54	

End of interview session 4/ Fifth Interview Session (October 20, 1987), Tape 5

00:00:11

MA:   Kay, lets talk about receiving your Ph.D. in political science. When did that occur?

KC:   Well actually I never went through any graduation ceremony to receive the Ph.D. I did receive it in August of 1946. I was kind of sorry to miss that because, perhaps they still do it this way but in those days a Ph.D. candidate got to be accompanied by her or his academic advisor and major professor and walk across the platform together, which would have been sort of fun to do, but I didn't have time. That was the summer, which I think I have mentioned to you; I wrote my thesis in short order and probably got into bad habits then, bad habits that I've continued for 41 years since, and that is doing a rough draft of something and then turning it in. I may read it over for spelling or grammatical errors but very little total rewriting; I'm very much in favor of rewriting but I just don't do it myself. In any case, I worked very steadily from spring until close to August writing the thesis and having it typed. I used to tell some of my friends that I had to get married because Hank typed the rough draft of my thesis. I then turned it over to a more professional typist for the final typing but he typed it for me. I did then and always have since, do my writing with a pencil on a yellow pad of paper; I can hardly write on a white pad of paper. I hand wrote things, I did know how to type. I typed my previous papers all through my university work. When I got to New York City a couple of years later I actually lied, they asked me if I knew how to type at the Ethical Society after they hired me and I knew then that either they'd hire a secretary for me or they wouldn't, depending on whether I could type so I thought it was worth that deception.

MA:   Did it work?

KC:   No. But now I'll never be able to run for president because someone will dredge that up or listen to this tape and know that I lied to the Ethical Society, of all places. In any case, that's the summer my favorite major professor, John Gaus, was off in California for the summer teaching there when I finished my thesis so when he got back he left this little note in my box, I had an office in South Hall and a mail box. "My dear Miss Frederick, I understand in my absence you have completed your dissertation, passed your final orals, have accepted a teaching position at Purdue and are engaged to be married.  You must have had a busy summer!" signed John Gaus. I loved that note and I did have a busy summer.  

00:03:47

Hank and I were married in Sparta on September 5th and we honeymooned at the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri. Missouri is his home stamping ground. Then I went to Purdue in West Lafayette, Indiana, and he went to Columbia in New York to enroll in graduate work there. Our wedding was great, it was in our living room in Sparta and my father performed the ceremony as he had performed thousands. Actually by the time he died, according to his own records, he had performed over 3,000 marriages and he thought his batting average was wonderful, he thought none but certainly very few marriages disintegrated. He always stood the happy couple in front of our fireplace with the same stale joke so they wouldn't get cold feet. He performed the ceremony and one of my brothers played the piano and the other one sang. We had just a couple of friends and then a little reception at the hotel then afterwards. That was sort of to placate my mother who thought, well my father too, that we should provide an opportunity for some of their many friends and ours to say congratulations.  My older brother had been married only a few weeks before that in Ohio where the bride lived.  My father refused to perform the service for either of my brothers when they were married, saying that the bride's pastor should do that and the bride should have the....so on those grounds I prevailed, I didn't give him any choice and so it was just very nice. My father I think was a little bit, well it was an unusual experience for him to perform the ceremony for his own offspring, and I had chided him in advance that I didn't want any prolonged business here and he said "oh no, it takes seven minutes" and so when he pronounced us man and wife with a final benediction instead of kissing the bride or congratulating anybody he just pulled out his watch and said "seven minutes on the button" which was his termination. I remember the night before the wedding, my father obviously wanted to give me some good fatherly advice but he didn't quite know what to say or maybe it wasn't even advice, he just wanted to have a final conversation. He was in his study and I was starting to go upstairs to retire when he called me down and said he wanted to talk. He kind of hemmed and hawed and finally he said "Now remember, always sleep with your window open a little bit even if it's cold, you need a little fresh air and keep your bowels open."

MA:   What do you think the significance of that was?

KC:    I don't know, but such was his advice.

MA:   How did you feel, did you have any questions about getting married?  Were you concerned that it might in some way cramp your style?

KC:   I didn't think about style cramping but I must say I was not euphoric. I wasn't forced into this marriage but I think I was kind of dragging my feet a little bit about the notion of marriage. I don't know that I ever sat down with somebody as one can in this day and age and say, "What about the institution of marriage, is it a form of slavery, is it empowering?" Neither one of my daughters was married at a very early age; Sara was 32 and that marriage is ending, and Janet was almost 30 when she was married.

MA:   How old were you?

KC:    Twenty-five, a child bride of 25!  Of course that was older than the average age in those days. 

MA:    Did you and Hank talk about marriage expectations, your career, his carrer?

KC:   There were a lot of just assumptions and givens and I was, after all, almost completed with my Ph.D. when I met Hank and spent our courtship months writing my thesis and handing over chunks of it for him to type so there was no question in either of our minds that I would be doing something with that.  I went to the annual meeting of the Political Science Association, I can't remember if it was in Washington or Philadelphia, doesn't really matter where it was, but—

00:09:13

—that’s where I met the person from Purdue who offered me the job.  I also met somebody from Bryn Mawr who asked me and they did have me come there for an interview and offered me a position at Bryn Mawr also.

MA:   Why did you chose Purdue over Bryn Mawr?

KC:   Because I thought I would be more comfortable in a midwestern coeducational institution than in an Ivy League, private women's college.

MA:   Even though you would have been closer to Hank?

KC:   Yes. I thought he and Bill Evenstein, another of my professors, were selling Bryn Mawr on those grounds and I just didn't want to be pressured I guess. In any case, I did go to Purdue and had enough of a lonely few early weeks there until I knew anyone, to help me be sympathetic to people who are new in a community and lonely, haven't made their circle of friends or whatever. In subsequent moves over the years I have kind of enjoyed coming to a new community where nobody knows me because then they don't prevail upon me to do things right off the bat.  It's almost as good an excuse as being pregnant when you don't want to have to say yes to everything. I felt very much alone at first at Purdue. I think partly because I was renting a room with a couple of old ladies who were very, very nice, and I had a private entrance and my own bathroom so that it wasn't as though I had moved in with these older women, but I never had had to live in such a living situation and I suppose there isn't a lot of room for expansion when you have one room with your bed and coffee pot and books. It wasn't very long before the other faculty people began to take me under their wing and I had someone to eat lunch with then and dinner and really wound up having an awfully good time and enjoyed my teaching a lot.  

00:11:56

I had a few good students and a lot of terrible students, especially male athletes who were....This was right after World War II so that the GI Bill was bringing lots of folks, many of whom were older than I was, which was never a problem for me at least, and I don't think it was for the students either. I remember several very attractive young women who were among my very best students, in fact they took, I only taught two courses, American Government and International Relations, but they made it their business to take both of these courses.  The would always arrive even before I did into the classroom so they could grab their favorite front pew seats.  At the end of the semester, after the grades were in, they were very circumspect about this, they invited me to have lunch with them and then told me why they were always there so early in the morning. They had wagers with each other of which jewelry I would be wearing that day. I do have a supply of junk jewelry that could warm the cockles of any rummage sale or fund raiser.

MA:   That was how you perked yourself up each day?

KC:   I think that was part of my daily decision for myself, which pin and earrings would look best with whatever I was wearing.

MA:   What was the ratio at Purdue at that time of male to female students? Since you mentioned the GI Bill, the male students must have increased dramatically.

KC:    Yes, and furthermore the Purdue campus of the University of Indiana was the Engineering and Agriculture campus. In those days those were almost totally male preserves. The liberal studies or liberal science whatever they called it, was really just a minor part of the whole campus. They also had home economics so there were women faculty largely there. The numbers of political scientists, economists, historians and people in literature and the arts were not numerous and in fact we became a very congenial group and we would often have a separate lunch table in the faculty dining room where interlopers didn't sneak in.

MA:   What was the percentage of students in liberal arts and men to women?

KC:    It was very small. I would think almost numbered in the hundreds of students who were there with a special interest in the liberal arts. The Bloomington campus, I don't know if that is the setting for the main campus of the University of Indiana. Now Purdue had a good football team and a good basketball team and those were some of the students who thought they could sleep through a course.

MA:   How many women would you have in your courses?

KC:    Maybe a fourth might be.

MA:   How did they perform in contrast to the males? You mentioned the two very good women students who sat in the front.

KC:   I don't remember any real duds among the female students as I do among the males. My memory is a little blurred about that one year at Purdue. I enjoyed the Purdue experience and the teaching so much that when I announced to them at the end of the year that I wouldn't be coming back that they pleaded with me and even offered Hank a job on the faculty if I would stay but we decided not to.

MA:   Why?

KC:    I think we were tired of this commuting marriage.

MA:   But even if Hank were to come?

KC:   Well he had a course of study set out at Columbia and had several years to go in fact he stayed there for four years, either four or three I'd have to count again. During the spring of that year Hank was making arrangements in consultation with me for a European trip. I had never been to Europe; he had of course during the war. It seemed so remote to me, the possibility of really and truly getting to Europe that I could not quite comprehend that we were going to do that.  We did. We went with a study tour from Columbia University of faculty and graduate students. We left the U.S. by boat, of course, in June and didn't get back until September. We visited nine countries in all and had wonderful opportunities to meet with political leaders, journalists and academics.  Had entree to institutions and individuals we never would have except with a group of that kind. We were offered, then, the opportunity to lead a similar tour the following year, but we decided we had other things we would rather do. That might have been a mistake also but at the time we thought that was what we did or did not want to do.

MA:   Sound as though it was your second honeymoon.

It was. In fact we invested our life savings, our joint life savings, in that trip.  Which I have never regretted and I kind of encouraged my kids to live it up a little. I haven't, again, done that very well over my lifetime. I think I've mentioned before that that was part of the advice my mother frequently gave, "If you wait till you can afford to do it, you won't do it," and it's absolutely right. I hope I've never raised an eyebrow when my kids squandered money on a trip or something that they just very much wanted to do.

00:18:46

When we came back from the trip, the European trip, we knew that we'd be living in New York to be near Columbia and that I would look for work of some kind. I didn't even go to an educational institution to think about teaching, and I don't know why I hadn't made some prior arrangements the previous spring, but I hadn't.

MA:   It is curious since you were so enamored with your teaching experience.

KC:    I suppose that by the time we got back school had already started of course.

MA:   That's true. Your preparation time was actually spent in Europe.

KC:   And application time also. I guess I found out from Columbia University that there was housing out at what had been Camp Shanks during and probably before the war, a military camp with barracks which was on the Jersey side of the Hudson River near Nyack, New York. The housing there, at $27 a month, was available only for married student veterans so we got one of those apartments. They were in what I've often described as not very converted army barracks. They sort of put a piece of cardboard or two or three of those in one long barracks.

MA:   So you could hear your neighbors quite clearly?

KC:   Yes. I suppose that kept hostilities at a minimum with everyone knowing that whatever they said or did could be held against them.

MA:   So I did look around and found this job with the Ethical Society, with their encampment for citizenship. We had car pools from Camp Shanks because most of the students there were enrolled at Columbia, at least the car pools went to Columbia. So I was able to join a car pool and then I would take a subway from Columbia.  Eventually we bought a car; we paid $100. It was a model A Ford and we literally bought it from an old lady, she wasn't so old, I keep saying old lady but none of them were probably as old as I am now, but from an older woman who had only driven it to the bakery where she worked and home again and I guess to church on Sunday. It was in beautiful condition, but of course looked almost like an antique car even then, It had "spark" and "gas" on the steering wheel, you probably don't even know what those things are about.

MA:   I've only read about it.

KC:   We didn't have to crank it though. I guess the opportunity to crank that car was built in, but we didn't have to.  We had one of the snowiest, longest winters, so far at least, one of the winters that we were there and this Model A with its narrow tires and built up high could skim along on top of the snow and ice when more modern cars would be stuck and churning and having a terrible time. We often were called to the rescue to transport people.

MA:   Would you actually drive to work, then?

KC:    No, I still carpooled. Although on the one occasion when I did drive that car into town some very dear friends, and they are still very dear friends, Bob and Irene Bland, who lived on the opposite side of the Hudson River in Westchester County near Amoch, New York, and in fact Hank earned a little money to supplement the $90 a month after I stopped working by working with Bob Bland building houses. The Blands built their own house with their own hands, beautiful, modern sort of Frank Lloyd Wright style, with a hugh beautiful fireplace.  While they were building it they lived in a tent. We stayed with them a few times and watched the progress in the building of that house.

When Sara was a baby and Irene and Bob had a baby Allison, Irene and I decided we would have a night in the town and the men could babysit. So she and Bob and Allison came over to Shanks Village and then Irene and I piled into this old Model A and drove into Manhattan, both of us feeling that we were really dressed to the 9's.  I was in a yellow pique dress. I still remember, I don't know if I made it or it was certainly a home style, and Irene was in something probably comparable. We both thought we looked alright to be in the city. We drove down Riverside Drive and people kept staring at us, at the car, they obviously couldn't see our costumes yet. I got a little further down and all of a sudden a cop, I wasn't on Riverside Drive anymore, I had turned somewhere else, halted not only us but all traffic, walked over to the car and said "Lady, this is a one way street and you are going the wrong way!" We looked like such hicks from the backwoods driving this old Model A Ford, that instead of giving us a ticket or reprimanding us he just guided us with all the comfort and care in the world and helped us get turned around and go back the correct way with the traffic.  That was the only occasion when I drove in Manhattan.

MA:    Shades of your father.

KC:    Oh dear! Even onto the seventh generation.

MA:   Life in Shanks Village was an interesting experience. We stayed there from 1947, the fall of 47, until the fall of 1950, three years.
  
00:25:37

MA:   Even though you only worked at the Ethical Society for one year?

KC:   Yes, in fact slightly less than one year. In the fall of 1948, Sara was born in January of 1949 in the fall of 1948 both Hank and I were employed by the Henry Wallace campaign for the presidency, a third party candidate.  Hank worked on the other side of the Hudson, we continued to live in Shanks Village, but his campaigning was done over there, not in Westchester but in some of the more working class neighborhoods and I had assignments to do campaigning and hold meetings and distribute literature on the side of the Hudson on which we lived. I would go up to Poughkeepsie, not too far into Upstate New York, but stayed overnight frequently with sympathetic political people. I once stayed at the mental hospital, the head physician and his wife were active in this campaign so they put me up. The woman asked me to come out to the kitchen while she was preparing supper and she was making chopped liver and I said I had a great recipe for chopped liver.  Saul Sakheim, who I mentioned to you in a previous interview from Gloversville, New York, the one for whom I made the cheese blintzes when I didn't know what they were supposed to taste like, had given me a cookbook from his wife's congregation, the Gloversville Hostess I think it was called, where individual people had autographed their own favorite recipes. It was from that cookbook that I learned to make chopped liver, which I didn't do very often but which was always very good. This woman, it wasn't at Poughkeepsie I don't know where the mental hospital was, said she was fixing chopped liver and I said "Oh I have a wonderful recipe for that in the Gloversville Hostess" and she reached over and handed me her cookbook which was the Gloversvill Hostess. I thought what a small world when we had the same cookbook.

MA:   What inspired you to work for Henry Wallace; what was it about him?

KC:   I think all of his stands on issues. I'm hard-put every two years, not just every four years, when the democrats sound so much like the republicans, the old tweedledee and tweedledum. I think the only thing that keeps me ever from always voting for a certain party is that I know it's kind of a wasted vote.

MA:   But you must not have believed it was wasted with Henry Wallace. There must have been hope.

KC:   Well there was not hope of his being elected but there was hope of a sufficient turn out and sufficient campaign to influence some of the policies. I think that is the primary hope of third parties in the United States.

MA:   Like with Jesse Jackson today?

KC:   Right. In any case, it was sort of a fun thing to do. I was sort of burgeoning with child and driving, I had the Model A Ford during this campaign, and I think there were people who thought I wasn't really for real.  I stayed a lot overnight with a farm family, the Rice's, who had an apple farm and who also thought that nobody had eaten breakfast until he or she had at least three eggs plus whatever else was going.  They would load the front seat of the car up with apples so there I would be, chugging along eating apples and throwing apple cores out of the window in this old Model A Ford and quite pregnant.

       Then we went to some great rallies in Madison Square Garden for Henry Wallace.

MA:  At that time did he have any particular stand on women's issues?

KC:    I don't remember any on women's issues. I do remember one of his brochures on race and I don't remember race being a predominant issue in any other candidate for president for that year. This one that said "Ten Extra Years" was the heading on that brochure and that a white child had ten extra years. Then it pointed out all the other ways in which Blacks in this country were disadvantaged.

MA:   Did he have much of a Black following?

KC:    He had some, I don't know but I am sure there are some who know.

MA:   How about the other people you worked with in the campaign, were you all liberal democrats, socialists, communists?

KC:   All of the above. In fact the campaign kept being smeared, of course, by poeple who didn't like it by saying it was communist dominated and entirely red, etc. There were some notable and outspoken communists who were working very hard for Wallace and for his campaign.

00:31:36

MA:   I thought of something else just now that was related to that, oh I know what it is. We had a very exciting campaign in Shanks Village, not for Henry Wallace but for the right to vote. Have I mentioned that to you before?

KC:   No, you haven't.

MA:   I don't know how it began or who knew that we were not being permitted to vote, or even to register to vote.  I think we were in Orange County in New York and I believe that this was a decision of the County Board or whatever. In Shanks Village, as you can imagine among married college veterans, there were some very able and very bright people. There were a couple of attorneys, in fact one of them we visited several years later, Milt Carroll, and there were a lot of politically active people. The decision came down, maybe at an earlier local election, that not a single resident of Shanks Village was going to be permited to register to vote, much less to vote. We wanted to appeal this to whatever authorities were in charge.

KC:   What was the reason?

MA:   The reason was that as students this was not our permanent address and if we wanted to vote, in my case in Sparta where my parents lived and in Hank's case in Jefferson City, Missouri where his parents lived, then we could vote by absentee ballot. But that as students, I think that it was just generally maintained and maybe even by law, that students who lived in a dormitory could not vote from that residence. In fact, in those days one had to have a year's residence in a state in order to vote in the presidential election. Hank and I were disqualified from voting in the presidential election, we must have been able to vote in 1948—sure, because we had been there for a year, but in 1952 and 1956 we were disenfranchised because we had moved into a new state in less than a year, so it was a great joy to us in 1960 when we moved to Madison, Wisconsin, to discover that the Wisconsin voting laws had been amended to permit people to vote in the presidential election with just 30 days of residence on the assumption that people have access to information about presidential candidates wherever they lived and a years residence wasn't going to improve their understanding of candidates.

Back to Shanks Village. Hank and I were part of a little group there that planned and strategized and worked with Milt and some of the others to do something about changing that either law or practice as the case might be. We got the word out to everybody by doing leaflets and distributing them that the time to register to vote in was such-and-such a time and the place to do it was wherever it was. We had to organize, the local politicos were fearful that this would be a radical vote and if they allowed us to vote it would be curtains for them or whatever, so we organized lines to bring food and drink. The politicos at registration time locked the door and took a two or three hour lunch break and did everything they could to harrass and discourage us, well not everything they could, they didn't sic dogs on us or whatever, and then took forever to register one person. We were sort of prepared for that and expected it and as you can imagine in that population every female was either pregnant or had a small child or both so that it was terribly inconvenient, but we wanted everyone to do it, so we had folks warming bottles for babies and carrying them and bringing lunch.

KC:   So you were just lining up to register inspite of the inconvenience.

MA:   We knew that unless we had registered to vote that if we won the right to vote we wouldn't be able to anyway because we had failed to register, so this voting registration took place even before we had won the victory of being allowed to vote in the election. I do remember one night when we were sound asleep, it was midnight I'm sure, when someone was pounding on the door of our little apartment and went to the door and it was one of these fellows and they were going to drive up to Albany because they'd had a court appearance or something the next morning, so Hank quickly threw on his clothes and got in the car. It reminded me very much of a Paul Revere kind of thing because it was exciting and risky. Anyway, we finally did win the right to vote. That had repercussions not just in New York state but in a lot of other states when we made the point that we were adults and that this was our domicile and we had no other home and the fact that we were students meant nothing and there should not be a disqualification for casting a ballot.

MA:   Wonderful example of grassroots organization and the impact it can have.

KC:    It was exciting!

MA:   I don't remember much else about Shanks Village except that it was a very tedious, the sameness of, everyone there was of the same age category and doing the same job and had lived through the same experiences. Once in awhile somebody's mother would come to visit and it was such a joy to see a gray head or a slower pace. I think I would feel the same way if I ever lived in a retirement home. I think I would miss the generations or at least the variety or diversity.

MA:   Is Shanks Village still there?  Is it still student housing?

KC:   No, but a lot of the people who were there as students stayed permanently in the community, built homes elsewhere. That's when we visited Milt Carroll, I've forgotten exactly when it was, but the landscape was entirely different.

00:39:05

MA:   You were talking about the Henry Wallace campaign. What happened with it? How did it all come out for you and for him? Did it affect any other parts of your life that you were working in that campaign? I'm referring to the idea that some people thought it was a radical campaign, and in fact it was for the time.

KC:   I don't know in what ways it might have affected me.

MA:   It didn't affect your job, for example, at the Ethical Society.

KC:   I did that after I left the Ethical Society; I wouldn't have had the time because I did that pretty much full time.

MA:   So you worked a little under a year at the Ethical Society and then worked for how long on the Wallace campaign?

KC:    Until the election in November, probably six weeks or so. It might have been even longer than that.

MA:   When you look back on that, are there skills that you see yourself using today that you used then, that you perhaps were not aware of, but the beginning of your organizational skills?

KC:    I had developed a lot of organizational skills of a different sort while I was in college, while I was in school before and all through high school. I have always I guess been an organizational kind of person. I had never done that kind of political campaigning.

MA:   The door to door kind of work?

KC:   I didn't even do as much door to door as I did organizing a meeting in a community, but going into strange communities and meeting with people I didn't know. I found that there was a great deal of comradary and of support and of trust among the people who were active radicals I guess. That's been an experience that I've enjoyed many times over the years.

MA:   What were women's roles within the organization? I'm thinking of Sara Evans' book "Personal Politics and Women's Role Within the Civil Rights Movement". Were you on equal footing with the men?

KC:   Oh I was! In fact I probably had more responsibility and I don't know if authority is even the correct word in the territory where I was serving.

MA:   So you certainly weren't relegated to typewriter and coffee pot.

KC:   Nor were a lot of the other women and there were many women, well there weren't many of either men or women, but I can think of two or three or four women right now who were doing as much brain work and position development as the men were.

MA:   Then it wasn't stated, it wasn't as though you had to come into the campaign and make this an issue it was just a given.

00:42:38

       What did you do after the Wallace campaign?

KC:   I gave birth to Sara in January. My mother came to visit for Thanksgiving I remember, and it was wonderful to have her there and see her. One day we went into Nyack, I probably had a doctor's appointment, so we rode in in-style in the Model A. I can remember walking down the street and we walked in front of a candy store and I had been so faithful to this diet of eating all these healthy things and nothing that wasn't on the list, and I stood in front of the candy store and didn't even realize that tears were streaming down my cheeks and my mother couldn't believe it!  She said "Well, for heaven’s sake, let’s go in and get some candy!," and I said it wasn't on my diet and she said "So what!" But just think of it, I didn't even realize 

MA:   You had so internalized the discipline

KC:    Yes, but I didn't realize I was weeping over want of, like a small child, so I had a small piece of candy.

MA:   I gained an enormous amount of weight. When I went into the hospital to deliver Sara I remember this wonderful old French doctor, who looked like Dr. DeFoe who delivered, or at least the actor who played Dr. DeFoe in the movie about the quintuplets, and I had asked if he thought I should be in Nyack around the due date instead of coming all the way from Shanks Village in the old car, and he said no he thought that shake, rattle cruise would be very healthy so I didn't worry about that.  But I weighed 180 pounds when I went into the hospital to deliver.

MA:   What was your normal weight?

KC:    I weighed 140 when I came out of the hospital and she only weighed a little over six pounds so the rest was fluid.  My normal weight is 130. Within two months I was down to 116. I made lists, which I have always done and probably always will do, but I thought I had to do everything everyday when that baby was brand new. I'd make out a week's schedule and think I should do it in one day and when I didn't and wasn't able to cross everything off that would be a frustration. So the truth was that I didn't eat properly and didn't sleep properly and when the baby was maybe six weeks or two months old it finally dawned on both Hank and me that we'd better stop being night persons because we'd be resentful at 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning when this happy little baby would start waking up and we'd be grumpy, and we thought maybe if we went to bed at night we could be cheerful when she's cheerful so we began to change.

00:46:14

MA:   What was it like giving birth at this time in history? We know that childbirth practices have changed considerably. Did you have a good relationship with your doctor? What was your experience in the hospital?

KC:    It was different even from my next two babies. But I started to say, that about two weeks before Sara was born the enormity of what was ahead suddenly just came to me and I realized that for the rest of my days, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I would have an obligation. I think if I could have reversed things at that moment I would have done so; it was a terrible realization!  

MA:   Yes, I had a good relationship with my doctor, it was no first name kind of thing, but I respected him and he was very easy to talk with and ask questions of.  He treated the pregnancy as a matter of course. In fact, he would never have done, I had each of my children in a different city, state and obviously with a different physician attending. When I was pregnant with Janet, eight years later, I went to a doctor who was referred to me by my cousin on Staten Island.  I walked in and he wondered why I was there and I said "I think I'm probably pregnant." "How old are you?" I said "I'm 36." "Well I suppose I've had worse." That was my introductory conversation; I suppose I should have walked out and not returned.  However, the old French doctor was not like that but he was a big believer in a long recuperative period in the hospital. Sara was born in January and one of the nurses came in a few days later and said "Oh, your still here.  Who's your doctor?"  I said "Dr.              " "You'll be lucky to be out by Easter!" said she.  

KC:   How long were you in the hospital?

MA:   Eight or nine days. He thought it was important in the long run that even though it was standard in that time, maybe four or five days was fairly standard, he was also very critical that the hospital wasn't as neat and tidy as he—he was accustomed to Catholic hospitals where the nuns didn't let dust accumulate anyplace. I didn't mind having eight or nine days of rest.

KC:   There is something to be said for that.

MA:   I never was hustled out in two or three days or less. David was born in Missouri and I'd had several quite serious miscarriages between Sara and David's arrival so I'd been going to the University people in St. Louis to find out what to do about avoiding miscarriages. David was probably one of the most wanted children who has ever arrived on this planet. He couldn't wait to be born, he arrived at four and a half pounds with about two hours of notice, well that isn't the delivery you're interested in but I will talk about it anyway.

KC:    That's fine. We'll deal with all of the deliveries at once, a comparative look.

MA:   The doctor who delivered David, I went to the hospital right from the dinner table and was hustled right in to the delivery room without any prep or anything. Had a whole class of male students. He said "Do you mind if we watch this delivery?" What I thought was "What if I do mind," but what I said was "I'm a teacher myself, so go ahead." Then it took awhile for that baby to emerge so it was kind of luck that the doctor was teaching his students and he said "There, you can see the head but the chin is obviously getting in the way." And I thought, "Why the hell didn't he tell me that," so I just did a little push and out he came. The doctor sent the nurse back three times to weigh David again because he was so perfectly formed that the doctor couldn't believe he only weighed four and a half pounds, but he was just tiny.

KC:    So he didn't need to be put in an incubator?

MA:   No he wasn't and they let me take him home. I had to hold him in my hands because I'm long armed and he would have fallen through!  He had all kinds of little things wrong with him, but Sara didn't.  

00:52:24

KC:    Sara was a fun, very cheerful child. My dad came to visit her when she was ten weeks I think and I have this lovely picture of them smiling at each other. Sara did everything rather early; well all of my kids crawled when they were about five months old.  Again, I have photographic evidence in case people think my memory has slipped. I never could bare to put kids in an enclosure. I borrowed a playpen once for Sara to put out in the yard and she was so unhappy in it that one time that I never used it again. I had neighbors in Shanks Village who actually had cages, a crib with a lid on it, for kids even when they were able to stand. I just thought it felt like an animal to me. Anyway, I didn't entrap my kids. I'd put a sheet on the floor and let them lie there and roll as much as they wanted to so they had mobility and learned mobility and I thought kind of were happy under those circumstances.

MA:   Did you want three children?

KC:   We actually didn't plan on Janet but as soon as I knew I was pregnant I wasn't unhappy. In the first place, Hank and I were each a third child in our own families and I figured that this one would be either male or female and in either case it would help me to break down any stereotypes—because Sara did something that must be what girls do and because David did something that must be what boys do—and that this one would then, which in fact she did, I don't know what stereotypes I had, I know that Sara was saying real words by the time she was eight months old and was doing a lot of things at a very early age, so I might have presumed that girls were this or that. Janet is my tallest child. In fact David was nearly four when Janet was born but by the time Janet was two people thought they were twins. They were just about the same size and the two of them had great times together.

00:55:02

MA:   How did you combine, during the time that you had three small children were you continuing to do community work or teaching or anything?

KC:   When Sara was a year and a half Hank and I found these jobs at Olivet College in Michigan, that was in the fall of 1950, and so we went with Sara.  That's the community from which we went to Camp Longlake that I did talk about, and we were there for two years on the faculty.  

MA:   So you were teaching when she was a baby?

KC:   When she was a year and a half.  I didn't do anything for pay from the time she was born until she was a year and a half when we went to Michigan.

MA:   What was your adjustment like?  You mentioned that two or three weeks before she was born that you were wishing you could reconsider this entire thing.  Once she was born and the reality hit, what was it like for you?

KC:   I was so overly attentive that that was why I lost weight. My mother and dad gave us as a gift a washing machine so every day I'd go outside and hang up diapers.

MA:   You were approaching childrearing like you approached everything else in your life, with total commitment!

KC:   Yes and then some. In fact I think that's the kind of mother I have probably been. I don't know that I have, these are not evaluations that I should make, my kids should be asked what kind of a mother. My feeling is that I did not overly, that I didn't smother and that they had a lot of leeway. I know that they had a lot of respect from their father and from me and we never ignored a question or a comment and they certainly were allowed to disagree.

MA:   How did you find, personally, fitting all those pieces together? The difficulty that we read about and talk about of trying to be a professional woman, a political woman, a mother, a wife. 

KC:   I suppose I didn't do many of those things as well as I would have done them if I had had fewer things on my schedule. I remember Betty Friedan's comment twenty years ago that we don't know what women might have achieved if they had had equality.

00:57:50

MA:  If there had been really good daycare that you could have taken the kids to?

KC:    Actually all three of my kids had preschool experience. We moved from Olivet, Michigan, via a summer in California, to St. Louis and by that time Sara was three and a half and she needed the experience of being with other children. She had had some in Olivet at the household where we had asked if they would consider taking another, they had a little girl of their own so at least there were the two of them, and the woman there, Esther Wilkes, would often arrange for other kids to come in and play too, so it wasn't an isolated child just with her own parents. We enrolled her in a nursery school in St. Louis. In fact one of the first things we did when we got to St. Louis, this was held out as a peace offering to Sara in order to move from Michigan, that we would get her a library card when we got to St. Louis.

MA:   At three and a half?

KC:   Yes. So we hotfooted it to the St. Louis County library which was right near where we lived and went in to go through the rigamarole of getting library cards for all of us. The librarian introduced us to the books of Laura Ingalls Wilder and this was thirty some years ago. They had, in the county library, little replicas, little dolls, of the Ingalls family, of pa with his bow and his fiddle, and they had a bookmobile named the Laura Ingalls Wilder Bookmobile. All of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books had not been written yet and she was still living on a farm in Missouri. We tried after we had read a couple of the books, and when my mother came she just loved them and ultimately bought the entire eight or however many there are for each of her three families of grandchildren, and loved reading them outloud.

MA:   You mentioned earlier that you thought she loved those books because it reminded her of her own life.

KC:   Yes, that's right and of much of her own experiences. So that's what we did when we got to St. Louis. I don't know how I got onto this subject.

MA:   I was asking you how you balanced everything and we were talking about childcare.  

KC:   Oh, I see and that Sara did go to nursery school and David on Staten Island also went to Wagner College which had a nursery school where they had student teachers learning what they were doing.

MA:   Being in a university community it sounds like you had more options perhaps for alternatives for the children.

KC:   Yes, although only the one David went to on Staten Island was associated with a college. When we were here in Madison Janet went to the Unitarian Society nursery facility. There were not a lot of options available, just as there weren't these other places where we lived. 

MA:   Did you feel guilty when you would send them away?

KC:   Not that I can remember, except that it was an expenditure that sounded probably out of line with our means, but it was one that both my husband and I thought was important for the kids at that point. I don't think that I felt guilty about being away from them. The only time I was employed for pay was when Sara was in care in Olivet. It was a tiny little town and a tiny little college so that she was one block from the campus and I could look out my office window and see the house where I knew she was and she knew that I was that nearby. I had all of my classes arranged for the morning so she was only there from 8:00 till 12:00. The juggling was trying to do my preparation and reading of papers, etc., at home afternoons and evenings when I was also mothering and that took some doing.  

MA:   Why did you stop at three children?  Did you consciously stop at three children?

KC:   Yes. I thought that was plenty.

MA:   How old were you when the third child was born?

KC:   Janet was the third one and I must have been 37.

MA:   Was that considered "old" at the time to be having a child?

KC:   Well the doctor thought it was old! I have a wonderful story about being in that doctor's office. I think I tend to remember the fun and funny things more than the unpleasant ones. I used to take David with me when I would go for my check-ups with this doctor and his office was right across the street from a convent so that frequently there would be nuns in the waiting room in their full habits, of course. David had one of the loudest voices for such a little guy. We sat in the waiting room one day and he said "Who are they? What are they?" because they were in these habits, and just sort of shouted it out, of course, looking at a couple of them, and I said, "Those are sisters from across the street." "Sisters! They look more like mommies to me!" was his loud retort.

MA:   Did the nuns respond?

KC:   They laughed.

01:04:32

        I think part of the juggling, to respond to your more basic question, really and truly had to do with my husband's view toward me and toward the causes that I was engaged in and that he too was engaged in.  Political things, peace things, the whole women's movement—and every time I would turn down something, I would decide not to go to a conference because of the expense of the travel or the time away from home—he would urge and encourage me to go and to spend the money and he would cancel whatever he had going. He wasn't just going through the motions, because whenever I would take him up on that or make the decision without having to be persuaded there was no question about what he would do. Our meals and our laundry and things of that kind we always did either together or whoever was here first and had more time would do it.  I just wouldn't have known any other kind of marriage I think.

MA:   When you married Hank you expected that it would be this way. You married someone who's political ideals were the same, you were both educated and it didn't ever occur to you that you wouldn't be equal in the home?

KC:   No. There were many things that it was easy for me to do, public speaking for example, was not Hank's forte at all and it made him nervous just the notion of having to.... I don't even know what kind of a teacher he was in the classroom. He had taught at Olivet, he had taught at Rutgers evenings when we were living in Shanks Village and he had been a TA when I first met him here at the University of Wisconsin. That's about the extent of his teaching experience. I used to wonder when he would respond to our own kids, who would have a question about whatever it was about, whether it was foreign policy or the mechanics of political institutions or whatever, that his responses often didn't take into account what the root of the question was. What was it the kids didn't understand and what was it they were trying to understand? Because he would give a response that told them what was in his head, rather than speaking to what was probably in their head, and then saying, "Am I really getting at what you wanted to know?" It was always my hunch, I never sat in and monitored his classrooms, but I wondered if part of the reason he didn't really enjoy teaching was that he never really got the whole idea of what a teacher does. I don't know about that, but maybe I do him an injustice, but this is still my observation.  I know that the kids would have to.... I would either chime in at some point, add to what their father had told them without saying "well for cripes sake..." or else they would come to me afterwards and say "How would you explain this?" I think I enjoyed very much the time with the kids when they were in school and were studying or learning something and would seek my help.

MA:   You were continuing to be a teacher.

KC:    I enjoyed those times and some of them were occasionally a real challenge of how do you get them to understand what it is they are reading without just doing it for them, so there would be long-range ramifications.

01:08:51

MA:   Did you ever think about, since you were raising two girls and a boy, how to raise them so that they would perceive their roles in society as being equal?

KC:   I don't know that we really talked about being equal. Of course I was brought up in a household where the boys were expected to do dishes and make their own beds.

MA:   And where your father treated you as an equal.

KC:   But my father never lifted a finger in the house of course to do housework.

MA:  So that's a difference.

KC:   But my brothers did and in fact they taught their wives how to do laundry and how to cook.

MA:   When you observed the kids, I'm thinking about today when we spend a lot of time talking about are we buying a truck for the girls and a doll for the boy and how do we socialize them to be more androgynous?

KC:    David had trucks to play with when he was little and I don't know that the girls ever expressed any great interest in having trucks, however he used to cuddle teddy bears and dogs and things. One of the things David cuddled in his crib when he was still drinking from a bottle at nap time, of course that was another dreadful thing I did with all my kids, I let them have a bottle of milk in bed.

MA:   Propped?

KC:    No, until they were practically old enough to start school. It made them happy going to sleep and that was fine with me. Nor did I care when they started using a toilet instead of diapers and finally they'd say "I think this is the time." They actually did mostly tell me when it was time to dispense with diapers.

MA:   That was radical child rearing for your time.

KC:    Was it?

MA:   Wasn't it?

KC:    I remember in Shanks Village that a couple of people I knew were doing things on schedule. It just didn't make sense to me to have anybody cry until your time said, "Now you can feed or take them outside or do something else." It's probably one of the reasons I spent more time with our first baby than one should have been required to.

MA:   How did you learn to be a parent?  Did you read books about child rearing?

KC:   I read a few books and Hank read them to. I remember being impressed every time I came across the statement "You have to do what comes naturally" I mean, these may be helpful suggestions but you've got to do it your own way. I kind of knew that about myself anyway. I'm very bad at pretending I enjoy something that I don't enjoy. I never did that with the kids; if they wanted me to play or do something that I found boring I would have to tell them, I did tell them that this bores me, you get somebody else to do it, ask me to do something else.

MA:   Do you recall who you read at the time?

KC:   No. Of course we owned a copy of Dr. Spock and got some helpful advice on what to do if certain things go wrong.

MA:  The crises

KC:   No. I don't remember what other things; not a lot, I didn't read a lot.

MA:   Did you look at your friends and how they were raising their children?

KC:   Yes. I got a lot of negative notions. I wouldn't put my kids in a cage and I wouldn't let them cry.

MA:   Learning from bad examples.

KC:   Yes. I think my mother was helpful when she would come to visit. She didn't come very often, but every year either she would come or we would go to visit. She never said, "Now I'm going to give you some good advice," but just the way she would handle the baby or the children or would kind of suggest to me some things I could do differently or do better.

MA:   Did your idea of who you were change during this time? What I'm thinking of here is often times even as professional women when we give birth to children all of a sudden our identity has taken some kind of a shift and we're not exactly sure anymore who we are. We know we're a mother and we know we're a wife but we're not too sure about the other things. Did you ever experience that kind of blurring?

KC:    I don't know. As I've said to you before, I'm not a very introspective person. I remember after Janet was born on Staten Island that I was active in the PTA in PS 11 (Public School 11) where Sara was enrolled. David was enrolled very briefly in PS 11 and the classroom was so crowded the teacher couldn't even open the cupboard where the materials were kept. They were so crowded in that first grade or kindergarten, whichever it was, that those kids had to go at one hour of the day and come back at a different time from everybody else. And right across the street from where we lived was the Staten Island Academy, a private school, with eleven children in the first grade and this marvelous teacher who was recently back from Japan, a play field that would make any high school envious. In violation of all the things we believed in with regard to public education, we enrolled David in the Staten Island Academy. He had a marvelous year including this nutritious hot lunch and then an afternoon nap on a cot; the contrast was sinful!  I was active in the PTA and Sara stayed in the Public School.  She was big enough and old enough to cope and her own grade wasn't all that crowded. The principal, Mrs. Sereta, who had been principal there for 25 years I guess, was just wonderful. She was so delighted to have someone who had a little education, I shouldn't say that because there were other parents there also who had, but I could go to afternoon meetings (I took Janet with me as an infant) and old Mrs. Seretta was something, she was retiring while we were still there so the PTA and some of the other faculty people wanted to have a special event and they rented an elegant place out on Staten Island to hold it. I wrote the script for "Mrs. Seretta This is Your Life." There were others on the committee who then got in touch with old friends and old relatives and they really did come in the way the television program used to go. That was just a fun thing for me to do.  She and I had a very nice relationship. I also had a Girl Scout Troop when Sara was a Girl Scout. I didn't have a troop but I had a role with the troop, International Relations. I would have the scouts come to our house. I became very conscious of the class distinctions and of some other discriminatory things about Staten Island.  I've already told you that our property abutted the only remaining private country club in the city of New York but we would join because they had such discriminatory membership. It was very hard to explain to David and Sara why all their friends could go over and swim and play tennis and why they couldn't.  They ultimately did understand and they kept saying, "Just because so-and-so isn't allowed to join, we are allowed." They kept inviting and we said "yes, but we do not want to be party to something... They finally got the word I guess.

I realized because we lived on the hill, on Tote Hill, and most of them came from down below, that apparently there was an awful lot of class distinction. Also Staten Island or at least the neighborhood where our school was located was heavily populated with people of Italian descent, many of them artisans, many of them artists, and wonderful kinds of people. I realized in this Girl Scout Troop that there was a lot of this uneasy sense of inferiority.

MA:   Did you feel that even when they would come up to your house?

KC:   Oh yes, but we had wonderful international relations games that I used to love to.... the best part of having children's parties for me was making up the games, inventing something that would be appropriate to the time and to the clientele, etc. I made up some things for the Girl Scouts to do. I had them do a little personal history, find out from their parents when their folks came from Italy and why they came and what they did and then we would locate it on the globe that I had in our playroom.

MA:   Reaffirming their culture.

KC:    Sure, by pointing out and by reaffirming I suppose what you mean is putting a real value on it and knowing that other people valued it. I found out that the husband of one of the women in the PTA actually had done a number of the important sculptures that were in Washington, D.C. at certain bridges and gates and stuff. We visited, as a group, his workshop and watched some of the things he did. I suppose that if he hadn't been of Italian origin I might not have thought to do it but I was still on this....

MA:   It sounds to me like you, going back to the question that I asked about your identity as a mother, if you'd sort of lost your other identity, clearly you were basically doing many of the things you had always done but within a different context.

KC:   Right. I even had a chance with Mrs. Seretta's retirement, which I hadn't thought of for many years until this moment, to do some writing, some creative writing

MA:   Probably a public speech.

KC:   Yes, right. I also got to know her well enough to point out that the geography book they were using was thirty years old and I thought the school system could well invest in something ... I mean the very idea of teaching geography out of....

MA:   Did she agree?

KC:   Yes. She first gave me a song and dance about no money and I thought, "Well what kind of fund raising do we need to do in order to get some current books or to whom should I write in the school board system", and pretty soon they found the money for the books.

01:21:36

MA:   Let's go back to Purdue for just a second. I have one question I wanted to ask. How did you find being a woman on the faculty? Did you feel equal? Was there discrimination? Were you paid equally?

KC:    I don't know that I ever checked out the salary. There were several other women in the department, I guess I was the only woman who was a political scientist but there was an economist and a historian. In fact, Patricia Graham, she has been on the Harvard faculty and is active in the higher education, Alberg, Patricia Alberg Graham was a little girl at Purdue when I went there to teach and her mother and father were both on the faculty at Purdue. The woman who was head of the Liberal Science special program that they had, which was excellent, was a woman whose name I can't think of at the moment, anyway there were a number of very competent, good women on the faculty. I didn't really feel, I don't know, the salary was modest but it was modest everywhere in those days.

MA:   You didn't feel like an isolated woman then, there were other women for you to commune with.

KC:   That's right. Although I must say that I spent more time with the men on the faculty, the men and their wives I think, maybe just because in my own department.... One of the men, Babcock in English I think, his wife had recently had a stroke and of course I never knew her before she had the stroke, but she was quite disabled. Her speach was nonexistant and she was very fraile. Apparently she had been one of these witty hostesses, but because of her illness they ate out a lot and they knew I had to eat out all the time so they would have me come along with them, sometimes with others and sometimes not with others. They were among my mainstays and then the others in the department, Bill Robinson, we had a lot of dinners together.

MA:    So that the women faculty did not automatically join together in the way that they would today around a women's center for example.

KC:    That's right.

MA:    You stayed within your departments probably pretty much.

KC:     Yes. Dorothy Bovay is the name of the woman who headed Women's Studies. She went from Purdue a few years later to Mills College out on the west coast. Now there were women, Harriet O'Shay who was in Psychology and Hilda Schwein in Phy Ed, and a few others would occasionally have a womens gathering or dinner or something and include me. I stayed in touch with those people for years. Hilda died a year or two ago.

MA:    Were most of those women married that were on the faculty?

KC:      No. Dorothy Bovay got married and then moved out to Mills College. She married later than the average bear, but the others were single and they never married. I understand that after I left Babcock's wife finally died and that he then married someone from the Home Ec. faculty that I had known when I was there, so that one was married.

MA:   Was it usual that faculty women might not -- it sounds like there were a large number of faculty women who were not married and that was not considered unusual.

KC:     No it was not unusual at all.

MA:    Were they considered odd?

KC:      No. When I joined the faculty here in Madison in 1961 and 1962 I began getting invitations, which every female faculty person gets, to come to meetings of the University Women, I don't know what it's really called, who are the wives of male faculty plus female faculty. I had never gone to it and in fact I think it is an insulting combination. If they want to have spouses of faculty then they can have spouses of faculty. I don't know what their common bond was. They learn Chinese cooking or whatever.

MA:   I assume that you didn't take up the invitation.

KC:      Never, and I kept getting it annually, at least. It was a very distasteful notion to me. Last year, actually Sheila Earl, who at the time was the First Lady of Wisconsin and is employed by the LaFollette Institute, which is a public policiy institute, she hosted the Spouses of Govenors and asked me to serve on the Planning Committee for the program and then to chair some of the sessions. Gina Shapiro chaired some of them also, and was on the Planning Committee so it was fun to do things with her. They referred to the sessions as "Gubernatorial Spouses", two of the spouses are men who decided they should refer to themselves as "First Mates" so the whole gang, men and women, referred to themselves as "First Mates" which I thought was a nice twist.

MA:   I agree.

01:28:31

Sixth Interview Session (October 27, 1987), Tape 6, Side 1

00:00:00

Start of Interview

00:00:10

MA:    Okay, tell me about the encampment for citizenship just briefly that you were involved with in 1947.

KC:    It is or was a special project of the Ethical Society which is kind of a religious fellowship, they describe themselves a little more in detail than that, but a very progressive group in New York City. I believe they had two other sites where there were local fellowships, one in either Cleveland or Cincinnati and one someplace I think in Pennsylvania. The organization in New York City actually either founded and started or was a very active participant in any number of interracial, antidiscrimination, antipoverty activities in the New York area.

MA:   So you applied for this fellowship and were chosen.

KC:      No. I had no fellowship; I had paid employment. It seems to me that I had mentioned on a previous tape that one summer when I was in graduate school here at Wisconsin that Hank Herman (Henry Herman) who was one of the leaders of the Ethical Society, they didn't have what they call ministers but leaders, was on a recruiting tour and did invite me to be on the faculty at the Encampment for Citizenship which was way ahead of its time.  It was a summer six week program for young people I think between the ages of 18 and 23 who had to be specially chosen or at least approved by the faculty before they could be admitted. They very deliberately and intentionally were as diverse a cross-section racially, economically, geographically, religiously and by gender as they could possibly put together. The encampment program consisted of visiting, looking at, interviewing, and seeing what the real world was really like, so it was quite a program. Eleanor Roosevelt had been very much interested in and in fact some years the group would get to go to Campobello. That was what the encampment for citizenship was all about. I declined the opportunity to be on the faculty because I wanted to finish my thesis at that time. When my husband and I returned from our summer in Europe in the fall of 1947 and I had already resigned from Purdue and had made the decision to stay in New York it was rather imperative that I find employment. I really had a good time job hunting. I have hardly job hunted in my life. I described my job hunt in Washington, D.C., which would up with the War Production Board but this was then another occasion when I did need to tramp the streets of New York City looking for a job.

MA:     What did you enjoy about the process?

KC:      It was the most legitimate way to ask employers and organizations what they do and why they do it and how they do it. One can be as nosy as possible as an applicant, or a potential applicant at least. I can remember that I had interviews with the Antidefamation League of B'nai B'rith and I don't even remember what some of the others were.

MA:   You were looking for progressive organizations then, it sounds like.

KC:      I was looking for a place that I would feel at home and comfortable and feel that what I was doing was worth doing. In fact I have advised mature women, during the period later on here at Wisconsin when they were thinking about doing something that I still think that it is more important to be associated with a group whose purpose is consistent with your own than whether the tasks you are performing are your first choice or not.  Just as I think counselors in school ought to be asking kids, maybe kids of all ages, not what do you want to be when you grow up but what kind of a world do you want to live in and what can you do with your life to help move the world a little closer to your own definition. Then if you have to earn a living to keep body and soul together, then that's something we all have to do.  It doesn't need to conflict necessarily with how one really invests energy and thought. Anyway, back to New York City.

MA:    So that's what pulled you toward the encampment then?

KC:     Well, in fact, I had no notion when I went in to visit with Henry Herman. I remembered having met him and in fact a mutual friend of ours in New York said "why don't you go ask him, he has his fingers in a lot of pies and might know some possibilities," so I went to visit with him and said I was looking for a job. Immediately he got this strange expression on his face and said "Who told you?" I said "Told me what?" "That the executive secretary of encampment had just submitted her resignation and they needed to find a replacement." So that was just one of those lucky coincidences. I was employed and, as I think I mentioned earlier, I told an untruth when I was asked if I could type and I said no, figuring they would hire a typist if I couldn't type which is just what happened. In fact, a very lovely young woman from Queens whom I got to know of course quite well while we worked together. I was not with the encampment very long. I spent my time, I did have a couple of field trips trying to recruit, well recruit and market perhaps because I made appointments in a number of communities to which I went not only with people who would know young people who might be eligible to come to the encampment but to try to interest organizations and individuals in making contributions of one kind or another.  Other than that my memory is a little bit vague about what I did at the encampment. I limited the evening time that I spent in the office, the offices were with the rest of the Ethical Society in the West 70's, Central Park West someplace in the 70's, 72nd I think but I'm not sure, because I had to commute back and forth to Shanks Village and if I didn't travel when the cars travelled that meant taking a late night bus which was a nuisance. One of the leading lights of the encampment was a woman named Alice Pullitzer, everyone called her Nanny Politzer, she was somebody's grandmother. Her sister was a very well known figure in labor education. Nanny Pullitzer was close to 90 when I knew her and just about as big as a minute, a tiny little person who lived just a couple of blocks from where the Ethical Society was so she used to walk back and forth. I had dinner at her home a number of times. When she was 90, or there abouts, she and her sister sued the federal government and they were defended in that suit by her (Nanny's) grandson who was Dean of the Yale Law School, I may have some of this information slightly inaccurate but I think this is correct, and their suit was to make a change. The federal government was requiring people, in order to qualify for social security, to sign a loyalty oath. These two women who had never stopped fighting city hall all their lives picked and chose their turf on which to fight, and won that suit. In any case, there were a lot of remarkable people that I had an opportunity to sort of work with and watch and listen to.

00:10:21

MA:   That must have been influential in terms of your development in some way?

KC:   They were very unhappy at the Ethical Society when I wore a Henry Wallace button on some occasion; there liberalism had its limits.

MA:   Henry Wallace was to radical for the Ethical Society?

KC:    That's right. I found that very interesting. In any case, I was pregnant with what turned out to be Sara Clarenbach before the summer encampment actually began and I was very much interested in the Wallace campaign so I never did go to the summer thing. I felt badly about missing it but it just didn't seem to fit in. I suppose because of what looked pretty radical to them in my case was mutually satisfactory that I didn't. I continued always to have high regard for the many things that both the Ethical Society and the encampment were doing. I have no idea whether that still exists or not. Hank Herman and his wife, Gertrude, moved to Madison sometime after we came here in 1960 and I think it was probably still in the 1960s. They were both graduates of the University of Wisconsin and her home had originally been someplace here in Wisconsin and Hank Herman was employed by the Memorial Union, the Student Union, as program director and he also had faculty rank and status. I remember they were dinner guests here along with several other of my good friends on the faculty the night we invested in our first air conditioner. My husband had always assumed that in Wisconsin no one needed air conditioning, that we'd get one or two hot days and then they'd be gone. You weren't here this summer to know that for six weeks it was so miserably hot that everybody nearly died if they didn't have air conditioning. However, I think it was over 100° and certainly in our living room it seemed so, so people left a little earlier than they would have otherwise. By 9:00 the house was empty and Hank said "excuse me I'me going down to Klein Dickert" and he brought back an air conditioning unit.

MA:   When you spent time with the man from the Ethical Society in a comfortable way, did you ever talk with him about the Henry Wallace campaign and where the Ethical Society stood politically.

KC:    I don't know that we ever had a very open conversation. Hank Herman died very suddenly of a heart attack at a much too young age a few years after they moved here to Madison. His wife continued, she has now retired I think, but she joined the faculty of the Library School and is a real feminist and has done some lovely things particularly in books and literature for children. I see her occasionally.

00:14:06

MA:   After the Ethical Society, you then went on to teach in Michigan, is that correct?

KC:    Yes. From the Ethical Society I did the little Henry Wallace campaign stint and then Sara was born the next January of 1949 so I was not employed for pay then for the next year and a half. It was during that second year that my husband and I sent applications to various institutions of higher learning. Hank was teaching one evening a week at Rutgers to augment the $90.00 a month on which we otherwise lived and having actually literally spent what money either one of us had accumulated for our Europe trip we had nothing other than that $90. My dad would mail us, from Wisconsin, a crate of eggs about every month and by the last week or two of the month our $90 would be all used up, $27 for rent, and we would practically live on those eggs. I'd mail the empty carton back to my dad and he would, from his various farm parishioners, get farm fresh eggs and send it back. That was a real essential part of our maintenance. In any case, the one institution that responded to our inquires favorably was Olivet College in Michigan. We had never heard of it so we made some inquiries from the AAUP and got mixed messages about the college. We knew that it was a small school and that it was essentially sponsored by the Congregational Church, just as Oberlin is and a number of other institutions.  There had been some kind of faculty administration blow up a few years before that and there were questions whether the school was in good standing or whatever. We figured that was the reason they looked favorably on the possibility of hiring a husband and wife team. We came back to Wisconsin where Hank's brother lives here in Madison and my parents of course were in Sparta and borrowed a car to go over to Olivet College to have a personal interview with the president who had been a missionary, a Congregational minister and a missionary in China or someplace and really had no business trying to be president of a college, but he was. They offered us a salary and a half for two full-time jobs and we took it.

MA:    What did you teach?

KC:     They only needed one political scientist and that was all that Hank was really qualified to teach, so I became their sociology faculty and Hank was the political science. There were students there who thought they were majoring in sociology (I can't remember if I mentioned this before or not but it seems to me I did.) who up until that year had the option of taking maybe two or at most three sociology courses which didn't strike me as being much of a major.  I designed four courses each semester, eight different courses, the first year that I was there.

00:18:10

MA:    And you had a child?

KC:     Yes, a year and a half old. The first year that we were there we found a family for Sara to stay with who live across the street from us. They were members of the Bahai faith. I remember when we told the people who ran the local newspaper, the Olivet Optic, they said "now where is your little girl staying" and we said "with Jean Farrand," "Oh" said they, "rock-a-bye baby". Anyway, I had never known anything about the Bahai faith and was certainly well and favorably impressed with the international peace and the fact that, at least those Bahai that I met, really took their faith seriously and it was expressed in their daily relations with other people which is not the case with too many people who profess various religious faiths.

MA:   So you were very pleased to have Sara with them.

KC:      Yes, and they lived right across the street from us so we would take her there in the morning. I arranged to have all of my classes in the morning only so that I could pick her up at noon and be with her the rest of the day and hope that she would take a nap so that I could do my school work and do more of it again at night when when she was in bed. 

MA:    Do you recall what you created? It is incomprehensible to think of creating four courses per quarter.

KC:      I don't remember them all, but I do remember the History of Social Thought which was a two semester course so that was one of them each semester, Introductory Anthropology, Criminology, some social problems kind of things, a number of them courses that I had never taken myself and they were some of the best courses I ever taught because I made no bones about never having known what it was about and I would stay at least even with the students if not a day ahead of them in my preparation, but I relied on the students in the class to help with the teaching and urged them to do research to bring in materials to supplement or to argue or to get us going in a different direction and the students kind of liked that.

MA:   So it was successful.

KC:    Yes, I think so.

MA:   Was that the first time you had taught in that way?  Was it a new awareness for you?

KC:    It was the first time I had been totally unprepared.

MA:   What I am wondering is if you integrated that process into later teaching, then, as a result of this even if you weren't under pressure to do so.

KC:     Well I suppose I did. One thing that I have never been able to do or never wanted to do is to pretend to know something when I don't know it or to pretend a lot of other things. I never pretended with my kids that I enjoyed something when I didn't enjoy it because I figure I'm pretty poor at doing that. I always have wanted in later teaching a lot of group participation. I don't care if I stay on (maybe you can tell that from the way these interviews have been going) I have a tendency to veer off in a lot of directions. If something strikes a student and they want to move off in that direction that's fine with me. I think that is the way learning takes place. I don't know to what extent .... I remember an incident, you are reminding me now, when we moved to Madison, I think I mentioned that first Edgewood and then the University Extension called. The University Extension course that I taught in the evening was a course in American government (this is later and I will get us back to Olivet in a minute) and one student in the course mentioned on some occasion that there was a good article in the Progressive magazine that was illustrating whatever it was we were talking about. That was a student who up until then had sat there looking not only bored but almost annoyed that he had to be there and I said "oh, wonderful" and asked if he could bring a copy of the article in for us to look over because I wasn't familiar with it and he said "I can bring copies for everyone" and he kind of brightened up at the prospect of doing that so the next class period he did. Then I found out that he was the son of one of the men on the staff of the Progressive magazine.  His mother teaches in Extension but I only met his mother and father later on. They continue to this day, and that was 1961, to tell me that the experience of that son of theirs, Sean McGrath, in that night course was almost a turning point for him. He had kind of hated school in high school and after he brought those articles in and kind of explained, from then on he was a very active participant in that class. It may or may not illustrate what you were getting at.

MA:   It does, evidence of your theory actually working, even though it wasn't a theory initially.

KC:   It may not still be a theory.

00:24:50

KC:    So, back to Olivet. We really in many ways loved that experience at Olivet. I can remember my mother came to visit us one time, she came on the train to Battle Creek, Van Johnson (is that the name of the movie star?) was on the train with my mother to, in fact they got off the train together at Battle Creek, he was coming for some kind of medical attention and she got off there because that was the closest train station to Olivet. He had bought her dinner on the train and they had visited almost the whole time. I'm sure he enjoyed her the way all of my friends always had. It was also kind of an exciting experience for my mother.

MA:   To meet a notable

KC:     Yes. One of her observations when she visited us and we had our friends, both from the faculty and from the town, the whole town was only a couple hundred people and the enrollment at the college was something like 500 –it was very tiny— and my mother said she wondered if we'd ever live in a place where we would have as many interesting nice, friends as we had in that tiny little community. Hank and I taught an adult Sunday School class, these were things we did in order to stay alive.

MA:     Above and beyond your teaching job you mean?

KC:      Yes; we were urged to do this. It was really another course in political science but we were trying to integrate ethical notions with people's political outlook. We belonged to the PTA of the local school. Again, we had no one in school but it was something to do. Then one of the men on the high school faculty who did something with the Kellogg Foundation, which was based in Battle Creek, got a little money and asked us to teach an evening course (this was at the time of the Korean War) in foreign policy. That group met in our own house one night a week for I don't know how many weeks. With the money we bought our first, it wasn't stereo really, just our first decent record player. It wasn't much money but it was enough to get something and that was kind of fun.

MA:    That also was the place where we met Ruth and Paul Engle. Paul Engle was the local M.D. and his wife was very active in a lot of things. About the first week we lived in Olivet, at at least that first autumn anyway, I wanted Sara, who was just a year and a half, to have the opportunity to be with other children and there was no childcare, nursery or preschool in this little town, but one of the faculty wives was teaching a children's art class down at the local church which was just a block from where we lived. In fact you could hardly get further than a block from almost anyplace in Olivet. So I asked if Sara could enroll in this painting class, not that I had any aspirations for any artistic development, but just as an opportunity to be with other kids. When I took her down there the first day they were having a rummage sale, not connected with the art class but in the church basement, so I looked around and there was a wonderful snowsuit exactly Sara's size for $1 but I had come without any money. I asked someone running the rummage sale "would you hold that for me and when I come to pick up Sara I will bring the dollar?" They were afraid they couldn't do that. They took one look at me and weren't sure I would ever have a dollar! I thought that was so funny! Anyway, this Ruth Engle who had met me and knew I was on the faculty came over and vouched for me and was willing, if necessary, to put up the dollar so I did get the snowsuit. Sara did enjoy the art class and occasionally when I would go to pick her up the teacher, Pat - Patricia her last name may come to me, it doesn't really matter, used to have parties, she and her husband, for adults where we would do art things as entertainment in the evening and that was kind of fun.  She also baked delicious homemade bread.  She would make me do art work instead of just sitting there as an observer if I wanted to come while the children's class was going.

CK:     And that wasn't one of your comfort areas was it?

KC:      No it wasn't. She used the affirmative approach always. I never heard her say to anyone, adult or child, doing art work "Oh my god is that awful" or "You can do better than that." She always found something good to say about it. One of the times when I was down there with Sara I had painted sort of a winter scene with a denuded tree in the snow and she came by and I could just see her wracking her brain trying to think of something good to say and finally she said "I love this little trail through the snow" which had been created by some kid walking by and inadvertently running a fingernail over it. That was not my forte. We did, especially the Engles, well there were others, I just this very day shipped to my daughter Janet a box that has a gift in it from one of my Olivet friends, Esther Masters, who lives there. Ruth and Paul Engle went from Olivet where he had been a country doctor for 25 years, Ruth was never gainfully employed in Olivet but she certainly was a spark plug in getting all kinds of community things in motion and staying in motion. He got weary of being a country doctor in this one town. Hank and I only stayed there two years and we had, especially Hank, had had enough of being in that small town so we departed. (I'll move myself on from there in a minute but I want to tell a little bit about the Engles.) They visited us several times in St. Louis which was our next permanent landing place where we lived for four years. About the time we moved to Staten Island Dr. Engles took a job with the State Department to be the American physician overseas in countries that had inadequate medical facilities to treat American civilians. A whole arrangement that I had no notion was going on in part of our government. He had the equivalent status of an ambassador, at least particularly when he got to the South Pacific, but first they were stationed in Pakistan and Beirut and then ultimately they went to the Pacific and he was in the Phillippines and had charge of medical facilities for the whole South Pacific at that time. They visited us on Staten Island coming and going to several of these places. When they finally retired they built an A-frame house or cottage up in the wood near Rhinelander, Wisconsin and invited us up to visit them, offered us a chunk of land if we would put a cottage on it. I said "Who wants a cottage 200 miles from home? Not I!" and then we made the mistake of going up to visit. It is such a glorious, georgous spot, this glaciated area with the terrain and undergrowth and the white birch and pine and oak trees and I had to recant and we accepted.  First they gave us just one acre of land and then we bought another four acres and built a cottage, that was 20 years ago, and had marvelous times.  Both Ruth and Paul are dead now.  Ruth died, she must have been around 65 I guess, of cancer and Paul lived another 10 or 12 years, in fact just died in fact this year. I went to each service over in Michigan. I had to speak at Ruth's service, I say "had to" because it was not something I really wanted to do. I also went this year to Paul's services. They remained marvelous friends of ours and their four daughters and in-laws and grandchildren, Ruth and Paul's grandchildren are about the age of our youngest, Janet, and of David too. We are all, even though Ruth and Paul are now gone, the rest of their clan still come up there and use the cottage.

MA:   How nice!

KC:     It is very nice. Our kids used to ask us, even when they were grown, "now tell me again, what relation are we to the Engles?" On Paul's 80th birthday we had a big birthday bash up at the cottage and all of their kids and kin were there. I'm regarded as the poet laureate of the Rhinelander woods. When Susan Engle Lawrence, who is Janet's age, was married I did a big poem for that occassion and used the Hiawatha motif, "By the Shores of Gitchigumy" this one was "by the shores of Crystal Lake". Then on Paul's birthday I told them about our 35 year friendship in rhyme with many verses and read that at the big beach party.

MA:    It sounds wonderful!

KC:     It has been a wonderful relationship and we just think of the Engles with our cottage and with our summer vacations.

00:36:34

MA:    When you look back on all of that, this is certainly forcing an intellectual jump I suppose, did you ever think about womens role then? Did you look at the community and ask yourself what women were doing or question in any way what was happening? I would imagine that was a fairly traditional, middle-class community.

KC:     It was and it wasn't. It was semirural as well as...

MA:    It did have a college in it which made it somewhat different.

KC:    That's right.

MA:    You mentioned that women were involved in a lot of reform or a lot of community things.

KC:    There were also a number of women on the faculty, I suppose on the same financial basis perhaps that ....

MA:    With their husbands you mean, at one and a half salaries?

KC:     Yes. There were a number of married couples on the faculty. There were very few institutions in the country that permitted or would even do that.

MA:    Were you treated equally, the men and the women on the faculty?

KC:     Oh I think so. We were treated with the same amount of respect.

MA:     That's my question.

KC:      Yes. In fact I think some of us women were better than the men and that was kind of acknowledged by the students, not by any great payment. Women were employed. This friend who just sent Janet this gift that I'm shipping today, she and her husband ran a furniture store. They lived in the funeral home, they were not morticians but whenever there was a funeral they, as Esther would say, passed out programs. They assisted the undertaker, not in undertaking but for the service itself. Everyone of the little shops in town tended to be "mom and pop", the drug store and...

MA:     It doesn't sound like then Betty Friedan's Feminine Mystique would have been very much in evidence in that small town.

KC:      Of course the Feminene Mystique was written and published almost thirteen years after we were there in Olivet. I don't know, people managed to keep themselves occupied. I know that I joined a women's church circle; there was one church, it was kind of a community church. I guess people who were Catholic would go to other nearby towns in order to go to a Catholic services, but anyone else, including a couple of Jewish families just, it was a community church and a lot of activity centered around that so that we who are card carrying atheists .... As I told you, I taught an adult Sunday school class and did other things. All the women's church circles had funny names, they were named for women who had been stalwarts in the church I suppose. One was named Fanny Quick and I don't even remember which one I belonged to but I would pick up a couple of old ladies who lived near me who didn't drive and when it was a day to go to a lunch meeting of the circle that was held out of town like on a farm, one of these women was kind of retarded, anyway, I chauffeured these two old ladies.  When there was a church supper I volunteered to work in the kitchen. I remember the first time or two that I did that the locals, those who were not affiliated at the college at least were quite shocked to see a college professor working in a church.

MA:    That must have endeared them to you.

KC:     Or vice versa. I didn't see any reason not to do that.

MA:     It sounds like the women didn't experience isolation for one thing in the town.

KC:      No. I think they made activity. There was a lot of bridge playing. We played bridge a lot especially with Ruth and Paul Engle. We also became the recipients, very early in our stay there, temporary custodians of a great big, round poker table. The house we were renting was big enough to house that table so that was a great joy to all these other families who didn't want to have it on their premises I'm sure. That's because there were a couple of husbands in the group, some faculty and some just local business people, who didn't play bridge so that occasionally we'd have an evening of poker and that was always kind of fun. Sam Robinson who was the head of the Music Department, and Olivet had a very good Music Department, Sam and his wife had two grand pianos in their living room! Nothing else in the living room because it wouldn't hold anything else, but they would play four handed. Once in awhile Lou Robinson, Sam's wife, would invite four of us and we would play eight handed things, two people sitting at each piano (that makes eight hands doesn't it?) in their living room.  After we had lunch we'd sit in there and that was really kind of fun.

MA:   Oh how nice.

KC:    Just as I had grown up in Sparta, 3,500 population, where you either made activities or you atrophied.

MA:   And this does sound very similar. You must have felt at home then in many ways.

KC:     Yes, I did. Even I suppose the church and the school, the PTA kind of affiliation were things that were certainly familiar to me.

MA:    If Hank had wanted to stay would you have liked to?

KC:     I suppose, although I didn't mind leaving.  We left there not knowing where we were going or to what we were going.

MA:   And you didn't mind that?

KC:     Well, I didn't like it especially but I figured we'd find something someplace. We thought that it might be fun to go to a warmer climate, as I still think it would be, not only fun, but intelligent! The Michigan winters were worse than I had remembered Wisconsin winters. Somehow it seemed to me that a cloud came across lake Michigan and covered the State of Michigan, or at least the part I lived in, and stayed there all winter long.  The numbers of bright sunny days were so rare. I don't know if that is an accurate memory or not but at the time that's what it seemed to me and my memory as I look back seems the same. In any case, we decided when we left Olivet, they had a couple of magnificent farewell parties for us, one that was a total surprise that our students had for us. We had gone over to the Engles for the afternoon, they had invited us for bridge or something, and it kept getting later and later in the afternoon and they didn't say anything about having supper with them which they would normally do. That's the kind of relationship we had, either one of us would fish out what we had in the refigerator and call it a meal. As we drove away from there I said to Hank why don't we just go to the restaurant (there was one restaurant in town) and he said alright but he thought he should stop at the house first, I suppose to use the bathroom. I said as we were driving away "Isn't it strange that Ruth didn't say anything about having supper with them?" He thought it was strange too. Anyway, he went into our house and came out in a few minutes and he said "Telephone for you" and I said "Well can't you take a message?" "Well no, this is for you." Our students, especially our very best students had been at our house all afternoon and Ruth and Paul knew it; had prepared a meal, [break in recording].  

00:46:26

The students had cooked this spaghetti dinner, a couple of them had even gone down to the local creek and picked watercress to throw in the salad. They had gifts for each of us: Hank's was a yellow sport shirt; Sara a beautiful little yellow piqué dress; I can't remember what they gave me but it was again something appropriate and nice. So here was our house full of kids and it was no wonder Ruth and Paul didn't invite us to stay!  They had collaborated by sneaking us out and keeping us out. Then there was another going away party for us which the adults, town and campus folks together. The second year we lived there Sara was cared for by another family, the local dentist and his wife, she was quite a good musician and they had a little girl just a little older than Sara, anyway, this party was at their house. They had converted the garage into kind of a dining area.  There was a program at that party that was so funny, a couple of the men, Harold Masters dressed up in a cap and gown and did imitations of he college president. That was the one part that I did remember and I remember it particularly because the next day or so some spy told the college president and the dean about how they were both taken off and mimicked at this party. He had the poor judgment to call in this Harold Masters, who wasn't even on the faculty, he ran the local furniture store with his wife, and scolded him, which tells you quite a bit about the college president. Esther Masters gave Sara, as a little going away gift, a kitten.

MA:   Just what you needed.

KC:    Just exactly what we needed. Also, Bobby Wilkes, the son of the Wilkes where the party was and where we stayed our last night, gave Sara the chickenpox. We found out, as we were driving away with this tiny little kitten, that Bob Wilkes broke out with the chickenpox, so we knew that Sara would be getting it soon. We stayed with my mother and dad in Sparta long enough for the chickenpox to develop, for my mother to teach me what you do with chickenpox and for the kitten to have a field day running around the yard at my parents house.  

00:49:41

MA:   When we got ready to pack up and go, our intention had been to go to California and see if we could find a job.

KC:    Just drive to California?

MA:   Yes. We had friends living in Los Angeles who invited us to stay with them. They only had two children and a one bedroom apartment, so the three of us did stay with them for a month or two. We loaded up, when Sara recovered from the pox, and offered to drive my mother's sister, Aunt Carrie, with us as far as Little Rock, Arkansas where their other sister lived and had a motel. We got in the car and this little kitten who had had three weeks of running wild didn't much like being confined in a little box. With my old aunt there I didn't want the kitten jumping all over her so it got to be kind of an unpleasant ride. We got as far as Dubuque, Iowa and stopped at a filling station or a garage for something and the kitten jumped out and we had to chase it all around town before we caught it and brought it back. I figured this can't go on all the way to California so I had the job of explaining to Sara, who was then three and a half, that her sweet little kitty would be much happier elsewhere than in our car and that maybe we could find a home for it. Anyway, it took some doing! We were driving through the Iowa rural area and saw this beautiful farm up on a hill, it just looked beautiful from the road. So I said "Hank let's go up there" and we did. We honked and out came a woman and two or three little kids. I was the spokesperson for this negotiation and I said you may think we have just flipped but could you people by any chance use a kitten. The children began to cry, they had just moved there and had to leave their own cat behind and couldn't believe that someone....We gave them the kitty litter box and the eating dish and the kitten and then took down their name and address because this was part of the deal with Sara that she could send postcards to the kitten and the kitten would be delighted to receive them. Anyway, those folks were overjoyed, we were overjoyed, we thanked them and went on our way. Sara didn't even cry. She thought that the people looked nice.  A further part of the bargain, a part I shouldn't have forgotten, I said when we get to Los Angeles we will get you another kitten. We stopped at my Aunt Mary's and Uncle Harry's in Little Rock and they wouldn't let us drive on the 4th of July weekend. We did stop in Jefferson City and visit Hank's parents and then on. We stayed with my aunt and uncle for a few days and that was kind of a nice opportunity for all of us to be together. We got to Los Angeles and told Bob and Irene Bland, or just happened to mention the kitty incident, and Bob Bland who was an architect and a builder, came home, out in the back yard of their little apartment place, built a cat house, bought four kittens, one for each, and they were really pretty young to have left their mother but anyway

MA:   One for each child?

KC:   There were only three children but I guess there were four kittens in the litter so he bought them all.  That's the kind of a person he is.

MA:   Did you take that one cat then and continue?

KC:   No we never took it with us but their kids and ours enjoyed the animals a lot.

MA:  You lived with them then in Los Angelse for two months while you were looking for work?

KC:   Yes. I think it was almost, well we were there sometime after the 4th of July and I think it was early September when we drove back to Missouri.

MA:   So you didn't stay in California then, you decided not to stay?

KC:    I think if we had not been in the Los Angeles area, if we had gone up the coast a little bit to either San Francisco or the Monterey Bay area that we might have looked more diligently for something but we really didn't care about the Los Angeles area. However, mostly Hank didn't find a job and I was not looking for a job, he was.  

00:55:13

Finally, through a friend, met someone who was employed by the American School Private Home Study Correspondence who told Hank that there was a vacancy on their staff in St. Louis. Of course Missouri is his home state so he agreed, sort of sight unseen, to accept the job and the guy with whom we spoke was empowered to offer it to him. So we got in the car and drove madly back to St. Louis. We got as far as Jefferson City and I began having what turned out to be a very serious miscarriage. Hank had to report on the job in St. Louis so he left Sara and me in Jefferson City with his dad and mother and sister. His sister and her husband and little boy all lived with the parents. It was a very unhappy occasion, not only to have this miscarriage but I think Hank's mother must have felt imposed upon, unless she was just always mean, I don't know if she always was or not but she would talk very loud in the kitchen, I was up in a bedroom, so her voice would come up through the radiator and she would make critical remarks about how I was dressing Sara and how I did this and that.

MA:   And when you were sick!

KC:      Yes, and very painfully so, plus disappointed. Finally they called the doctor. I'm not a grumbler to begin with and definitely didn't want to impose any more than I already was, if I'd felt more in charge of myself I suppose I would have had a doctor there much sooner. We finally did get a doctor, someone that they called, and with Sara right within his hearing this guy said, he was a young doctor and by that I mean he should have known better, "can't leave her here to bleed to death" shouted he, with my poor little girl looking.  So then he said he'd get an ambulance. Well the ambulance turned out to be a hearse, so I've told people I've had my ride, I don't need another one in the back end of hearse. They took me to the hospital and I did have this miscarriage. Hank came running back from St. Louis where he was supposedly starting a new job.

MA:     And little Sara was left with grumbly grandma?

KC:      Right. Anyway, Hank started his job and found a house for us to rent in the outskirts of St. Louis. He took me home.

MA:    Did they know why you had a miscarriage?

KC:      No, there were quite a few theories. It's possible that the drive from Los Angeles didn't help but later on when we were in St. Louis I went to a physician at the university there who was kind of a specialist and had theorized and, in any case, I finally did produce two more children. I think I've told you one of my favorite stories (don't even bother to stop me and I'll tell it quickly). I looked like, as my father would say "the last carnation on a rough box," just awful. Monday after we were in St. Louis I was sitting there in front of the mirror, combing my hair or something, and just looked at this gaunt, pale, and was feeling very sorry for myself and I said "oh Sara, I look just like a witch." She came over and hugged me and said "oh no you don't mommy, you don't even have a pointed hat!" So there we were in St. Louis and I did recover.

00:59:44

MA:   How long were you in St. Louis?

KC:   We were there four years. I can't even remember how I got to meet some people from the League of Women Voters. I suppose if I were to think long enough I might remember whom I met where. I know that we developed bridge partners right away. Almost every time we moved to a new town I would need a dentist the first crack out of the box. I might not need a dentist for four years but as soon as we'd move...Anyway, the dentist, the first time I went there said you're new in town etc., and pretty soon he said "do you play bridge" and I said "yes, indeed we do" and he and his wife liked to play bridge. We developed a nice friendship but that was not my introduction to the League of Women Voters but it was probably something equivalent to that.  Somebody from the League of Women Voters, when they found out here's a Ph.D. in Political Science and they had a vacancy on their State Board in sort of a civil liberties subject matter, this was 1952, Joe McCarthy was riding high in the State Senate, Wisconsin's contribution. One publication the League of Women Voters had out was called "To Bigotry No Sanction" and it really is a ...I stumbled across it recently among some other stuff that I had. One of their items, I never even belonged to the League of Women Voters wherever I had lived.

MA:    This was your first time?

KC:     Yes, and I only did to serve on the State Board and went to meetings or conferences whatever and made presentations on that subject. I met a lot of wonderful people through that League experience in St. Louis.

MA:    How did you like the experience?

KC:      I liked it very much. I was ready for, in the first place Hank's work did not give us any kind of associations or companionship or meet any people. He was out in the hinterlands enrolling students in the private home study correspondence course and leads would come in through advertising. He would have to track down these leads and drive to heck and gone in his area of Missouri, sometimes in the St. Louis area but more often in the hinterlands. He didn't get to meet, you know when you're on a faculty or if you work for a firm...

MA:   There were no colleagues to bring home.

KC:     That's right. However, I did get in touch with the League of Women Voters people, as I say I can't remember but I met and developed some good friends in the St. Louis particularly suburban area and through the State Board.  I stayed on the State Board for as long as we stayed in St. Louis.

MA:     Which was four years?

KC:      Yes, and in the midst of those four years David was born in September of 1953. Just about the time we were ready to leave St. Louis, well we didn't know we were ready to leave, that's when Hank went to St. Louis University and brought home an application form because I was obviously getting antcy. David was almost two then and I wanted to be doing something more than I was doing. We did have a babysitter, Mrs. Dendler, who was a widowed woman in her fifties who was the only person we every had to stay with the kids when we were in St. Louis. She was lovely with the kids. She thought David was the smartest little baby she had ever met in her life.

MA:    And you probably agreed

KC:     Yes, probably. Anyway, he was crazy about her.  

01:04:39

The reason we moved from St. Louis, I believe I already mentioned earlier something about Laura Ingalls Wilder (she had nothing to do with our leaving St. Louis, I just wanted not to forget) Hank was offered a promotion with the American School in the New York office. His predecessor, who was regional director for New York and New England, dropped dead at his desk. It was a very stressful, maybe a lot of private enterprise where you have to make another buck is stressful, so Hank was offered this job which meant he was in charge of all personnel, hiring, training, firing, for nine states and also for advertising, for developing the advertising strategy and deciding when and in what media to put what kind of an ad. His office was in Manhattan which meant a move from St. Louis to New York. I suggested that, he went ahead to find a place for us to live before I took off with the kids, that he get in touch with my aunt and a couple of cousins who lived on Staten Island.  This was my father's only sibling and her two sons, one was a physician and one a dentist and they all lived on Staten Island and I had visited them a number of times over the years. He did and found a house on Staten Island where there was fresh air and green grass and open space.

MA:   How nice!

KC:      Yes it was nice. He described it to me over the phone and I said fine go ahead and we have an address to come to.  He had driven out. I had a second car in St. Louis because he was gone with the family car all the time, so we had this elcheapoo used car but it was adequate. I sold it for $100 the guy gave me cash, a $100 bill for the car. That one I parted with without tears; Usually I had a terrible time parting with cars. The model A was just a wrench, from Shanks Village when we sold that. 

01:07:18

In any case, we did move to New York.  Once again, I was not employed and I wasn't thinking about employment. Janet was born in New York on Staten Island.

MA:   It's no wonder you weren't thinking about employment!

KC:      But again, when she got to be about two, Hank went to Wagner College on Staten Island, I mean we talked a bit and he would say "aren't you wanting to get back in the classroom?" It wasn't because we needed money; his income from that New York job was more than we ever though we would ever earn or have.

MA:    How nice for you.

KC:     It was nice. So for a few years we had an adequate income.

MA:    He knew that you needed to go back to work. Did you know that?

KC:      I had inklings, I didn't know it as strongly as he did, but maybe I was just never as fast to move on an inkling.  Hank always you know if there was a repair needed in the house, he would have it fixed almost before I noticed that it needed to be done. Unlike a lot of husbands who need to be nagged and coaxed he was always.... and that's the way he did everything.

MA:   A few steps ahead?

KC:      If he needed a new shirt or socks or something he got them that day, he didn't put them on a list to do.We talked for close to two years about leaving Staten Island and leaving that job before we really made the firm decision, because it wasn't our kind of life.

MA:    Were you in suburbia, is that what it was basically?

KC:     Yes, but it's even more than suburbia, well maybe not even more, but we lived on the hill where the rich folks lived and in the country club.

MA:   That's right. That's the country club you wouldn't allow the children to participate in.

KC:   Well that we wouldn't join, yes. Here Sara was going to the public school and I was active in the PTA but there was sort of a rift between the rich people up on the hill and the common folk down in the valley.

MA:   And that wasn't a lifestyle you were used to?

KC:     That's right, and then there was no political activity, in its broadest sense, not only party politics, and community activity would consist of a dinner party or a bridge party. One of the saving graces for me personally were our neighbors across the street, the DuBois (I don't know if I've mentioned them before or not). I viewed them as surrogate grandparents for our children. He was retired from the Yale Medical School. Mr. DuBois was an engineer who was employed by the Medical School to develop new equipment for use in medical research or medical practice which was very interesting. Theodora McCormick DuBois was a writer who published half a dozen books. They had a big loom in their house; he loomed draperies and throws and things and were just wonderful people. They would have us over on their verandah, have me and the kids for afternoon tea or morning coffee or whatever and came to our house a lot. They gave us some intellectual life which is not to say that they were just dunderheads living around us, they were not at all. A couple behind us, the Nachburs from Switzerland who had a three acre garden and hired two or three gardners were lovely people and very interesting. But there was no activity, the kind of activity that Madison just absolutely is filled with.

MA:   The energy of social change.

KC:    If there were political issues in the community, I was never aware of them.  I didn't know

01:12:02

MA:     I want to digress a moment with regard to that because when you were in St. Louis, this is the time that Joe McCarthy was really coming into the public eye, what was that like? Was there talk among you and your friends on an ongoing basis about this?

KC:      Well there was among some of the people I met through the League of Women Voters. Eleanor and Herman Kaplow and some other folks that they introduced us to so when we had time with these people, yes.

MA:   We know historically what a danger he was. Did people realize at the time what was going on?

KC:   Yes, some people did. Those who were civil libertarians.

MA:   It depends so often on what the press is printing and what the radio was saying.

KC:      And of course by the time we were in St. Louis, we were there from 1952 to 1956, it was after 1956 wasn't it that the army hearings.....

MA:   I believe so.

KC:   I believe that we watched some of those when we lived on Staten Island which was 1956 to 1960.

MA:     So you were on Staten Island when the hearings were going on, but yet there wasn't an organization in your community around that?

KC:      Oh no. That's part of what we were talking about when I was on the State Board of the League of Women Voters in Missouri.

MA:   So that was an issue the League of Women Voters addressed?

KC:    Yes.

01:14:06  

End of Interview session six / end of Tape 6
	
Seventh Interview Session (November 3, 1987), Tape 7

00:00:12

MA:     Okay, let’s talk about your move from Staten Island to Wisconsin.

KC:      In 1960. We actually moved in August but made the decision six months at least before that. Hank had some time persuading the American School, his employeer, that he really and truly was going to leave the job. It was regarded as one of the plum assignments in that national organization or business and people didn't belieave that he really meant that he was going to leave. He gave them sufficient advance notice that they could hire someone to replace him and that he would even be there to train the person or help with the transition. In our conversations at home we were trying to decide, we knew we wanted to leave New York City and wanted to leave the rat race of that kind of employment but where to go was a question and the world was wide open to us. We hadn't familiarity with a great many places and neither one of us particulary liked cold weather, so of course we wound up in Madison. With all the criteria we had in mind, the one place that we were familiar with that seemed to meet them was Madison. So we did make the decision to come here.

MA:   And it was a mutual decision, you wanted to come as much as he did?

KC:      Oh yes. Of course for me it was coming back home to Wisconsin. Hanks brother lived here in Madison, that was no special inducement to Hank although he had liked his brief experience here in graduate school. In my case it was getting very close to my parents and my two brothers and their families which I liked. I think that was part of the inducement but I think it was just the general spirit and the political environment of Madison that was the most compelling reason for this choice.

MA:   For you?

KC:       For me and Hank. We did just what we had done when we moved from St. Louis to New York, Hank went on ahead and looked for a place to live. When we moved to Staten Island we both thought we wanted a modern, one story house, in fact the one we did live in for four years was so close to a cardboard model we had played with for a number of years, our dream house, that it was just kind of uncanny. We had loved that house and the garden, the people from whom we bought it had planted beautiful things. I suppose my love of the garden was more than Hank's because the mowing was so enormous. It was a corner lot, 200 feet frontage and 200 feet on the side, so that was a lot of grass! The neighborhood kind of required one to manicure and keep things looking nice. One of the things we wanted when we moved to Madison was what Hank called a "postage size" yard.  We both decided by that time that we wanted kind of an old fashion, two story house with a small yard and a neighborhood that felt like a neighborhood. He came on ahead and was making inquiries. He went to the school board office, the main office of the Madison schools, to inquire about elementary schools and which ones were good, etc. and while he was there someone said "if you're looking for a place to live, a member of the School Board had a house that isn't for sale but they've been talking about needing to move into something smaller and one story because of her health problems." They referred Hank to this house and to Mr. and Mrs. Samp. They hadn't told anyone, in fact they hadn't decided to sell their house, but he came here, explained and then telephoned me and said he was, because they agreed that was a good idea and why not sell it, so he telephoned me from this house, I was in Staten Island, and said he was with Mr. and Mrs. Ed Samp. I said "you may tell the Samps that I once had Thanksgiving dinner in that house as their guest." They of course didn't recognize my married name at all but one of their daughters was a sorority sister of mine and had invited me here. That made it kind of fun.

MA:   Full circle.

KC:      Yes. We agreed to buy the house for $20,000, it is now assessed at $82,000, which just showes you what inflation has done. Ed Samp told us not long after this that when he had told his friends the next day that he had just sold his house for $20,000 one of them said that he would have given him $25,000 in cash if he had knows he wanted to sell! We did really get a bargain and we have just loved this house. It isn't exactly two story, it has a full basement and a full stand up attic in addition to two full stories. It was just the right size for us.  

00:06:40

We moved in August.  I flew with the kids.  Hank had driven, I can't even remember who did what but when we moved from St. Louise to Staten Island I has spent weeks, Hank went on ahead to start his job and find us a place to live, and I had been going to the grocery store and the liquor store bringing home cardboard boxes to pack stuff and spent weeks deciding how many dish towels I did or didn't need and packed the others. The day the movers came to take care of pictures and mirrors and such things and finish up the packing I thought the moving man was going to cry. He said "Oh lady" I had 30 or 40 boxes all tied up and labeled, he said "I'll bet you spent weeks doing this!" I said "yes, I did" and he said "I could have done the whole thing in an hour if you'd just left it!" I learned that lesson! I don't intend to move very many times but when we moved from New York we cleared with the movers first what did we need to do or didn't need to do and they said "leave things on hangers in the closet, leave stuff in your dresser drawers, just don't bother to monkey with any of that stuff," so I didn't!  I've advised other people who were moving a whole household to find out if they should go through that awful ordeal so unnecessarily. In any case, we moved in here in August. It was Janet's third birthday the day we moved in. While we were unloading stuff here a neighbor from two doors down came knocking on the door, I suppose Janet had announced it was her birthday or someone had, and they brought a picnic table, put it up in our driveway and brought a birthday cake and ice cream and gathered all the little kids in the neighborhood and that was our introduction.

MA:   How lovely!

KC:      It was lovely and by the end of the week, the neighbors across the street, the Fitzgerald's, this had been arranged before we ever got here, but their backyard was the site of a neighborhood picnic of some kind so we were included in that and got to meet everyone on the block right away. It was just friendly from the very start.

MA:   When you came here, did either of you have a job?

KC:      No. We owned two house, we hadn't sold our house on Staten Island, had no job and assumed that Hank would find a job immediately, either with the University Extension, doing something similar to what he had done with the American School, or with the state service because he had had a lot of various administrative experience and had a masters degree and all of his work for a Ph.D. The state of Wisconsin had a freeze on hiring which lasted for awhile and whoever he visited with at University Extension was not, either they had no vacancies or they weren't interested in hiring him, whichever. We didn't worry about it for a little while but our meager savings began to dwindle. Hank was looking around for other things and took a series of jobs that he knew were temporary, at least they were not things he wanted to stay with forever, they were a miscellaneous three or four different things and finally he met Pat Lucy, who subsequently was elected Governor of Wisconsin in 1970 and then became Ambassador to Mexico during the Carter years, and ran for vice president with John Anderson as a third party person later on. At any rate, Pat Lucy was very active and important in the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. Hank met him in that connection but also told him that he was sure looking for a job. Pat Lucy finally said "why don't you learn the real estate racket?" He hired Hank or took him on his staff, which was a fairly sizeable staff, and there is no salary connected with that, its total commission, so the incumbents have to fish around and list properties and then also sell, if not the one they've listed sell one somebody else has listed.  He did that, in fact that became his permanent employment.

MA:   That's what he did the rest of his life?

KC:     That's right. After a few years working with the Lucy Real Estate Firm he decided he really would like to become a broker and have his own outfit or his own office at least and be self-employed because then his hours could be his own and anything he listed or sold any commission would be all his and not something he had to split with the office and he has just always like to be his own boss. I suppose that is something that is quite a human desire.

MA:   But he was able to do it.

KC:      Yes he was. He opened a small little office just over here on Regent and Allen just three blocks from here so it was convenient. One of the two extravagances of his forty years married to me at least was the time he bought a Cadillac with great guilt feelings and explanations to himself more than to me, I didn't question what he was doing, and it wasn't an exorbitantly expensive car but it was a fancier car than we had ever had. He made the point that the car was his office more than his little hole in the wall and that taking clients or prospective clients around in the car was important and that if he looked impoverished they would assume he was and that it would be good for his business. He had all of this rationale which amused me that he was explaining to himself that it was really a legitimate thing to do.

MA:   In a sense it sounds like you were his political conscience also.

KC:     Well I don't know what kind of a conscience. His other extravagance, in as much as I've mentioned that there were two, was our sound system which is now I suppose fairly antiquated but our record and cassette player and the speakers. He wanted to have something that sounded good.  

MA:   State of the art at the time.

KC:      It doesn't look expensive, I mean the equipment isn't the fanciest to look at but he wanted really good fidelity in the sound and so he did.

00:14:42

MA:     In the meanwhile, what were you doing? Did you feel an urge to become employed also then since his salary could not be counted on?

KC:      I felt a real urge to bring in some money and that seemed more urgent to me than the fact that I was restless and not doing something more intellectual or challenging. In fact, I began my return to the teaching field before Hank became a realtor, while he was still in that temporary job stage. We came here in the fall of 1960 so it was sometime in 1961, late summer of 1961 that I had a phone call from Edgewood College. Have I talked about that?

MA:   No you haven't.

KC:      The president of Edgewood College, which is just a few blocks from here, a private Catholic girls school run by the Dominican Sisters, the president, whose name was Sister Nona, telephoned me and said that somebody had told them I was in town and they were desperate for someone to teach economics at the college starting the following week, well starting in the fall term which was only about a week away. They had just heard from the nun who was supposed to come back that she wasn't for some reason. Of course I was looking forward to that fall term because Janet was enrolled in a nursery school out at the Unitarian meeting house, five afternoons a week and I would have two hours all to myself for the first time since before David was born. Really I suppose for the first time since I had Sara. I'd had these lovely visions of taking the car for two hours and whether I just went to the zoo or the arboretum or went shopping or window shopping or came home and took a nap I just had gone through every one of those things that I would be doing during those two hours.

MA:     I think most women can relate to this story!

KC:      I went over for the interview with Sister Nona, in fact I told her on the telephone that my major was political science, not economics. She I guess knew that but in any case over I went. We had a nice interview; I liked her and I was impressed with her. Then I said, toward the close of this interview, I said "I don't really know if I'm wanting to do this or not" because the class was scheduled for 10:00 in the morning, three days a week, I said "my daughter is enrolled in nursery school from 1:00 until 3:00" or whatever those hours were "so if I'm over here from 10:00 till 11:00 plus at both ends of that that means I have to get a babysitter for her"  which would more than eat up the pittance that Edgewood was offering to pay.

MA:    The time involved.

KC:      Yes. But I underestimated Sister Nona. She said "I think possibly that can be taken care of, I'll phone you in two hours" or whatever time she said. She had not only rearranged the class to coincide with Janet's nursery hours but that meant shuffling the schedules for all the students who were enrolled in that class so that they wouldn't have conflicts. She had done all of that so I taught. That was Introductory Economics and just as at Olivet College I taught courses that I had never taught before and some that I had never taken, at least I had taken economics. I had a fairly strong minor in economics so that it wasn't a totally foreign field to me.

MA:    As you look back on that teaching experience, how was it?

KC:     I loved it!

MA:    And it was all women this time which was a new experience for you.

KC:     And a Catholic institution was a new experience and a private, small school was.

MA:    What were the differences compared to what you'd experienced so far?

KC:      One of the things that I liked best, and maybe it also was the right time experience for me, was the peace and beauty of the institution itself. The physical, the art work and it was quiet. I would run Janet out to the nursery school and then had half an hour before the class began of just actual peaceful setting. That I liked very much and the students were excessively respectful of their teachers. I'm not sure, that was new to me certainly, it was a different kind of experience. They did their homework

MA:     Was this a rather expensive college to attend?

KC:      No, I don't think so. I have forgotten what the... It was very small. I was there for just one semester.  

00:20:48

During the week after I had made this arrangement with Sister Nona I had a call from someone at University Extension with a similar kind of story. The person who was to teach American Government in their night class had just sent a cable from Germany that he wasn't going to be there. Once again, someone told someone that I was in town and would probably be available. Of course American Government I had taught at Purdue as a graduate assistant here and would have been able to 

MA:   So for one you were truly in your field there.

KC:   And the timing worked out fine there because that was an evening class that met twice a week.

MA:   So you did that at the same time you were doing the Edgewood Class in Economics.

KC:     That's right. I had preparations in two different fields and that was kind of I even enjoyed the preparation that I would do here at home to take a little of the rust off and update illustrations, etc. The evening class had more male students than female.

MA:   Were they older students?

KC:     They probably were a little bit older than the Edgewood students, although there weren't any super mature students. I enjoyed that class. We did a lot of flexible, I think I did mention Shawn McGrath and his experience when we were talking about teaching styles

MA:    When he brought the article is.

KC:     Yes. I enjoyed some other things. One of the students for example came in with a guitar one evening. We didn't play and sing in class although that may have been fun to do, but I made some mention of Woody Guthrie who had been a guest in our house when we lived in Shanks Village, he had been there for a political doings. One of these young men could hardly believe this!

MA:     Well I can hardly believe it! I want to hear the story too .

KC:      I said "Oh yes, and I have a nice little sort of paperback book of Woody Guthrie's songs" I couldn't remember whether he had signed it for us or not, but this young man was so excited so I lent him the book and even just to touch it was exciting for him. That was one thing that I remember. Then I remember being a little flexible about the, in those days the University semester ended after Christmas. It started a little bit later and then there would be a short winter break, two weeks instead of the current four weeks, and then kids would have to come back after Christmas and do exams or term papers or whatever. I discussed that with the class and said I didn't think there was any hard and fast rule, I always believe in not asking about rules.

MA:    So that you won't consciously break them.

KC:     Yes. But that if we go the required number of hours in I think that's the only requirement, not when we have the hours in and I wondered if they would rather wind it up before Christmas by putting in an extra half-hour each time we met. I had figured it out, my arithmetic is great with old math, how we could get it in, and they were all just as delighted with the idea as I was, just to know that when they left for Christmas that would be out of the way! That was one little flexibility that we had. Then when the final exam was scheduled, which was the last class period, two of the people were absent and somebody in the class informed me that the father of one of them had died that day or the day before and I've forgotten what the reason was that the second one was absent.  I telephoned each one of these students, after the exam, and asked if they would like to schedule it at our mutual convenience taking the exam. In the first place they couldn't believe that anyone was offering them, they assumed that they would have to flunk the course.

MA:     And that you would call them, that you would make the overture!

KC:      Which I did. I had them come here then Hank didn't have to take care of the kids and I didn't have to hire a babysitter so they came here and took the exam on the dining room table and I made hot chocolate of coffee or something. It didn't seem a bit unusual to me to do that but it certainly was unusual from their standpoint.

MA:   Humanizing education, has that been important to you all the way through?

KC:   Sure.

00:26:14

MA:     I'm curious about Edgewood College. We look at all women institutions now and see that it gave women strength and the ability to go out into the mixed world and perhaps function a little more effectively. I realize you weren't there very long but did you see any of this? It must have been interesting to observe how women interact when there are only women vs. the coeducational institutions you've been a part of.

KC:      I don't know that I had a great opportunity to observe or certainly even to reflect but, a little bit later on, in 1968, Alverno College, which then was run and still is by the School Sisters of St. Francis in Milwaukee, invited me to be on their Board of Trustees when they moved for the first time from a Catholic to a lay Board, not totally nuns, etc. I was elected by the rest of the Board to be chair of the Board, actually by default. (I may have told you that story—I'll stick the story in now quickly and say that I did have much more observation opportunities at Alverno because I spent quite a bit of time there during those four years when I chaired the Board. Gerda Learner is familiar with Alverno and with the president there Sister Joelle Reed.) When this lay Board met for the first time to elect officers we had some kind of discussion.The first thing that we talked about was that in as much as this was a women's college and we wanted to continue to purvey that image that probably the chair of the Board should be a woman so people agreed on that. Then there were quite a few men on the Board of Trustees in fact their current Board I think has many more men than women on the Board of Trustees. The next criterion was that because they were moving to a lay Board instead of having an institution run by nuns, they thought it would be good to have the chair of the Board be a lay person. Well that right away, if it was going to be a female and a lay person dwindled it down to two of us. Then the third though that people put forth was that this person either live in Milwaukee or close enough to put a lot of time in during the early years. The other woman lived in Ohio and I lived in Madison. As I say, by the process of elimination if not by default.

MA:   You were on the Board for four years?

KC:      Yes. I chaired it all four years. When I was first invited by the outgoing president, St. Augustine, who was getting on in years and who in fact retired just very shortly establishing this new Board. In fact, at our first meeting, she announced that she would retire so that our first order of business would be to find a new president for the college. I regard one of my primary contributions to the women's movement from my role of Chair of the Board I absolutely insisted that Sister Joelle Reed take the presidency of the college, almost over her dead body, but certainly over her very firm objections that she wasn't the person for it. After we looked at the finances of the institution we knew that we couldn't afford somebody from the outside that we would have to pay a salary and provide living and a car and all of these things. We didn't get much argument from the nuns on that score, that for starters at least we would have to, but the question of which one and so Frank Zeidler who had been the socialist mayor of Milwaukee and I were the two who did most of the interviewing and talking with, you know kind of factions or some who were more progressive than others.

MA:   What were you looking for specifically?

KC:      I don't know that I had ever, just somebody who could pull the thing together, someone who was terribly bright and energetic and the fact that I knew you see Sister Joelle and Sister Austin Dougherty had been on the First National Board of NOW. That's where we got really acquainted, that was in 1966, and that probably accounted for my being invited to be on this Board.

MA:     You knew then that she was a progressive woman.

KC:      Yes. I think she was afraid that some of the more conservative nuns might not be as totally cooperative and they needed everything. Right now that institution has received national and international plaudits as being the best undergraduate teaching institution, not only the best in the midwest, a Carnegie study, I think that's the one, has listed, evaluated and ranked what they regarded the five top institutions in the country for undergraduated teaching in this order, Harvard, Chicago, Alverno, and one of the schools in the New York State system maybe Brooklyn or something and then I've forgotten the fifth—maybe it's one in North or South Carolina. They've had all kinds of and it's under the leadership of not only Sister Joelle

MA:   Is she still president?

KC:     Oh yes, twenty years later. So I did have opportunities to observe first hand, and then I read a lot about, or used to, about the products of [unclear].

00:32:59

MA:   What do you think, that was the question, what happens for women in that environment do you think in contrast to coed institutions?

KC:    I think when it's a really first rate institution which is conscious of what they can do for women, and I don't know if this is true of all single sex institutions, that there is the total opportunity for women not to be second class in any sense and to develop a confidence and an expertise in a range of things.

MA:   Do you think it has any negative affects?

KC:      I don't know whether the unreality, I suppose for some individuals it may, who may suffer some reality when they get into the outer world but I think a well run institution anticipates that and wards it off, having opportunities for young women to experience the real world while they are in school.

MA:    That's what you mean by the institution having a conscious kind of direction.

KC:      And certainly the evidence of women who have achieved a lot of things from first rate institutions bears out a lot of the pluses. I felt very badly during that period when the because a lot of the men's institutions didn't want to discriminate and keep out women and they became two sex or integrated institutions and a lot of the women's institutions did the same thing. I felt the circumstances were totally different. Women were kept out of the men's institutions which is why they had to start their own institutions to start with. I once made a presentation at the National Association of Governing Boards of Institutions of Higher Learning on the subject of the role of single sex institutions for women. I can remember saying that I remembered the words of some political scientist, whose name escapes me at this instance but his words do not escape me, who said that "as a national policy isolation was not a policy, it was a predicament". I realize that women's single sex institutions were a predicament to begin with but then had become a policy. Anyway, I didn't see any reason why women's colleges to open up to men. I know Alverno College had a couple of suits brought against them by men who wanted to enroll in their nursing program.  I can't remember if they let them in or had to go to court or what.

00:36:37

MA:   But it is still a women only institution?

KC:    Yes. They have a lot of men on the faculty and men on the Board of Trustees but it is a school for women.  They have developed a whole system of competency evaluation and it also is an acknowledged and admittedly feminist institution. In those very early days the first thing they knew they had to do was raise the consciousness of the faculty. I sat in on some of, in fact I helped to plan some of the very early faculty training, we didn't call them consciousness raising sessions, but they still continue to go on at a much more sophisticated level so that every faculty person and every course of study not only knows this competence, no matter what kind of a class a student is enrolled in it is expected that they learn how to analyze and question and to be articulate in writing as well as speaking. Each incoming freshman does a video tape of herself making a presentation and then at least one a year, maybe beginning and ending of every year they are there, then they critique themselves and have others help with the critiquing just to see how they can stand in front of somebody and do something.

MA:   And their competency is evaluated vis-a-vie what they came in with in a sense.

KC:      I suppose, but that wouldn't be universally so. Some improvemnt would be great but I think they have to be able to do more than just improve. There is a bottom line below which they can't fall.

MA:   How were your students at Edgewood College? Do you remember, was it a good class?

KC:    It was alright, I don't remember that it was anything spectacular.

MA:   Did you ever have the urge to teach at Alverno College?  Would you have liked that?

KC:      I think I might have liked it. In fact, I had the urge to become a School Sister of St. Francis! One part of me used to envy that life, the single mindedness of not having to be deflected with other kinds of responsibilities.

MA:   The solitude of it.

KC:    I don't witness a lot of solitude down there but I sure witness a lot of serious, thoughtful, inventive kinds things.  Hard work! They work very hard. I stayed at Edgewood College only one semester because that was the spring of 1962 that I met Martha Peterson and asked her what the University of Wisconsin was doing in continuing education for women.

00:40:23

            I forgot to even mention that before I began teaching over at Edgewood and even during that period, some of the women in the neighborhood were earning a little money by, across the street from me lived a family named Trump and he had something to do with SAT or some testing of some kind and so he and his wife employed some of the neighborhood women to do some, I don't know if it was grading or clerical stuff and so when I moved into the neighborhood the women asked me to join them, which I did, and earned a few bucks and it was a sociable kind of way. I'm remembering this now because I've had an opportunity to see Justice Shirley Abrahamson from the Supreme Court and during that period she was putting together a volume in her role in the Law School, as a Professor of Law, she was sending to each of the fifty states and trying to get copies of their state constitution. Incidentally, lots of states didn't have in one place as one document.

MA:    Because there had been so many amendments and things?

KC:     Yes, and then that would be filed someplace else and nobody ever put it together so that was a fascinating project. She read a little item in the paper about this women at home work group here on Eaton Ridge.

MA:   And you worked as a group together?

KC:      Yes, sometimes two and two. What we did didn't require or couldn't use more than two people on a piece of paper, however, four or six of us were involved in it. So Shirley Abrahamson thought this might be a good group to proofread what she was doing with these state constitutions. She would tote the stuff down and I kind of became the primary proofread I guess and it wasn't long before I was really doing some editing as well as proofreading because I would find inconsistencies from one place to another. I was editing less of Shirley's work than whatever had come from a state that didn't have their act together. It was fascinating and especially fascinating for me as a political scientist to see some of the ancient history in state constitutions.

MA:   Did you think about women as you were looking at this?

KC:      I couldn't avoid thinking about women!  The prolog or the introduction to quite a few state constitutions initially had said citizenship is not available to however they phrased it –to slaves, prisoners, idiots, women and –we were right among this great group of incompetents who couldn't be citizens. More states had that kind of prohibition that almost that didn't, I don't know what the numbers were.

MA:   Was that for you what Gloria Steinham calls a "click"?

KC:    I don't know if it really was but

MA:   Did you have knowledge of this prior to this time?

KC:     I knew of course that women were not citizens in the...

MA:    What puzzles me is that you personally don't appear to have experienced that kind of,  so far what you've told me about your life I don't see you acknowledging discrimination.  Do you know what I'm talking about?

KC:      I don't think that was a "click" for me but every time I've heard women put together or lumped together, the state protective legislation that applied to women and minors, I used to gag when I'd have to say women and minors because it is such a derogatory thought.  

MA:   Part of an infantile group.

KC:   Sure.

00:45:04

MA:     It sounds to me that what I am hearing is an intellectual awareness always even if you personally didn't experience this.

KC:      I remember now the reason I stopped teaching at Edgewood College was that I had by the time second semester was due Martha Peterson had be head up this project on the Madison campus in Continuing Education for Women, for mature women. I remember saying this to Sister Nona when I had to not accept her request to stay there for a second semester. I told her I was going to start this and she said "Well I think it's just as important for you to continue the education of immature women here at Edgewood!" But of course I didn't do that.

00:45:58

MA:     Well, let’s hop back to the state constitutions for a minute. You were editing those and proofreading, what came of it all?

KC:      Well, this group—I think I learned from a couple of people in the University Extension about the continuing education for women, which turned out to be a movement

[break in recording]

There was publicity in the local paper about this gang of women on Eaton Ridge, it just made an interesting feature. They took photographs of our kids hanging around while we were doing this work. A couple of people at the university and University Extension read this and though aha here are some possible people to do things.  I had a conversation then with I think it was Ted Shannon and Harold Motross whom I had not really met so they were simply names to me and mentioned the Minnesota Plan and would I have any interest. I didn't know if I had any interest and I particularly have any interest in University Extension at the time so I didn't pursue that with them but I did go to a Mortarboard breakfast which is an annual event on the Madison campus. I had been president of the Mortarboard Chapter my senior year as an undergraduate so I was invited to go and thought I would. Martha Peterson was the Dean of Women on the campus at the time; she subsequently became president of Iron College and of Beloit College and is not retired. She was at this Mortarboard breakfast so I introduced myself to her and said I would love to talk to her about the Minnesota Plan and asked what the University of Wisconsin was doing that might be related to that.

MA:   What is the Minnesota Plan?

KC:     That was the name they gave their continuing education for women program. I don't know if it still uses that title or not but that’s what it as known as for a long time. Virginia Senders was the woman who headed it up at the beginning in any case. Martha Peterson hadn't heard of the Minnesota Plan and asked me to come into her office in a week or so and tell her what I knew about it at least. From that time on, all summer long, I was kind of a volunteer in Martha Peterson's office. She would have staff meetings once a week or every other week or something and ask me to come and sit in on the staff meetings while we kicked around the notion of whether Wisconsin ought to be doing anything for mature women.  

00:49:24

The whole idea of continuing education for mature women seemed an absolute natural to me.  Again, I was not conscious that I knew all kinds of women whose talents were not being used. This was before Betty Friedan's book came out, but I knew how my own uneasiness or restlessness would develop over those time periods that I have already mentioned.

MA:   The Elizabeth Katie Stanton Syndrome.

KC:      It was getting close to fall and I just went at the invitation of the Dean of Women to these staff meetings and we talked a lot about how to decide what to do or if to do anything. We decided to have a survey of people in the Madison area.

MA:   Of older women?

KC:     Yes, and see how much interest there might be and what kind of interest. We didn't have time to do a real     we put together a very good questionnaire and we sent it to, and this is a reflection of the times--1961, to the wives of university faculty, the wives of lawyers and the wives of doctors. The mailing lists were available.  These were largely educated people who might have an affinity toward something the university was doing. A very elitest kind of initial outreach. We got a very high return for any kind of a questionnaire. Some of us realized it was high because some of these women might have thought it would reflect badly on their husband if they didn't send it back in. Whether that was true or not, we got an enormous return of questionnaires. We made one mistake on the questionnaire, as a final question we said "Would you be willing to have an individual interview?" because we thought we might want to follow up and have a face-to-face with some of these people.  Four hundred said yes! The phone began to ring "When can I have my appointment for an individual interview?  I'm dying to be doing something!" Of course nobody was set up to conduct any interviews. So it was very soon we decided we couldn't do individual interviews with hundreds of people.

MA:   How many, were there two of you doing this at this point?

KC:      Oh no –Martha Peterson had a whole staff in the Dean of Women's office, Pat                 , Debbie Townsend, Ann Topum, Ann Rogers and there were a couple of others.

00:52:38

MA:   So seven or either people. What did you do?

KC:      We thought that because we can't really, and the other people on the staff had full-time responsibilities in the office, and we would have just a special part of a staff meeting to talk about this each time, decided that maybe we should have a conference and invite all the people who sent back their questionnaires and probably invite Virginia Centers to come from Minneapolis and tell us what they were doing there and how they were doing it.  So several of us, I went along with Martha and I don't remember who else, to visit with Fred Harvey Harrington who was the president of the university at the time and tell him what we were up to and what we wanted to do about the conference, and to ask if we could have a few hundred dollars to put on the conference. The answer was yes to all of that and he sounded quite interested in it. As we were leaving, walking down the hall he yelled "Say Martha, have you got somebody on this fulltime now?" She said, "I'll take care of that." That was not one of the things we went to request at all but it was a wonderful 

MA:    So he was saying he would finance a fulltime position to be working on     

KC:    Well at least to draft a plan and to 

MA:    Wonderful! The universities were not hurting for enrollment at this time –now they are more so they are looking to and kind innovative program, or many are. As I recall, enrollment was really up in 1961, so I'm thinking that it was simply that it was a good idea and he was responding to a good idea.

KC:   Yes, he was responding and I have subsequently come to know that he has a lot of progressive inclinations.  I really didn't know much about him then, I don't know that I know a lot about him.

00:54:58

MA:   Did you have the conference?

KC:     We not only had the conference but I came home from that day and said to Hank, told him what had just happened and I said "Oh boy, I sure wish Martha would ask me to be the one to do this." I would have been terribly disappointed if she hadn't. That evening she called me and asked would I be willing to undertake this.  It wasn't a fulltime, long-range thing but to develop a plan for the university, I think it was a five month appointment. I said "I'll have to think about it" and hung up the phone and told Hank what the conversation was and he said "What do you mean, you have to think about it?" I said, "Well if Janet were just in kindergarten now, then she'd be taken care of for half the day and we would only have to worry about the other half."  He said, "This isn't next year, Janet is not in kindergarten, the job is now, it's tailor made for you, call Martha back and tell her you've thought it over now!" 

MA:   Was it just a given that Hank would take up the slack with the kids if you weren't able to?

KC:    No I don't think that it was totally, I mean he said we would work it out.

MA:   One way or another, whether it was a babysitter or Hank.

KC:     We did and of course he did schedule his real estate work always, that was one of the reasons that he really wanted to have his own office so that he could be here when I on a daily basis he would be here when the kids came in from school in the afternoon and then schedule appointments for 5:00 and later when I would be back.

MA:     So you didn't feel guilt? Is that what I'm hearing that because of his response, it's very common I think for women to feel quilty about what they're leaving behind, and his response certainly must have not allowed that to happen.

KC:      He had always been a participating parent with the kids and a homemaker. We did cooking together, we did have somewhat of a division of labor, I don't know if one could say it was along gender lines, but he was good at mean and gravy and I was good at salads and desserts when we had them so that's kind of the way our cooking got divided. From the moment our first infant came home from the hospital he was more comfortable about changing diapers and bathing a tiny little baby, I was not only all thumbs but so afraid that I would break the baby or whatever. Even though he didn't know anymore about it than I did he was more of a risk taker perhaps, but in any case it needed to be done and I don't know if he was as deft as I was at it but at least he was willing.

MA:   That is very significant.

KC:     Over the years he also was better.... I've always been a very poor nurse. I'm excellent with the kids when they're recovering, I mean I'm wonderful about pulling shades down or up, bringing them a cold drink or rubbing backs, but if they're in pain or have a wound then I'm, if necessary, if I'm the only one around then I can and do cope with it but the kids learned very young that if we were both there to go to Hank for that kind of emergency care. Of course, I made the most of that, if any of the kids would wake up in the night with a stomach ache or feeling sick to their stomach they would call "daddy, daddy" and I would let daddy go and I'd be so glad they were calling for him. It was always a partnership in all kinds ways.

00:59:42

MA:     So you accepted then without guilt the Continuing     

KC:      Well I can't say I was guilt free but I did learn fairly well that partly I had to do what I was telling women to do when I began to—We had the conference and then I drew up a plan and then I was put on the faculty and I opted for three-quarter time instead of full time so that I could leave early if I needed to. I got into some very bad habits of bringing work home so I put three-quarter time in in the office and then another three quarters at home.

MA:   Which was volunteer time of course.

KC:    Right. Martha Peters was willing to do some flexible things. A lot of employers were not, in fact to this day a lot of them are not, but she hired Ruth Doyle who was a wonderful woman and had been in the state legislature and on the School Board and many other things and was married to Federal Judge Jim Doyle who died this year.  She hired Ruth and me at the same time as an experiment, married women with children who wanted somewhat flexible hours. The other people on her staff none of the others were married. The experiment worked out quite well, in fact I think we brought not only a little maturity but another dimension to the job. Martha was very up-front and explicit with us that some days you aren't worth a damned, your head is somewhere else or you have other responsibilites, go and do what it is. Then she urged her whole staff to just mark off on their calendar at least half a day every week to just go to the library to stay current with journals and publications which you never would get to read if you stayed in the office all the time.

MA:   What a brilliant administrator!

KC:      Yes. She was a firm taskmaster and she still is. One time I didn't realize there was a deadline for something we were to take up to E. B. Fred, who was the Emeritus President of the university, the one whose name we finally cajoled into letting us use, and she was ready to go and asked me where it was. I said, "I have a draft that hasn't been typed" and she said, "Well that won't do me any good!" and she stomped off up to E. B. Fred. That was the only time that I was ever late and if I had known when she wanted it, it would have been on her desk.

01:02:53

MA:    What would you tell the women? You made what I think is a very interesting comment, that you kind of had to force yourself to live up to the ideals you would tell the returning adult women.

KC:      After we had made some kind of a plan then I actually did work full time, I can't remember if it was full, but what I did for a couple of years was to interview individual women who were thinking of making some change, either go back to school, update or refresh or take a job. There was nothing in my job description that made me an employment agent but I counted one time, while I was still doing that kind of individual interviewing, 300 women in the Madison community were employed at jobs they got through my office! The service was to the employer as much as to the individual woman. But sometimes I would urge the women to think through the range of skills and interests that they had and create a job.

MA:   You were years ahead of "What Color is Your Parachute" you should have written that book!

KC:      Some of the things that I learned and tried to do myself and tell others are simple-minded things such there are only 24 hours in a day even for women and that when you add a new activity that means you have to take away something and it can either be sleep or...We made very conscious decisions in our household of what things we would forgo and I think that I mentioned before that I gave up playing golf. I had looked forward to that as one thing I would be able to afford to do when we came back to Madison.

MA:   You mentioned that you are a little bit sorry that you gave up some of the pleasures. What else was there to give up, Kay, when you look back on it?

KC:      I don't know. I've always been kind of a meticulous housekeeper, not neurotic, but I like things neat and tidy.  As soon as we could afford a cleaning lady that was helpful. I wanted some time with the kids and I would always do something on the weekends during those years that the kids were all at home and I was working fulltime. I have wonderful neighbors on this block, two of whom are registered nurses and were at home with their own young children and several are teachers and right now there are four women Ph.D.s in a row here and we had another one across the street who has now gone back to Finland.

MA:   What an educated neighborhood!

KC:      It is, with the exception of one family that is unbelievable across the street now, they are all wonderful, friendly, civilized, not intrusive but helpful. Anyway, these several mothers on the block, including the two nurses and a couple of the teachers, individually would come to me and say "any time you can't get home at noon" (I would come home to be home at lunchtime which was a drag) "just have the kids stop in here." A few times I would call and take advantage of that and also, all three of my children knew that they were welcome at any of these particular houses.

MA:   What a nice community you had.

KC:      Right. Then I would feel not, I suppose I felt a little guilty but these people volunteered this to me, these three or four women, "You're doing things for women and this is something we can do for you." What I would do then on weekends and this was not totally altruistic, it was self serving as well because it was something that I wanted to do anyway, but I would load up the car with neighborhood kids whose mothers would be these same women home with little one, and we'd go to the zoo or the arboretum or do some, especially outdoor kind of activity because I didn't get out during the rest of the week. That was a way of thanking them for doing things during the week and it was nice for the kids too.

01:07:55

MA:    When you would interview these individual women, how would you handle the woman who said "oh but my husband just won't help" or "my husband doesn't want me to go back to school" you must have encountered those sorts of things

KC:      All the time, in fact I encountered some of the husbands. We used to be invited to quite a few parties in Madison. After Hank got Parkinson's Disease it wasn't long before he didn't want to have anybody here and he didn't want to go anywhere, so our social life kind of dwindled to nothing much. Before that all happened and we did go to I always hated to go to some of these parties because one man after another would corner me and say "What are you doing to my wife?  How come she's "It was during that period when they weren't used to the idea and when it was a reflection on their own ability either to keep their wife happy or to provide a proper income. Somehow, some of the women were looked on as freaks, I mean yeah.

MA:    I understand.

KC:      So I had a lot of explaining to do and it seemed to me that every social event I was working, either the husbands or else the wife would "I've been meaning to come in and see you because I'm interested in doing this."

MA:     Would you give advice? How did you handle delicate situations where you could clearly see that there was a situation of very obvious oppression but how could you say "what you really need to do is"?

KC:      I don't know that I ever gave direct advice to anybody. It was my own perception that men who were upset by this continuing education weren't MCP's or weren't necessarily deliberate oppressors or bastards but were people who needed some understanding and some information and needed to be able to take pride in what their wife was wanting to do.

MA:     So you must have attempted to foster that somehow.

KC:     Yes, and let this guy know what a wonderful wife he had and what a contribution she could make or how much more interesting their table conversation could be if she had done something besides talk with preschoolers all day long and that a lot of other people were finding this to be the case.

MA:    Did you get positive responses?

KC:     Not necessarily right off the bat, especially after they had had the experience for awhile of having their wife be in school or back on a job or whatever.

01:11:24

MA:    How did this change the women?  Did you see dramatic changes in the women that you worked with?

KC:     Sure, a lot of them. Over the years I've always had the great good fortune to be able to define my own job.  When I would get tired of doing something I would find a rationale for either having somebody else do it or discontinue doing it or change the format. After I got a little bit tired of a lot of individual interviews, although no two of them were ever alike, somebody in Extension in fact, I was not in Extension, I was on the Madison campus at this time, until 1965, when there was one of the many reorganizations of stuff.  Somebody, a woman named Mary Farrell who has long since been retired from University Extension, suggested wouldn't it be good to have an evening class for some of these mature women under the auspices of Extension. I thought that was great!  We could siphon off a lot of these what really want an hour interview. The course didn't have a very inventive title, I think it was "Today's Woman in Tomorrow's World" which had been the title of some publication of the Women's Bureau that the Labor Department put out. We designed and did this in collaboration with Martha Peterson and her staff. I then administered the course and was there to. We brought in experts and among other things we, we had a four week session, one night a week for a four week period in the summertime, had women do one little library assignment to get acquainted with the library and a little writing assignment to refresh their writing and we had them write how their life today is different and in what respects than their grandmothers life at that age would have been. That was a real consciousness and fun for them to do. We brought in people from all the other resources in the community, MATC, secretarial school, nursing schools, and Edgewood College so that the educational opportunities in addition to the university would be available. We had a couple of excellent counselors there and if people wanted to pay an extra $10 they could sign up for an individual counseling session with a bona fide counselor and take an aptitude test and get the scores and interpretation and I don't remember everything else.

MA:   How did that all turn out? Was it successful?

KC:     We had something like a 150 enrolled the first year. They came from Appleton, they came from LaCrosse, we had no idea how many people

MA:   That's extraordinary!

KC:      You asked me, and this is a long way to get back to what you asked me, did I notice any remarkable 

MA:     Oh yes

KC:      I still hear from women who came to one of those, we did that three summers in a row, whose lives were changed. That just gave them the spur that's all, it was just what they needed at a time when they needed it. It's kind of fun.

01:15:13

MA:    Did you see the kinds of dramatic changes that some of the men were worried about for example that the woman would discover another world out there, decide that marriage really was not what she wanted and leave it?

KC:     Yes, there were occasions when that happened. I remember one man, whom I will not name but whose name I know, phoned me here at home one evening. He was so frustrated and so furious that he didn't know what else to do but to call me and bawl me out for leading his wife down this primrose path! The only part of this conversation that I remember is that their refrigerator hadn't been defrosted in months and it was my fault!  I wanted to tell him over the phone how to go about doing that and it wasn't a chore that only a female could perform.  I didn't get a lot of anger that was poured out directly on me.

MA:    And like all change, people respond differently and, depending on what you need at the time how significant
 
KC:     One woman, I had actually forgotten she had ever been in that summer course and then I guess had been in my office also, from Green Bay I guess, she was widowed or divorced I don't remember which but she was a single parent with I think five little kids and wondering whether she ought I don't know. Anyway, she did go back to teaching Home Economics and somehow I had a hand in whatever decision she made or at least proposing options on how she can cope with the kids and whatever else. I would have never known anything about this but maybe two or three years ago, no more than that, I received a letter from a female who identified herself as the daughter of this woman. They were going to have a special birthday, it was around Christmas time but they were going to have a... I know, the youngest of these kids had just graduated from college and they wanted to do something special for their mother and asked if I would write a letter for them to include along with the gifts they were giving her because she held me responsible for her ability to do that.

01:18:16

MA:     How empowering! That's what you were doing, it seems to me, you were empowering women at a time when most parts of society were saying your role is in the home and that should make you perfectly happy, you were saying there are other options and here are the alternatives for going about doing them.

KC:     And of course there was nothing. That's what was happening at other institutions. There was nothing so special, I mean we handled it in different ways here. We had our inspiration from Minnesota and Sara Lawrence and Rutgers retraining in math and then of course the whole national. All the institutions that were providing something would meet together and the National Association of Deans and Women's Counselors were very much a part of that whole movement and effort.

01:19:15

MA:     I'm wondering how the experience changed you. It seems to me that it had to have in some way to so closely be viewing all of these lives coming before you.

KC:      I've told this many times to people that our second conference that we had (this may not sound as though I'm responding to your question but in my usual roundabout way) our second annual conference, after this first one with Virginia Center, was one on Professional Opportunities for Women. We structured a day or two days (it was the day John Glenn orbited the earth –we had to recess long enough for people to run to the TV and watch this happen) we invited Esther Peterson who was then the Director of the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department to be our keynot speaker. I remember asking Fred Harvey Harrington if we could have enough money to bring her and he said "how are you going to invite her?" I said "I'll write her a letter." Well you don't invite important people by a letter."

01:20:37 

End of interview session 7

Eighth Interview Session (November 10, 1987): Tape 8

00:00:11

MA:    Kaye, lets continue from where we were last week

KC:     When we were interrupted by Jean and Burt Boyer. I can throw their names in because Jean Boyer is one of Wisconsin's outstanding feminists and has been since our first statewide conference here and the founding of NOW, etc., etc. I was telling about the second statewide conference and bringing Esther Peterson here. I guess I was actually telling about Harrington saying, "You get on a plane and go to Washington and ask in person!" Which I did.  I had never known that was the way the higher echelons operated, but I was happy to do it. In any case, Esther Peterson agreed to come with a little string attached, with a proviso that we assemble, while she was here, the statewide chairs of women's organizations in Wisconsin so that she could tell us about President Kennedy's Commission on the Status of Women and ask the assembled group what they would think of having a state level Commission on the Status of Women. This was all a brand new idea; to me it was brand new.  I knew that the President's Commission existed and was meeting, but I really didn't know very much about what they were doing and had no notion of a statewide commission. We arranged the special breakfast meeting and about 50 state heads of women's organizations came and were delighted to have an opportunity to come. One of the local artists, a woman named Annaliese Steppat, was so delighted with the idea that she arranged table decorations.  She made little straw flower bouquets in little vases which was a nice touch.  

00:02:22

When Esther Peterson asked the question, "Did we think a comparable state-level Commission on the Status of Women, modeled after the Kennedy Commission, would be a good idea?" not only was there unanimous approval on the part of everybody, but for me, coming out of the experience of this continuing education, it came as a "gift from on high" because throughout this experience of interviewing a lot of individual women and feeling, as I often said to my family, as though I'd played a giant game of "Captain May I." It seemed almost pathetic to me that competent, able women, in what I've always called their best years of their life (that's whatever age I happen to be), would have to say "Is it alright for me to take some of the family money for my own education?" or "Is it alright that I don't spend full time at home and that I think about a job or utilizing my professional trainings" or whatever, and then I would say, "Yes it's alright." Then they would be greatly relieved and go out and do it. Even before Esther Peterson came here, I had already written a memo to Martha Peterson, who was my boss and the Dean of Women here at the time, saying, "I wonder if we are doing a disservice to all of these women, to encourage them to develop their abilities and to broaden their horizons and to add more gratifying things to their life when the outer world is so inhospitable to them?" When the job discrimination, educational discrimination, maltreatment --not physical abuse but putting down of women wherever they turn, no childcare and even some...I wasn't at that time very much aware of how the law discriminated against women, it didn't take too long to begin to find that out. In any case, I realized that if there were a state-sponsored Commission on the Status of Women, we could look into all aspects of public policy and of private practice as well, and look at and make recommendations and do something about areas of life that the university wasn't capable -- wasn't within the purview of the university to do something about.  For me, this was the greatest idea, not only since high-button shoes, but the best thing that could happen.

00:05:23

It wasn't very long then after...Your question was "did this experience change me?" and the answer is, it certainly did!  It not only changed my life, it has subsequently become my life! Not long after that meeting, in fact the meeting with Esther Peterson was in February of that year and I believe it was in March that three of us, Geraldine Hinkle, who at the time and for many years was secretary and administrative aide to Ed Young who was head of the Economics Deparatment and later became president of the University, or was he simply chancellor of the Madison campus?—well, one or t'other. Geraldine Hinkle was at the time the State President of BPW (Business and Professional Women). Another person who had been at our conference was Marguerite Gilmore from Chicago, who headed the regional office of the Women's Bureau of the U.S. Labor Department.  The three of us conferred and then went as a group to visit our governor, who was John Reynolds, with the proposition that we have a State Governor's Commission on the Status of Women. He was immediately supportive of the idea, I think in part because he was a devote of Eleanor Roosevelt and she was the official chair of the Kennedy Commission, and in part I think it was just his view. He was a progressive person and he agreed immediately to name a commission for Wisconsin. We suggested to him –and I felt very strongly about this -- that he not name a commission immediately, but that we first have a statewide conference on the status of women to be widely advertised so that we could compare the findings of the Kennedy Commission with the circumstances in Wisconsin and so that other leadership could emerge. We now had a list of the state presidents of various organizations, but we didn't know what other kinds of people might be out there. I certainly had met enough in the continuing education thing to know that there was all kinds of interest and talent and need all over the place. So we urged him not to name a commission immediately but to call a conference.  

00:08:14

In July he issued a press release calling for a conference on the status of women. He asked me to chair a planning committee and to chair the conference, which I was happy to do.

MA:   What year is this, 1962 or 1961?

KC:    This is 1963. It was in 1962 that we had our first Continuing Education Conference with Virginia Centers. In February of 1963 the Professional Opportunities and in July of 1963 Governor Reynolds issued the press release. We set the date, I must have done this later, long after I had assembled the Planning Committee, for November 23 or 24, a two-day conference. We really had a marvelous Planning Committee. I've written up—made a presentation a year ago to the Women's Studies so if you're interested in more detail of the Planning Committee which was so wonderfully broadly representative with men and well as women, with people who had, if not prestige, credibility in whatever constituency they represented. We had people from a number of educational institutions, from state agencies, from private employment people in labor, men and women, and I'm sure that the seriousness with which the press and the general public in Wisconsin took that conference and the planning for it had a lot to do with the quality of people who were on that planning committee. I make a point of this because while it is not unusual for conference planners to do exactly that, it was about to become very unusual in the women's movement to not restrict the planners to only females and not to pick people who had any relationship to the establishment as though there was something...as though there was something improper about doing that.

MA:   So that you had a broad spectrum, a representative spectrum from the population rather than a handful of radical feminists?

KC:    Right. In fact the very notion of radical feminist hardly, well it was a little bit around by then but remember that this was 1963. It was before the Feminine Mystique came out, before the American Women, the report of the Kennedy Commission, came out and three years before NOW was formed.

MA:   So it wouldn't have been realistic. What was a radical women then? Who would have been the most radical elements that you would have included?

KC:    I suppose maybe ....

00:11:23

MA:   Perhaps you were the most radical women?

KC:   I was certainly depicted as such, which always struck me as a laugh.

MA:   I'm trying to get a picture of it though but I think I'm beginning to see.

KC:   We didn't even use the word discrimination and oppression would be way out! It was not long after that that the pejorative "women's libber" came into being, but so far it hadn't. In Wisconsin we were never subject in the press, on TV or on radio or print, to ridicule. When our commission was finally put together and named by the governor, which was the following May of 1964, we went to the first National Conference of Commissions on the Status of Women. We were then the 25th State Commission to be formed. The chair of each commission made a brief presentation at that first conference in 1964. The woman from North Carolina, who was a Women's Historian, Anne Firor Scott, chaired, at the time, the North Carolina Commission. She and I were the only two chairs who didn't spend most of our time talking about how they were being ridiculed in the press, or given the total silent treatment. I think maybe we had a more enlightened press in Wisconsin and we have a progressive tradition in this state, but also the circumstances under which this whole thing came into being in our state was a different experience.  

00:13:22

We set this first conference for November and the day that people were assembling and coming not only from all over the state but quite a few from out-of-state, main speakers, was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. It was just six weeks after the report "American Women" was presented to the president. In fact, we had deliberately scheduled our meeting long enough after that report was to be issued so that we could make use of it in our meeting. After a series of frantic phone calls to the governor and here and there, we decided to cancel and postpone the conference. With over 300 people registered and meals ready to serve and everything.  I'm sure that similar cancellations of other events took place all over the United States that day and that weekend.  In fact, I had to spend the rest of the day in the Wisconsin Center to greet people as they arrived and tell them what we were doing and how we were doing it. I spent the evening there with out-of-town folks from Washington and other places. We sat together kind of in mourning and watched Lyndon Johnson being sworn in at the airport by Judge Sara Hughes. I wanted to be home with my own family because I knew how they would be feeling about it, but I felt an obligation to do what I did. We finally set a new date and reconvened the conference the last day of January and the first day of February, 1964. Every speaker and discussion leader and I think every person who had enrolled previously as participants actually came. You have been in northern climates long enough to know what happened the end of January and in February, but in spite of weather, people did come.  

00:15:34

We were so glad to have had that conference before an official designation of a Commission, even though it made us only 25th instead of an earlier number. By the time our Commission was named we were, what I often call "light years ahead" of the other states that had to start from scratch. We had a very good notion of what the burning issues were in the state; how we wanted to divide up the subcommittees of the Commission; what were key areas of concern; and also who were some of the people in this state who could give terrific leadership in those subject areas. We didn't have so much trial-and-error. We really had a good beginning and we had wonderful publicity from our conference so that we weren't a total strange creature.

MA:   You had a plan, a very clear plan.

KC:   That's right.

MA:   What did you do at the conference to highlight the issues, to find out what the people were concerned about?

KC:   The Planning Committee itself had some notions that we wanted to discuss; education, employment, health, home and family. We used a great many of the outline things from the President's Commission and then we made use of our own experience by having met with women. We had the top people in the state heading up the discussion groups in whatever these areas of concern were.

00:17:20

MA:  Were there any new areas of concern that emerged as a result of the conference?

KC:   There probably were. I would have to look at the report. I have that also.

MA:   Do you have the ones with the pictures on the cover?

KC:  Yes.

MA:   I imagine that the effect of the conference though was to reaffirm that the direction in which you were going was appropriate.

KC:  I suppose. We hadn't started to go yet, of course.

MA:   But your goals. Were there people at the conference who you would not have thought to draw in? Were there constituencies that you became more familiar with as a result of this?

KC:   Yes, and I don't know if it was precisely the result of the first conference –a lot of this kind of blends together.  I hadn't really thought a lot about nurses and social workers. I am sure there were a great many things that I hadn't thought about, certainly a lot of the legal inequities. In fact, one of the books that I had made use of in my continuing education office was a book by a sociologist from Iowa, which I have someplace on my shelf now, on the potential of women, filled with a lot of wonderful information and then a statement in it which said, "Of course women have legal equality in the United States" and I thought how –I mean I accepted that when I first read the book. It was very gradually over the years that we uncovered more and more of the inequities in our own state law and also at the federal level. We had Martha Griffiths come from Washington or Michigan, wherever she came from, she was in the Congress at the time, to talk about federal law and the way in which it –that was a couple of years later though of course. I was in my own office, my university office, a woman came in one day, just didn't know where else to turn, I think this was after we had a Commission on the Status of Women, her son had reached the age of 16 and her husband was a faculty man, was on a field trip down in the jungles of Brazil. Her son wanted to get his driver’s license so he had already promised his friends that he would drive to the senior prom because he would have his license by then. She went with him to get his license and was told that only fathers can accompany children, sons or daughters. She explained that the father was off and unavailable by any means of communication. Well, did she have power of attorney? Well no. It hadn't dawned on her to get power of attorney. So, this kid wasn't able to get his driver’s license. The same week that this event took place in her life her washing machine went on the fritz and she had the man come to make the repair.  It needed a new motor and was going to be expensive and she said "That's fine, just charge it." (These were Madison residents in good economic standings.) "Well, I'm sorry, we can't do that. We need your husband to sign," and she went through the same song and dance. She had to go without a washing machine because the store was adamant that only the husband could sign for that kind of indebtedness.

MA:   Was this a surprise for you?

KC:   Yes, an absolute total shock to me!  I didn't know about either of those things. As these things happened, what else? We had a nose out for the "what elses" from then on. Our Commission on the Status of Women unearthed, and then having unearthed you have to do something about it, which we were able to do.

00:22:12

MA:   Let's go from the conference and what came out of it, then. You put together a Commission on the Status of Women after this last conference?

KC:   The governor asked me if I would chair the Commission. The governor's legal aide at the time was a man named Len Zubrensky. Len and his wife Ruth lived not very far from us and Ruth was active in the School for Workers. Several of my friends were on the staff at the School for Workers.

MA:   Was that a school here in Madison?

KC:    It still is. It's a part of the University. It wasn't quite as early as the Bryn Mawr Summer School for Women Workers but was started I think in 1925. It has a very interesting history which I've only found out about in recent years. The School for Workers at the University of Wisconsin actually began as similar to the Bryn Mawr thing, as a school for women workers and there was a woman at the head of it. After this had existed for a couple of years they decided to extend the purpose and to have short term courses available for all workers, union, non-union, but mostly union, men and women. Then of course, no female would be competent to be director of the school. The woman who had started it and had been in charge was relieved of her responsibility while this institution took on a man. Apparently no hackles were raised; this was back in the 1920's because that was just the way life was.

00:24:12

In any case, I think it was Ruth and Len Zubrensky who encouraged my appointment by the governor as chair of the Commission.

MA:   Were you pleased?  Had you hoped that you would be the person chosen?

KC:    I don't know that it had even...I was delighted, absolutely delighted! My mother had died that January and I remember feeling sorry that I couldn't tell her.

MA:   She would have been thrilled!

KC:   That was the first time I was ever tapped by the governor, I suppose the conference too, to do anything. It hasn't been such a shock since then.

MA:   You've become more accustomed to things.

KC:   That's right, but it was very exciting to me.

MA:   How old were you?

KC:   What was the year?

MA:   1965 or 1964.

KC:   In 1964 I was 44.

MA:  Exactly my age.

KC:   In fact, a lot of the leadership were around 40 and in the early 40's.

MA:  How do you explain that?

KC:   Well, I don't know that an explanation is necessary. However, I think that it is probably a stage in life when individuals may have a little more wisdom, we certainly have more experience, and we have probably encountered some of the frustrations of being a female in this society. As you know, from all of our previous sessions together, I was never very mindful personally of having my options foreclosed by reasons of my gender.

MA:   You had to learn that through other women?

KC:   Yes, and then just the experience of motherhood and some years of being a non-earner, a homemaker. I'm probably a slow learner! I think also of this when I hear people being upset that young women in college or of that age are not 200% in the women's movement or, if they are, it is just very restricted aspects of sexuality and other things that have something to do with, but not a lot to do with the economic and political involvement and the legal changes, etc. So, maybe that is...Also, people have time by the time they are in their 40's. Those who are married or do have children aren't as bound to those obligations. We've often said that one of the reasons there aren't as many spokespersons on childcare and the needs of our community, is that those that need it most are so busy they can't be advocates. Once one has passed through that stage of greatest need, it may not be a priority issue. I used to smart off with some of the younger women when abortion rights and family planning were big issues I would say, "Go away," and say "don't bother me, just talk to me about retirement benefits."

00:27:58

MA:   Yes, I think those are good points. It makes sense. So, you were women in your 40's. How did the governor decide who would be on the commission?

KC:    He got a little help from some of us who had been on the Planning Committee. Now this governor, John Reynolds, named our Commission in May of 1964 and then he was defeated for reelection that November.  We had only two year terms in those days for governor of Wisconsin. He was defeated by Warren Knowles who was a Republican–a very enlighted Republican. Warren Knowles served six years as governor, three, two-year terms, and continued our Commission throughout that period. We did the same thing everytime there was a new election and a new governor or continuation of the old governor. We volunteered to be helpful. We didn't wait for something to happen from the governor's office. With John Reynolds, a few of us from the Planning Committee presented him with a list of categories, classifications from which people should come, occupational categories, racial and ethnical categories, geographic and organizational and then had suggestions of, where we were asked for them, of actual individuals, or, if there were individuals who had particularly emerged during the conference itself and in subsequent communications we would suggest those people.  In those early days there wasn't such a big political –John Reynolds was a Democrat, Warren Knowles was a Republican –and they weren't as partisan as subsequent administrations have become. As a matter of fact, when John Reynolds was defeated, we looked around on our Commission and said "Are there any 'card-carrying' Republicans here?"  We had been together just a short time, six months or so, but what one's party affiliation was hadn't entered in at all to any of our deliberations or any of our viewpoints.

MA:   Had you had any battles that we would term today "conservative vs liberal"?

KC:   There were differences of opinion. Some people were much more knowledgeable and informed than others, but no, there were so many new things –we needed to identify issues, we needed to inform ourselves about the establishment.  

00:31:12

Even if you did discover, for example, later on, it took awhile for us in looking at our employment situation, that there either was a law or a rule in Wisconsin that with regard to unemployment compensation that no woman could apply for or receive unemployment compensation for a ten week period before the birth of a baby or four weeks after the birth of a baby. It took a lot of ferreting to find out whether there was a state law or whether this was a ruling made by the Unemployment Compensation Board and if so, who had the authority to change it and who had to be persuaded that this was highly disadvantageous and wasn't logical at all. People, in the first place, didn't necessarily stop a paid employment ten weeks before the birth of a baby –most of us couldn't calculate that closely anyway to know when it was ten weeks before –and that families usually needed money more at the time of the advent of a new member than at other times. It just made no sense at all. It took some time to find out that it was a ruling of our Unemployment Compensation Board, a ruling that had been made many, many years ago and was still being enforced, so we made an appointment. One of the members of our Commission was a man named Doug Ajer, who has since died, who was very helpful in finding out what the source of this was. This also was repeated and could be repeated many, many times...We had members on our Commission on the Status of State Women from a variety of state agencies who served really as built-in liaisons. They would alert us on the Commission to proposals that were forthcoming or to policies that were being thought about and they would carry back to their agencies recommendations from the Commission in ways so that we could function. Everything didn't have to be public; we could negotiate things behind the scenes and have them happen without embarrassment to a lot of people. We made a presentation before the Unemployment Compensation Board explaining why we wanted this ruling to be changed. One of the members of that Board, a man named Jake Friedrich, for whom the Friedrich Center on the campus was subsequently named, he was a representative of the AFL-CIO, on the Board of Regents and also had sat for many years on this Unemployment Compensation Board, had literally tears in his eyes as he heard how discriminatory and damaging to women this ruling was and acknowledged that he was one of the initial advocates for that position, thinking it was doing a great service to women.

MA:   He looked at it as protective legislation?

KC:    That's right, exactly. He thought all those years that they had been doing this wonderful thing for women so that they wouldn't have to be in the labor force during that period. I remember asking what these men thought, and they were all men, a pregnant woman does? That she sits in her straight backed chair or lies down for ten weeks? Even if a woman is not employed she is working at home.

MA:   How did they respond?

KC:    As though these things had never occurred to them before. That was the reaction from all kinds of men in all kinds of issue areas. They had never stopped to think how, whatever the rule was, how it affected women. Had there been women in policy making positions who could have explained, as they went along, how women were affected by this, things could have been a lot different. That's a lesson I think is absolutely important. Every person who is hired these days –when the extreme Right Wing is in the saddle, and it may not be as true under those circumstances, but a lot of policies that had the effect of discrimination are simply the result of ignorance or of not knowing how times have changed. The whole big issue now about parental leave in the minds of many people, the fact that women are employed for the same reasons men are employed, not just for the hell of it or to get away from their obligations at home, and that the necessity for a two-paycheck family where there are two adults is a necessity not simply a luxury. A lot of this information, when people really begin to really understand, they change their minds.  

00:36:52

We always thought that one of the greatest obligations of our Commission on the Status of Women was public education. We did a lot of conferences and meetings and making speeches and meeting with target groups. I can remember some of the hostility at the early meetings I addressed of school counselors, pointing out how the kinds of advice and treatment of women students foreclosed options that ought not to be foreclosed, particularly if we are to prepare women for the facts of life. There was absolute hostility on the part of some of the men in the audience when I suggested that girls should not be told to take typing because "They need it; it's something to fall back on in case they ever needed to work."

MA:   How would that hostility be expressed by the men?

KC:   Sometimes in the kinds of comments they would make. Otherwise it's the grumpiness or their expression or the mumbling among themselves.

MA:   How would you respond? It must have been hard not to be a little defensive.

KC:    I always thought I responded quite well.

MA:   I'm sure you did!

KC:    It was wonderful to see the change in attitude over the years. In the middle 60's I would get this kind of hostility. Sometimes I'd get it from the women in the audience, women counselors, women deans and women that I would expect to have a more enlightened view.

MA:   Would you simply try to continue to explain?

KC:    Yes

MA:   Using reason, basically?

KC:   Yes. Sometimes I'd just stop and shrug and go on to the next point. Over the years the attitudes did change and it was very pronounced in my observation. I can remember a woman who was a dean I think, in one of the small private schools or colleges here in the state, who heard me talking about –again this was in the early days, in the 60's –the life of women, etc., and what women could do if certain changes were made, etc., saying to me finally –I could see she was just uneasy and champing to do something –and finally said to me "Well you wouldn't talk that way if you were married and had children!" I simply said, "I happen to be married and I have three children and I do talk this way." That was sort of the end of that. It was fascinating to me that she said I was only speaking for all the single people.

00:40:01

MA:   Being married and having three children must have been quite an asset at times like that because it must have identified you as "normal."

KC:    I think I made, and maybe I’m not proud of myself for this, but I used to try to get audience identification at the beginning of almost anything. If I was with rural people I would just happen to make some mention of Sparta; if it was a religious organization, I didn't bother to say I'm a fallen away Unitarian, but I'd talk about my dad, the Unitarian minister, and get some kind of rapport so that...Many was the time when I would be invited to other states or another place to which I was a stranger, universities or when I was president of the National Association of the Commissions, then Commissions from all over the country would invite me to come. I would step off the plane and, this happened so many times that I even began to anticipate it, people would kind of look and then I'd see this disbelief and "Oh, you don't look anything like I imagined you'd look." Some who were a little more subtle would wait...and then I didn't sound –I don't know whether they thought I had horns.

MA:   I wonder what they imagined? You never really got an inkling of that?

KC:    I think I got the full inkling right off the bat. I think they didn't expect to see anybody who was calm and a little dignified, if not stuffy.

MA:   Somebody who was perhaps more like themselves than they had expected?

KC:    Yes, because I was often very much like themselves. I think maybe they thought...The press was still talking about bra-burners and foul-mouthed people who were on the streets or whatever. I think they just expected somebody who was less mainstreamed and more radical. I don't know if they were disappointed or if, of course the shoe was sometimes on the other foot. I can remember the first time I was invited to South Dakota. I was subsequently invited there several times. In getting ready to go to South Dakota to address their Commission, which was having a state-wide meeting in the state capitol, I thought now "I'm going to be very careful of how I look and how I sound in South Dakota".

MA:   Prim and proper I take it?

KC:   That's right. In those days we had just begun to wear pant-suits but I thought "I'll just wear a suit with a skirt."  I don't know to what extent I moderated my remarks, or my plan for my remarks. I, who pride myself on having absolutely no stereotypes whatsoever, so totally stereotyped South Dakota. When I arrived, I was the only one there without a pant-suit on. When we began discussing issues, after I had made my presentation, there was a little group of women there who were starting an effort in South Dakota to require that the telephone company list two names on the line without charging any extra. We hadn't even started that in Wisconsin! It wasn't long after that Florence Dickinson up in Door County began a one-person effort which then was you know assisted by other people. But she was largely responsible for that change in our state. And I laughed at myself after that South Dakota incident, and had others not to different. One of the best meetings I ever went to was in the Appalachian (and I learned not to say “Appalaychin” when I was there)—but people from a number of the states and from some of the most impoverished areas—I was doing a special project for the National Advisory Commission on Women’s Educational Programs, which was a commission established under the Women’s Educational Equity Act.  We had a fourth of four consultations on the educational needs of rural women in the Appalachian area, met in North Carolina. And I encountered some of the most creative, inventive, caring, marvelous people that I have—that, of course, has been the real bonus of all of this women’s activity, wherever I’ve gone.  Even though I know that this is the kind of person I’m going to meet, and still overwhelmed again to meet a whole new batch.

00:45:24

MA:   How wonderful! And when you would go to these various states, they already had state commissions and they were often having conferences to—

KC:    Many of them did, yeah. By the early 1970s, and we did start our Interstate Association of Commissions in 1970, which may be a story you want to hear a little bit about, by that time all 50 states had a Commission, some established by legislation, others by appointment of the governor. Some were really first rate, others were kind of, didn’t allow too much, but by that time, cities and counties were beginning to [?] commissions. And at one point, I don’t know the date, but in the early 70s, maybe by 74, there were over 200 official commissions in this country, including city and county and state. There was a time when I—probably 1980 or thereabout—when I saw a list put out by the Women’s Political Caucus, of cities over 50,000 that had women mayors, and there were some 65 at that time in the United States.

[break in recording]

00:46:52

20 to 30 of these cities that have women mayors were in California in locations that had had county commissions on the status of women, so that the kind of development that was taking place in such communities—

MA:   So you think there was a political development as a result of this—

KC:    Sure, there had to be.

00:47:16

MA:    In Wisconsin's Commission, what was the representation by women in the labor movement?

KC:   Always good in numbers and in quality. I think we never had fewer than four union women and sometimes a few union men. We had from different parts of the state, from the AFL-CIO and from the UAW and sometimes from the teacher's union. They were all very active members. I spoke just a week ago in Milwaukee at a banquet honoring Helen Hensler, who had chaired the Women's Committee of the AFL-CIO from 1970 until 1986, and made mention of some of the participation, the importance of the bridge building between the women's movement and the labor movement which was provided by people who had a foot in each camp. I of course belong to the AF of T, the American Federation of Teachers, which my union sisters used to kid me about and say that's really not a union. But at least it was an opportunity to feel a part. I've belonged to CLUW, the Coalition of Labor Union Women since it was founded in 1974. I haven't been a very significant member of that; I was on the local Executive Committee of our local branch of the Coalition of Labor Union Women.

00:49:03

MA:  On the Commission, do you recall how many men were there and how many women?

KC:   Every two years the membership of our Commission changed as a new governor or new term of a governor took place. We did have some continuity of leadership and I remained chair for 15 years. Also, as we would approach a governor at the beginning of a term offering to help with appointments, in addition to giving categories (as I mentioned earlier), from which people should be named, we would also, after we had been in existence for awhile, have a little list of deadwood, of people who didn't seem to be interested and probably would not want to be renamed (we always put things in rather polite terms), and a little roster of the most active members, that it would be wonderful if these ten people would be renamed. So we were giving direction without being arrogant or assuming too much because the governor wouldn't have to pay the slightest attention.

MA:   But the governors did, it sounds like.

KC:   Did, I think in large part because this was probably not the top priority of the governor and they needed some slots to pay off a little patronage, although why anyone regarded it as patronage when there was never any compensation. Our Wisconsin Commission had absolutely no budget even to function on for its first ten years!

MA:   How did you function financially?

KC:   Partly because I was chair and the University administration said "Yes, take this position. You can use your desk and your telephone and secretarial time, even occasionally a little travel money to get to a meeting because this is the Wisconsin Idea, that the resources of the university should be available across the state."  

MA:  How wonderful!

KC:   Otherwise, in all kinds of states that also had no budget, the poor chair would have to work off her kitchen table on any typing or Xeroxing or whatever.

MA:  It must have helped you a lot to have access to the university.

KC:   Yes it did. The access was not only in this replacement budget, but knowing where the intellectual resources were and being able to tap those and ask people to come to our meetings and provide us with information and with help. So that was important.

00:52:13

MA:   Clearly, you had a special breed of "man" on the Commission. I'm wondering about just the dynamics of it.  We always hear about it and know from our own experience what it can be like being in meetings with men.

KC:   We sometimes had as many as seven or eight men on a Commission of maybe 30 people.

MA:   So the women were clearly predominant all the time?

KC:   Yes. Sometimes the women who would be named might be named for political purposes or because they wanted to be on and had applied directly to the governor. Whereas the men who were there were either designated by their agency –for example, we learned this before we ever got going, that if the head of the Department of Public Instruction or the Bureau of Personnel or the Labor Department in the state –if the head of the agency would be asked to name somebody, then that somebody would be there kind of officially and could have access to a state car to get to a meeting and take along a load of people who didn't have access to a state car and could sometimes speak on behalf of the agency. When they came in they weren't there as just Joe Doe in his spare time. So we had a caliber, now once in a while a man would be named who wasn't any great shakes on the Commission, but we had Jack Barbash from our Economics Department, a Professsor of Labor Economics; Doug Ager I've already mentioned; Judge Irv Bruner from the Family Court who just had magnificent insights; we had the head of counseling for the Department of Public Instruction; a couple of farmers; and a couple of labor people. Once in awhile we got some lemons too from the...I remember one man who was an attorney who would come to the meetings that we were going to out of town, sign up for the meeting and then that was the last we'd see of him.

MA:   Did that happen with women as well?

KC:   Not so much; I suppose there might have been some, but none that stick out in my memory the way that one man in particular did. Every once in awhile there would be someone named who just never showed up and never responded, probably wondered why he or she was appointed in the first place.

00:55:16

MA:   It sounds like in the early days you were joined by your purpose so that there wasn't much conflict. You were moving right ahead.

KC:   Right. Towards the end of the last term of Warren Knowles, a number of Republic women were named to the Commission, I think this was because they were Republican and not for other reasons, who came from a fairly Right Wing, nothing like what we have these days, but certainly very conservative. They were not very happy with me for a number of reasons but one that they kind of zeroed in on was that Jean Boyer from Beaver Dam, who was one of the founders of NOW, started the Beaver Dam Commission on the Status of Women and has been instrumental in a million things since...Warren Knowles didn't name her to the Commission on the Status of Women. She first was named in 1970 when Pat Lucy became governor. The reason she wasn't put on the Commission, even though she chaired the only local Commission in the state, was that there were some Republicans in her community, in Beaver Dam and in that county, who didn't like her because she was too progressive for them and they told Knowles "Do not put her on!" Even though he was not terribly partisan, he took seriously that word from his local Republicans. In fact, he even made it known to us what was tying his hands, that he was sorry he couldn't name Jean Boyer and that this was the reason. I suppose I asked any number of times to have her named to the Commission and that's how I got the information. 

MA:   What were the Republican women angry at you about?

KC:   Jean would come to the meetings, all of our meetings were public so that anyone could come, and I would call on her to speak and let her speak her piece. She didn't take advantage of that and I would even give her assignments of things that she was volunteering to do.

MA:   So you acted very much like she was a part of the Commission.

KC:   That's right. Aand that's what these women objected to. They thought we should have some bylaws. We never had any bylaws; we just operated by Robert's Revised Rules and were somewhat informal anyway. I created a Bylaws Committee and put these three particular women on it. They were so busy trying to design some bylaws that they didn't butt into much of anything else and it kept them very busy. The one thing they wanted to write in was that only members of the Commission could speak or could whatever.

MA:   Did they succeed?

KC:   No, but it kept them busy and out of our hair. I don't think non-members should be allowed to make motions or vote on motions.

MA:  But certainly if there is work to be done and they are willing to do it.

00:58:41

KC:   You bring up an issue which I think is very significant and that is that if you are trying to make change within a system, yet you are going through the system to make the change which is necessary, but the change that you're making could challenge the system at the same time, and they then might draw back and not want you to do it.  How did you keep that fine line because you were making radical change in many ways?

MA:   They were, I suppose, incremental changes, a distinction the textbooks like to make.

KC:   So that it wasn't as overwhelming to the "powers that be" if it is one law at a time. In 1966, when we had our third meeting of Commissions on the Status of Women called in Washington by the Labor Department and by the Citizens Advisory Council on the Status of Women, that was the occasion when NOW was formed, and Pauli Murray's posthumous autobiography and Betty Friedan's book, they make mention of the fact that I was the big hold-out in the smoke filled room, and I was. It took the next morning of being turned down by my three friends, women that I knew quite well and assumed were friends, in wanting to pass resolutions. I've been thinking about that, especially since I read the Pauli Murray book again, well I didn't read it again, that my experience in that smoke filled room, my Wisconsin experience was probably unique or fairly unique. We had had a Commission going for two years and, if I add the previous year of planning the conference, had not been rebuffed. We had been able to make changes. We had been able to bring things to the attention and then figure out what is the channel and whom do we need to persuade and educate and then do something about it.

MA:   Then you would do it and the change would take place?

KC:   That was not the experience of the other people who were in the room. That was one reason that I was in a minority in that room. Secondly, the kind of ring leaders in the room, I didn't know who were ring leaders and who weren't because I hadn't been privy to any of their previous conversations in which they had talked about the importance of what Betty Friedan referred to as an "NAACP for women", but Betty, Pauli Murray, Catherine East, Mary Eastwood and others and had met together any number of time saying, "If we're going to budge we've got to have pressure from the outside!" It's what became a political movement. So I wasn't privy to any of that and then we had not really tried to attack the federal establishment. We had taken positions on some federal pending legislation but it didn't amount to anything more than a letter to a committee or a letter to our own congress people. Figuring how to budge the EEOC people, for example, wasn't one of the things...It was a combination of these three factors that kept me being a slow learner or at least looking at it from a different perspective.

MA:   Sure, because you were going from your own experience within the state. I can see that because I read the section in Pauli Murray's book just the other day to see what the response was.

01:03:24
Ninth Interview Session (November 17, 1987): Tape 9

00:00:13

MA:   Okay, lets continue from where we were last week and talk about where your energies went after the State Commission.

KC:   I often wonder where it went! But it did; not right away I guess. We were speaking last time about the smoke filled room and the decision actually to form NOW. On that fateful June day when I was turned down requesting the opportunity to have the conference pass resolutions, a couple of very innocuous ones, but important.

MA:   What specifically were the resolutions?

KC:   There were two that we wanted to have the voice of the assembly on record with. One was urging President Johnson to reappoint Richard Graham to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He was if not the only one, one of two at least members of the EEOC. Eileen Hernandez was the other one who took seriously their mandate to end sex based discrimination. We knew that his term was coming up and the scuttlebutt was that he might not be reappointed; which in fact he was not. The second resolution was one of urging the Equal Opportunities Commission to take seriously sex based discrimination which they were mandated under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act to do something about. So far they had never done anything but laugh at us and think it was some kind of a joke.

MA:   Both of these resolutions were defeated?

KC:    They were never brought to the floor. We didn't get permission. When I said in a previous tape that my three friends turned me down. I was given the assignment the night before if I thought we could pass resolutions which no one else in the room thought we'd be allowed to do. I said at the time, "I've never been to a meeting in my life where you can't speak your piece and pass a resolution, of course we can." So they said "Ok, you be the one to go to  Esther Peterson and Margaret Hickey (who was head of the Citizens Advisory Council at the time and an editor from the Ladies Home Journal) and Mary Keyserling, head of the Women's Bureau. So I did and I was sent from pillar to post, from one to the other then back to make the rounds again. I spent the entire morning, instead of going to workshops, simply speaking with these women. Each one of them said those are important resolutions, it would be wonderful to have –Margaret Hickey is the name, she chaired the Citizens Advisory Committee –and these were the three women who were essentially in charge of that big conference.  Each one said this would sound critical of the Federal Government and you are all here at the invitation of the Federal Government and therefore it's inappropriate to have any resolutions. Of course this gave me real insight into what the women the evening before had been saying. I was absolutely appalled! I guess others were not so appalled, but I was. I'd been doing this all very privately and quietly so I reported in to Betty Friedan and a few others and said "You were absolutely right!  It's no go with these resolutions." So, at the closing session of the conference, which was at noon that very day, we found a table, eight of us sat at the table, and then some others sat at a neighboring table. I was at the table with Betty Friedan and Catherine Conroy. I don't remember which other people were at our table and who was elsewhere. We sat there right under the head table which had several tiers of hot-shots and did our business while the program was going on. Inka O'Hanrahan was at our table; she became the first treasurer of NOW. She was very active in the Women's Party and BPW (Business and Professional Women). As we sat there, dreaming up a name and an acronym, and a Statement of Purpose for this "to be" organization, Inkawould see somebody she knew on the other side of this hugh ballroom, which was converted into dining area at the time, and she would run over to tell somebody what we were up to, and then run back again. There was a table full of labor women sort of back-to-back with us who were assembled by Marguerite Gilmore, the Regional Director of the Women's Bureau of Chicago, who had wanted an opportunity for some of the labor women to convene and talk I suppose, so they had half an ear on what we were doing.  At one point at this lunch table, Catherine Conroy, from the labor movement said, "Ok, let's put our money where our mouths are." She put a $5 bill on the table, so each of us followed suit. That looked like a sizeable chunk.  Here I was, from the Wisconsin Commission, which didn't have a penny of budget for its entire first ten years, so when eight of us each put down $5, that was $40 and looked not bad. Then other people from other tables kept coming over and saying "What are you doing? What are you doing?" So by the time that the meeting adjourned and the lunch was over, 27 or 28 people had signed up and paid their $5. One of them was Anna Roosevelt Halsted. There is a list someplace of who all the others were. We had $5 from each one. Also, Catherine Conroy volunteered me to be the temporary chair, although someone pointed out that I had a desk and a secretary. So, I had that chore. One of the first things I did when we got back to Madison was to convene, or invite, about a half-a-dozen people to serve as a temporary Steering Committee so that I wouldn't just be making decisions by myself.

00:07:41

MA:   Let's back up just a little bit.  Why specifically did you want to form this organization?

KC:    I was convinced by my experience that morning of the need to have some external pressure, and particularly for pressuring the federal establishment. We were not thinking, at least I wasn't, I don't know what visions other folks had of what ultimately developed was local chapters, state level, regional, all of that. In fact, one of the early discussions at Board meetings in fact Pauli Murray was one of the people who raised these questions "Are we a leadership organization or are we thinking about a mass membership organization?" That was something that hadn't been talked or thought about.

MA:   At this point you certainly hadn't made that distinction.

KC:    Oh no. Of that original 27 or 28 members, eight or ten of them were from Wisconsin. Then Analoyce Clapp, who sat at our table and took some notes, or minutes of that little kind of organizing session, was at the conference not as a member of a State Commission—her husband is Norm Clapp who had some important job in Washington at the time—but while she was in Washington, she is a journalist by trade, they had owned a rural newspaper in Wisconsin before they went to Washington–she was acting as a stringer for the Milwaukee Sentinal, I think it was the Sentinal not the Journal, so that she had been trailing the Wisconsin Commission delegation in order to send back home stories for our state newspaper. That was why she trailed Conroy and me to this table, which was wonderful because she kept a full list of who was there, who paid as well as what when on.  She sent her story back to Wisconsin and had a scoop on the formation of NOW, for which she was paid $15 by her newspaper. We still kid her. She came to our 20th anniversary celebration in Washington a year ago and also when the state NOW feted, the local folk who had been initial organizers at the governor's residence also a year ago, in 1986 at least, Analoyce and Mary Eastwood came to that too.
 
00:10:41

I communicated with the members of this temporary Steering Committee. Carolyn Ware in Washington was one, Betty Talkington from Iowa from the labor movement, AFL-CIO was another, and Betty Friedan I suppose. One of the first things we really needed to do in addition to setting a date for a real organizing conference, which was finally held in October of 1966, was to get some bylaws put together which would structure the organization. All we had was this little one sentence Statement of Purpose and a title, but nothing more than that. I did go to Washington and I stayed with Mary Eastwood so I only had my fare to pick up and not the hotel. Marguerite Gilmore, Phineas Indritz—I wrote to Phineas several times thinking he was a woman and I should have known that Phineas was a man and in fact it's a biblical name, so I was an embarrassment to the Methodist Church I'm sure. Let’s see, Betty Friedan, Mary Eastwood, Marguerite Gilmore, Pauli Murray and I met in Mary Eastwood's apartment and spent a couple of days drafting. Marguerite Gilmore had probably drafted the bylaws for a dozen important groups. Catherine Easton and I have a tape, we interviewed Marguerite about ten years ago and we finally managed to wheedle out of her, because she had forgotten half of the things she had started to organize—she's in her 90's now. There was so much at those sessions, drafting the bylaws and answering questions and...Betty Friedan had never organized anything in her life.

MA:   What had she done prior to this time?

KC:    She wrote a book which was published in 1963 and then had done a lot of lecturing based on that.

MA:    But no community organizing of any sort?

KC:    I don't believe so. That made it difficult to work together with Betty. She is a brilliant woman and an idea person and has a great deal of vision and great deal of insight.  Her field actually is psychology. But the shouting that would go on in that...I can't remember who shouted back to Betty because the others there were not particularly shouters. I was totally unaccustomed to anybody losing their temper or sounding off and I should have, I suppose, gotten accustomed to it over the four years that I chaired the board of NOW because that board, no matter how many changes were made, would be filled with prima Donna's, mostly who had no organizational experience except with the labor women and an occasional person from BPW—

00:14:09

KC:    –but maybe I'm getting a tiny bit ahead of my story. We did finally hammer out a draft of some bylaws that looked workable and then set the date in October for the organizing conference.

MA:   What kind of conflicts would you have over the bylaws? Could you state for me, were there ideological differences?

KC:    I don't think so, not at that point because we still haven't gotten around to doing ....

MA:   Organizational glitches then?

Yes. Marguerite Gilmore who is an attorney and a highly organized person and has been national president of Women Lawyers and BPW and I don't know what else, is a very organizational kind of person.  I suppose she would say "We've got to have provisions for this, that and the other thing" and Betty would say "Oh no, let’s not tie our own hands."

MA:   How would all of this be resolved? Would you resolve it through consensus or take a vote or just whoever wore out?

KC:   I don't remember. Sometimes there were just honest differences. I suppose they were all honest differences but even among some of us who had done some of this before. We got organized enough that we were able to do a draft and we sent it out to the temporary Steering Committee and to others.

00:15:50

The October date was set in Washington at the Press Club building. By that time I couldn't afford to go again.  I'd been there the June time and then a second summer trip. I didn't even want to...I made that decision myself, I didn't take a vote in my household but I had already spent more on going to these things than...because our Commission didn't send any of us to that June meeting either. So, I just didn't go. I did suggest to Dorothy Witte Austin, the journalist in Milwaukee who was then with the Milwaukee Journal, and who had covered all of our own Commission stuff for three years, that she might like to go and she could keep her eyes and ears open and report back to me. Well, she went and I got about three or four phone calls from that meeting, I was here at home, mostly from Pauli Murray, but one was from Betty Friedan, "Who is this Dorothy Austin? This meeting is closed to journalists. We're not allowing any journalist to be here, not even women journalists." Those were still the days when women's groups, although by 1966 there still weren't a lot of feminist groups, were very suspicious of any journalist. I wasn't suspicious of Dorothy Austin because she had been an ally, and a very important ally to us here in the state, but apparently others there had had negative experiences with journalists covering something and then making fun of it in their stories. They were going to boot her out. She comes to all of our events and is honored among the rest of us and likes to tell that, even though they had confirmation from me that she was a good person to have there, and that it would be valuable to us to have her report. They were still going to ask her to leave and she said, "All right, the newspaper had sent her to cover this organizing meeting and if she had to leave, that was going to be the lead of her story." They reconsidered and let her stay.  One of the things that Pauli Murray kept calling me about –kept calling, she called maybe twice I think –in the original bylaws, I don't believe it was structured the way it was finally passed at that October meeting, but it was a natural that Betty Friedan be president of the organization. She was well known already and a leading light in moving this thing along and because she was getting all over the country to make speeches because of her book, she would be mobile and a good spokesperson.

MA:   Was there any debate about that?

KC:   I don't believe so. However, the debate was that she was not an organizer or a very well organized person, and that was raising a lot of fears. What they did was to structure it; Pauli, when she talked to me about it was sort of apologetic and said this is sort of a corporate structure, but we want to have a chair of the Board, somebody who will not only chair the Board meetings but will see that everything else moves along and they asked me to take that job which I finally agreed to do with reluctance, I don't know why I was reluctant, but that's kind of my style I guess, to be reluctant, the reluctant dragon.

MA:   Were you worried perhaps that it would be more work than you bargained for?

KC:   I suppose. In any case, I was pleased; one part of me was please. I agreed and I was elected in absentia. There were people at that conference that I had never heard of.

00:20:23

MA:   That was my next question. Who came to the conference and how were they notified? How was the decision made?

KC:   I guess anyone who had paid their $5. I kept the treasury such as it was, over that summer time, and took in memberships and people just sort of by word of mouth would write to friends or phone up friends and tell them that we were starting this and if they wanted to join...By the time of that October meeting there were 300 paid members, of which 120 or 130 were in Wisconsin, because of the publicity and because there were enough of us from Wisconsin so that we had passed the word among our friends. Alice Rossi, the sociologist, was at that October meeting—I can't remember if she'd been at...I don't think she was at the Washington conference in June—but she was absolutely certain that she knew 30 or 40 sociologists who were feminists who would immediately join us. She wrote personal letters to these women. Not one was willing to join! It seemed too radical, people were not yet using the word discrimination, we were talking about disadvantages and obstacles, but nobody used the word oppression, even those of us who were getting this thing off the ground.

MA:   Were there any lesbian women in the initial formation within the initial group?

KC:    Not who identified themselves as such. The first time the question, within the organization, was formally brought to the floor of a national conference was in 1970 at our Chicago conference.

MA:   We can get to that later then.

KC:   We began having Board meetings very soon after this organizing meeting in Washington which was in October.  I think we had our first Board meeting in November.

00:22:56

MA:   You were all self-consciously feminists then? That was part of your program to be stated explicitly, you would use terminology to...

KC:    No. We didn't use the word feminists to begin with. I don't even know to what extent people identified themselves in that language.

MA:   But yet, you think the women sociologists identified you in that way?

KC:    In fact, the current expression was "women's liberation/women's lib" so that was almost a pejorative, especially when it was used in the press.  I must look sometime at one of those old clippings and see when I see the word "feminist" first appearing. I know that the first time I used the work "sexist", I even thought I invented it because I'd never read it anywhere, was in 1969. I was asked to address the American Psychological Association and I spent my vacation up at our cottage writing my paper for that. It took me quite a few years to learn not to take work up to the cottage. I finally did learn that, but it took a long time. Anyway, I used the words "sexist" and "sexism". "Racism" I knew but I had never heard or read the words "sexist' or "sexism", they might have been around but I hadn't encountered it.  

MA:   How did your audience at the Psychological Association respond?

KC:    It was kind of a self-selected group, so the response was very affirmative. Some of the KNOW members who were present at that thing, which had nothing to do with NOW, published the paper later on—KNOW was a publishing outfit that some of these Pennsylvania women had put together.

00:25:12

I started to say, we had our first Board meeting of the NOW group in Betty Friedan's Victorian Parlor—that's the way the New York Times described it—but we did meet in Betty's apartment in New York. One of the decisions we made at that meeting was that we would either ask for or demand, I don't know which, an audience with the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission as long as we weren't allowed in June to. So, Betty Friedan got on the phone, called Washington and said that we were meeting and, in fact, got this into a news story. Quite a few reporters came and took pictures. Muriel Fox, who was on that first Board and was a friend of Betty's, I think they became friends really through the organizing of NOW. Muriel is a public relations person and an absolute genius and was vice president of Carl Bior and Associates in New York, which I think has just very recently retired from that. She made us sound like we were the marching millions. Whenever we had—we had Board meetings in different parts of the country in order to do a little recruiting and get some local press, TV, and newspaper. After every Board meeting Murial would type up this press release. We didn't want press to come in to our meetings so we would issue our own press releases. She would carry it by taxi or vehicle of some sort around to every newspaper, radio and TV in whatever community we were meeting, before she went to bed that night so that it was there for coverage. That's one of the reasons that we had such good press, the reason was Muriel Fox.

00:27:19

Betty Friedan, that first November of 1966, telephoned someone at EEOC and said that the members of the Board would like to meet. This person at the other end, I am absolutely convinced, responded in this way in hopes that we wouldn't be able to accept, said "Alright, they would see us the next day at 2:00 in the afternoon or whatever." A lot of us had our plane reservations, because we came from all over the country, we were about 15 or 20 people, and that we weren't going to be out-foxed by those people so we said, "Fine. We'll be there." I know that I for one had to reroute myself. Luckily, in those days before deregulation you didn't get fined for doing that.  But I did have to leave from Baltimore. We went from New York then to Washington for the meeting and I couldn't get out from National so I had to take a bus up to Baltimore, and that was a royal pain.  Nevertheless, we did have the opportunity to meet with them and I think by calling their bluff we at least began some explorations with them and then let them know that we were serious.

MA:   What was your goal of the meeting with them?

KC:   I can't remember what the issue was...Well, to let them know that there were a lot of people who cared about sex discrimination and the mandate and we wanted them to take it seriously. We may have come in with one or two specifics, I don't know. The BFOQ (Bona Fide Occupational Qualification) was one issue that we wanted minimized or removed from their guidelines. I can't remember exactly the occasion for that. Also, newspaper advertising "Help Wanted" columns. They refused to, for years, the EEOC refused to say that that was discrimination to segregate jobs for men and jobs for women. It took a long time. In any case, that was our first but not only meeting with the EEOC, but the first thing that we did as Board members.  

00:29:50

It took a long time, I don't know how long, for Betty Friedan and me to work out a harmonious and trusting relationship. She would phone me quite often and always in what struck me as a very disjointed kind of "I've got this idea and I want to" and she kind of stammered when I met her. I remember one of those phone calls, she had a great idea, we should have a national action and go to every one of the ten regional offices of the EEOC and make demands for this or that, like tomorrow. We were to organize, we had a pocketful of people in each of the areas, but Betty would get an idea, and they were usually good ideas, but she would have no idea what was involved in implementing or how much lead time or how many communications...

MA:   How would you deal with her then when it would happen?

KC:   Well, it seemed to take a little while.

MA:   Would she hear you? 

KC:   Yes, I think so. But, for a long time, she thought I might be a spy for the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department. I had such good working relationships with all the people in the Women's Bureau, had relied on their materials and publications.

00:31:27

Mary Keyserling was Director of the Women's Bureau at the time that we started NOW, and she was very, very miffed and I don't know if she was fearful of the organization but she didn't get the message that you could have pressures from the outside and still work with people on the inside. She behaved as though she were personally affronted and had no more communication with me until years later, in fact, it was when she retired as Director of the Women's Bureau that I wrote her a very lovely letter. That was our first communication. I thought to myself of the old "Turn the other cheek" biblical injunction. I thought about it before I made a decision to. I guess I was invited to the retirement event but it was in Washington so I didn't go, then I thought "Well, what the heck." We really had the same goal in mind, not only in mind, but we were investing ourselves in the goal of an improved society, particularly for women, but we had different ways of getting there, so, I wrote her.  It was general to that effect, I was sorry that we hadn't communicated and I thought there was no point in rubbing salt in the wound.  

00:32:57

Anyway, Betty Friedan was suspicious of me because I had such warm relationships and that, for some good reason, to be a little bit suspicious that the establishment, not necessarily the Labor Department or the Women's Bureau, but FBI, CIA kind of monitoring of any protest movement. We knew full well that they were infiltrating everything else, I don't know if Betty ever thought I was one of those, but over the years, from time to time, she would be suspicious of certain people. I don't think she's paranoid but I think she's insightful.

MA:   Were you ever monitored in any way, to your knowledge?

KC:   No, not really to my knowledge. There were lots of suspects around. In any case, I wasn't suspicious of Betty but I was, again, the screaming lots of times and the I don't know what it was but the fact is that I would have to be geared up in order to receive one of her phone calls. My whole family then got the message and would protect me.  If they would answer the phone and I would say "If it's Betty, I can't talk now" and they would say they would give me the message and have me call. When I felt up to it, I would call.

00:34:45

MA:   Do you think that it was a case of very different work styles, or was it even more than that? Were you the only person that had difficulty working with her or did other people as well?

KC:    Oh no. In fact, I developed one of the best working relationships that anybody had with her I think. We did come to respect each other. We are quite different in working style, and I am a slower learner and I'm deliberate about the things I do and plan. Betty would carry her whole file of information with her in a sort of carpet bag that she had on the plane. If you would ask her about something, boy she'd start pawing through this and finally found a little piece of paper. Getting these ideas, the ideas for Women's Equality Day, October 26, which is now nationally celebrated.  

00:35:54

At our 1970 conference, which was held in Chicago, Betty and I had agreed before that that we would each step down from our respective –we'd been reelected at each conference in between, and we figured nobody was urging us out or necessarily dying to run. But, we thought that we'd been there long enough, in fact, I was exhaused from those Board meetings which were incredibly fatiguing and wearing. I was still chairing the Wisconsin Commission and we met with more regularity than the national NOW Board and had as many or more people and subcommittees that really produced materials and did things, and we had conferences and things all around the state. While I would be tired at the end of the day because I put a lot of myself into it, it was never a frustrated or angry or whatever, and every one of the NOW Board meetings was just something to behold. In the first place, the people on the Board, part of them came out of the woodwork, everyplace Betty Friedan was going to make a speech if she would meet someone who was particularly active or bright or interested, she'd say, "Oh come and be on our Board," or "Come at least to the Board meeting." In those early days she was just naming people so we would have just the most motley kind of collection of people who just that day had discovered that women were discriminated against or else viewed themselves as the latter day Susan B. Anthony, I don't know, just lot's of prima donna's. As the days moved on or the years moved on, I think some of the feminist ideology or procedure, no stars, no procedures, no rules, sort of anarchy. There were quite a few feminists anarchists who would come into the meetings who would want to know why they needed to ask permission to speak, I exaggerate now, but it wasn't easy to...

I was happy enough to leave the chair. I was re-elected to the Board for several more terms and actually was never defeated, I finally didn't run again. When we came to that Chicago meeting Betty pulled me aside and said "I think I want to have my retirement speech have something forward looking in and I just read up on this and found out that the last state to ratify the 19th amendment was Tennessee and it ratified on August 26th.  Wouldn't it be great if we declared that Womens's Equality Day and had a celebration. What do you think of that?  I don't want to do it unless you think it's a good idea?" I said "It's a great idea." I'd never heard of it and never thought of it but ok, fine. She just had to sound out.

MA:   So she put it in her speech?

KC:   That's right, and declared it for that very year and with the motto "Don't iron while the strike is hot," and we were off and running. People did celebrate it all over the country that first year, just by that declaration.

00:39:53

MA:   Given what sounds like a fair amount of disunity and organizational difficulties, how do you explain the phenomonal growth?

KC:    I don't think there was disunity in the sense of where do we go from here.

MA:   You believe there was unity for the goals?

KC:   Yes. In 1967 we had an annual conference in Washington. There was disunity there because we took a vote on whether or not to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment. The women for UAW, who were there in force knowing that this issue was going to come up, said "Don't do it now because we can't remain in this organization if it takes a stand in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment. However, we've been working on the organization of the UAW and we think they're almost ready to approve;" which is quite a switch of course from the protective labor stuff and if the organization voted then at that moment to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment the UAW people would have to leave. Well, in that interval between the organizing conference of NOW and this annual conference a year later, the UAW volunteered the time and office of Caroline Davis in Detroit, she was head of the Women's Division of UAW, to be the secretary and treasurer of NOW, which was an enormous service and in-kind contribution. They received all the new memberships, typed up and duplicated the minutes, mailed them out, took care of all the postage costs and everything. Well, if UAW was going to go then Caroline Davis' services would also and we'd have to find another place to do all of that or else not have it handled well. Mary Eastwood and Caruthers Burger, who were two of the attorneys who were already handling cases for us; we did not yet have a legal defense and education fund, but still the membership organization was handling a number of landmark court cases, and these were two of the volunteer attorneys, Mary and Caruthers.  They stood up on the floor and said "If we don't act that very day, they will withdraw," and the UAW people said "If you do act today, we will withdraw." There was no question in the organization of support for ERA.  The question was, which incidentally was a new thought to an awful lot of us, the Equal Rights Amendment; what it would do and why it was necessary. I had never heard of the Equal Rights Amendment in all my graduate years in Political Science. Phineas Indritz and I tried to nullify the conference and say, you know, I really wanted them to postpone the vote and I didn't see any reason why postponement should affect Mary and Caruthers so.  But, in any case, the vote was not postponed.

Tape 8, Side 2 November 17, 1987

00:46:47

MA:   Kay, you were talking about in 1972 some pressure in Congress regarding the ERA.

KC:    I said that the NOW people had a significant hand in lobbying congress and finally after 49 years of looking at the ERA they finally did vote. So, I suppose that action in 1967 was a part of all of that. By 1970 the AFL-CIO had endorsed the Equal Rights Amendment. I've already told the story of how the Wisconsin Women's Conference had a significant hand in having that happen.  

00:47:41

But back to NOW, I remember one very difficult decision we had to make at a Board meeting that took place in Chicago in I think about 1968. I know that it was the worst snowstorm, as bad as the one that brought Jane Byrne into office, that wasn't the one of course, that was a discussion of what dues we should be charging for membership.

MA:   You were always short of money as I recall in my reading.

KC:   That's right. At $5 a head that hardly covered anything and nobody's expenses for anything could be paid.

MA:   So everyone paid out of pocket then?

KC:   That's right, as well as postage and long distance calls as well as traveling and getting to meetings.  It was expensive. In fact, I've often said jokingly that I never belonged to anything at the right time. I always belonged before there was money to pay anybody's way to anything. Buth then I suppose somebody has to do that.  Alice Rossi was leading the discussion at that Board meeting in Chicago not to raise the dues because she did not want to keep people out of the organization for economic reasons. We had to weigh that against the absolute necessity to have more money.  I don't suppose going to foundations or to anybody else for a grant was even feasible. Grants weren't so common in the '60s as they became later on. I think we finally did decide to raise the dues to $10 and maybe have special dues for students or low income people.  

00:49:52

Also, Catherine Conroy continued to raise the question of having some advance thought into structuring national conferences. To have delegates to conferences, based on her union experience, we not only had our Board meetings moved around the country, but so did the annual conference. At first we didn't have an annual conference, we had one at lease every 18 months, so it could fall at different times of the year and always in a different part of the country, one in Atlanta, Georgia, several in Washington, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago.

MA:   Did you have any on the west coast?

KC:    Yes. There was one in California, in Los Angeles, which was the tenth anniversary I believe. I didn't go to that one because it fell right on our wedding anniversary which was never an event that we made anything of, but that was at the time that Hank knew that he had Parkinson's. He was kind of upset about it and wanted to give me a very special gift for our wedding anniversary, the watch maybe not this one, but it was a very nice one.  In any case, I didn't go. Conroy very wisely kept saying that as the organization is growing and as new groups were being chartered –the chartering I'm laughing about now because we didn't have any procedure for chartering local chapters.

MA:   How did that begin?

KC:    I think just enough members belonged in one community so they thought why don't we just have a local one so we can have some local actions. It began like topsy I suppose. They wrote to me as chair of the Board and said "How do we get to be official?" I know I was writing little letters endowing them with legal status before we had any procedure worked out. Conroy thought we ought to have a delegate system so that depending on how many members there were in a state they would get so many. That of course is what exists now and they do it by, I don't know if it is by state or region and then local chapters. She had that kind of foresight. She began to feel like a broken record because she would bring this up all the time and others would say "unnecessary". Of course, it wasn't unnecessary and finally it was adopted. At one of our Board meetings, I can't remember if this one was in Baton Rouge, no it wasn't, it was in Kentucky, it was wherever the Colgate Palmolive -- we were active in the Colgate-Palmolive case which was a landmark case. This was again before we had a legal defense fund.

00:53:34

MA:   So your two women attorneys...

KC:   Yes, and Marguerite Raywalt. It was at that Board meeting that Betty Boyer, who was an attorney in Ohio and had been on our Board, was very turned off by the Board's stand, or the organization's stand on right to choice, reproductive choice, right to abortion.

MA:  What was the Board's stand?

KC:   That was part of the original...

MA:   You were pro choice?

KC:    Yes. We produced a bill of rights at that first annual conference and that was one of the planks. I don't know if it was contrary to her religion or contrary to something else, so she decided to start another organization called WEAL, Women's Equity Action League, which would not be a mass membership group and would concentrate on employment and education, none of the other issues. She handled this I thought in a very professional way.  She came to the Board meeting and told us that that was what she was going to do and that she wasn't leaving in acrimony or competitiveness or whatever.  I think it was kind of hard for a lot of us to accept it cheerfully.

MA:   What was the response? Did you feel it would hurt NOW, for example?

KC:   We didn't know if it would, but a lot of people became members of both. It did provide a place for people who were uneasy about the abortion question. It has done a lot of good things over the years. Arvonne Fraser from Minnesota who was with AID for a long time, her husband is Don Frazier who was in the Congress and is now the mayor of Minneapolis and Arvon is now at the Hubert Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota, and putting out some wonderful international kinds of materials, was at one time the national president of WEAL. Catherine East has been very active, Marguerite Raywalt and a great many people who have had dual membership in both over the years.

MA:   Was that the first example of a split from your organization where a new organization was formed?

KC:    I think that may have been the first but it was not long after that, or it was in the same period, that Mary Eastwood, the attorney in Washington, started Human Rights for Women and I don't know on what issues she was parting company. She didn't leave NOW but she did this...

MA:   Human Rights for Women?

KC:    It still exists.

MA:   Did it have to do again with the abortion issue?

KC:    No because Mary is very solid on the right to choice.  

00:56:58

Another of the big problems and one that created a great deal of screaming back and forth and fireworks had to do with establishing our legal expense and education fund. We got involved as an organization in supporting legal action with contributed services from our own attorneys plus money that we would cough-up ourselves when we had no fund to do that.

MA:   That was the primary focus wasn't it initially, as I've read?

KC:   It wasn't the primary focus but we did get involved. Sylvia Roberts was one of our members in Louisiana and she successfully handled the Weeks' case, Lorena Weeks case against the telephone company. Mary Caruthers and Marguerite were active in the Colgate-Palmolive and the Mengle Koch case out on the west coast and the Rosenthal case.

MA:   Was there a question about where money would go? Like most organizations you lay out your priorities and then make a decision about where your energy and funds will go.

KC:   We established fairly early a legal committee of the membership organization, Marguerite Rawalt chaired that, in order to make decisions about whether to take on a case or not. It had to be a landmark one that would affect the law, not just defending an individual who had a discrimination complaint. These cases that I mentioned were all landmark cases and were all handled by NOW before we had a legal defense fund. There was an attorney in New York, Grace Cox, and I witnessed a shouting match between Grace Cox and Betty Friedan at the Atlanta conference the likes of which...if you can picture two little kids that are furious with each other, just furious, but these were grown-up adults. I had never before seen grown-up adults...they didn't hit each other but they were red in the face, they were shouting and you could hear them for blocks. This all began because Grace Cox had been dragging her feet. She had volunteered to get a charter or whatever and have us legally ensconced as a legal defense and education fund. It took several years, first Grace wasn't getting it done and there were two or three people that had a go at it and I think finally Marguerite Rawalt did it in Washington for us. We finally did, in 1972, establish a legal defense and education fund.

MA:   So the argument was over whether or not it would be established?

KC:   No. The decision had been made and it was just getting Grace Cox off dead center.

MA:  Oh, Betty was anxious for her to move?

KC:    Apparently it is a somewhat complicated process but the procedure is clearly laid out so it was just a question of getting the move on. I don't know if Grace Cox didn't want it to happen or she just didn't want to take the time to do it.

MA:  Did she end up doing it?

KC:   No. Marguerite Rawalt ended up doing it. So there were lots of fireworks from time to time.

01:01:03

MA:   You've mentioned issues which were crucial issues like the abortion issue and you mentioned earlier in Chicago in 1970 at the conference that the lesbian issue, I believe Betty Friedan called it the "lavender menace". Tell me about that from your perspective.

KC:   Several of the women, for whom I have a lot of respect, spoke with me privately before that Chicago conference and put it in terms of democracy. I think the hesitation on my own part and that of...although I was more neutral than I was anything else, but the hesitation on the part of many people was that our organization was having enough difficulty getting established and being listened to and being taken seriously without taking on one more issue that was going to increase that. So the sort of wait a little while....

MA:   What was the issue? What were the women asking of NOW?

KC:   That a plank in the platform, that an agenda item be to extend the non-discrimination to lesbians. There never had been any question in the organization or, as Betty Friedan used to say, "We do not do a bed check." We don't ask people what their sexual preference is and say you may not join as a result. In fact, the only prerequisite for belonging was affirming the Statement of Purpose which was that you do not discriminate on the basis of sex or any other basis. So, there were quite a few lesbians, some self proclaimed and others not self proclaimed in the organization. Some of the leadership people, some of my favorite people in the organization were lesbians. What they were asking was that this sexual preference be incorporated as one of the issues. That didn't happen at the Chicago meeting; the issue was brought up but it was voted down.  

01:04:13

In fact, I was telling David just the other day when he was chairing a session of the Wisconsin Assembly recently one of his rulings was contested from the floor and I said "Only once in my life, in all the things I've chaired, was my ruling contested, then it was put to a vote and I lost the vote. The challenge was sustained by the vote of the body."

MA:   What was that?

KC:    I told him what it was. It was at that Chicago meeting and Ruth Gage Colby, who was a real peace advocate and had done a lot of international things, was a member of the organization and she proposed a resolution that NOW go on record in opposition to American involvement in the Vietnam war. The people lined up from here to there to speak to that from the microphone. A lot of people who were very much in favor of that resolution said "That is not an appropriate thing for this organization to take a stand on." So, the resolution was defeated.  Very soon after that, in the same meeting, either Ruth or somebody else brought in another resolution that NOW opposes war or military hostilities as an instrument of national policy. Someone said "That's out of order, we just voted it down" I said "No, the chair is going to rule that 'in order' because I think that's a totally different issue, one was specific to the Vietnam war and this is a matter of principle that we oppose violence and institutionalized violence." So, I was challenged, I stepped down and somebody took over the chair and the challenge to the chair was upheld so the motion was out of order and we couldn't vote on it. I kept wondering now why in hell is this happening because I know all of these peaceniks were taking that position. Then I realized, much later realized, that if the issue of sexual preference came up, they also were going to rule that out of order. They were going through this whole motion of anything that wasn't...and that's why that was happening.

MA:   You're convinced?

KC:   Oh yes.  

01:07:07

       However, I think that at the next annual conference

MA:  In the next year, 1971 or so?

KC:   I think that was about the time that the issue was put on the agenda or on the Bill of Rights for the Statement of Purpose.

MA:  So that a plank was included at that time.  What do you think made the difference within that year?

KC:    I don't know if it was the new leadership or new membership on the Board or just the passage of time and the organization felt strong enough. And, of course the idea was new to a lot of people, just as ERA was new to a lot people and having the question of abortion rights as a political consideration. I can't remember a time in my life, from the time I knew the word abortion, that I thought it was nobody's business, that the government had no business, that it's a usurpation of government authority to butt into...to jump from there knowing that it was a political problem was a leap that I only made after I was on the Board of NOW. I can remember Pauli Murray talking about that any other opportunity and right for women is ultimately not going to mean a hill of beans if a woman can't control her own reproductive life.  

01:08:42

That was what brought another new idea to me. I encountered so many new ideas over the years, not only in NOW but on our Commission, of things I had never thought about.

MA:  That process, it sounds to me, of talking about it with the women that you were working with

KC:   It was important. The whole notion of sexual preference as a right and as an...I didn't, in the first place, know anything about gay and lesbian people and I knew that the few people that I knew who told me that they were lesbians were people that I mostly liked. There were a few that I hated, didn't hate but didn't want to spend any time with. There was an occasion in Washington, it must have been in about 1969 because it was when Libby Koontz was first named director of the Women's Bureau and she was named during the Nixon administration, he was elected in 1968 and this was in 1969, George Schultz was Secretary of Labor, and named a Black woman Democrat as head of the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department, which was quite astonishing.

MA:   Yes, how do you explain that?

KC:    I don't know. George Schultz knew her through educational circles and thought she was fantastic and she was.  Anyway, some of the NOW people were in Washington and were going to have a meeting with Libby Koontz, now that Mary Keyserling was no longer there–Mary who hated the notion of NOW. They were having a get acquainted session and to say that maybe they could work together, etc. I was prohibited by the NOW people from going into that meeting. I don't know if they didn't want to take advantage of my former friendship with the Women's Bureau or they didn't want to be tainted by Mary Keyserling's feelings toward me, I can't remember now what the rationale was but it was explained and so I made myself scarce. I think they were headquartering as a staging area in a room in the Mayflower Motel so I went there while the delegation went up to see Libby Koontz. Betty Friedan and I were there and, I don't know how many, four or six people who I think were pulling our leg, but who were lesbians and who were being very obviously affectionate and making sort of veiled threats of attacking Betty or me or whatever. I don't know what kind of a game they were playing but it didn't set very well with me. I thought this is no way, if you are trying to persuade somebody of something, it's no way to do it.

MA:   Were they members of your organization?

KC:   Yes. They were NOW members. There were a number in New York City and, of course, Betty had her outs and was at odds with some of the lesbians in the New York NOW in that kind of period. It was not really I think until the Houston Conference in 1977, which was not a NOW conference, the National Women's Conference when the issue of sexual preference came on the floor of the conference that Betty spoke on behalf of passing that at this national conference. That was considered a real turning point. It was important to the passage of that plank but it was also important to the many lesbian women who were not only delegates, but those sitting up in the gallery, to have Betty make...She made a very brilliant and impassioned statement.

01:12:53

MA:   I find it fascinating that, like most organizations, it seems like there were issues that came from the outside that you slowly incorporated as planks within your organization. As the organization grew, so to did the planks, is that correct?

KC:   Yes.

MA:   Do you think it was in response to the pressure of women to changes in society, a combination, your organization itself?

KC:   I suppose one would have to say it's all of the above.

MA:	   Do you think the women's liberation movement, many books talk about this, was a spur to radicalizing now some of the more radical small groups, red stockings, etc., who had, even today I think we would say extraordinaryly radical positions? Do you think the far left served to radicalize NOW?

KC:	   I don't know, I suppose so. I suppose as some of the members from the campus based and other women's liberation groups became members of NOW and brought their thoughts and...

MA:	  And that did happen. Because again, the literature characterizes the membership of NOW as mostly quite well educated, white, middle class, women.

KC:	   Yes, but that is not terribly accurate, it depends on what literature you are reading. I know that Jo Freeman is one of the people who had originally written about that and then what she wrote has been cited and copied by other people.  To an extent, that original characterization is true, but there were, I would say that the original members, the early members, tended to be better educated than the average bear. We had union members who were high school graduates and our very first Board had Black men and Black women and from a variety of economic classes and educational levels, so, that's an exaggeration to begin with. Barbara Ehrenreich has an article in that 15th anniversary issue of Ms magazine in which she says she has several responses to when people say that the rebirth of the women's movement was a white, middle class, educated thing, 1) is that that isn't totally accurate, 2) who is in a better position to be able to afford the time and money to get something off the ground and, 3) her response is "So what!" So what if it was, but it is not totally accurate nor do I think there was such a big...I don't think that the original Bill of Rights of NOW is a very conservative document. In fact, almost the only thing that wasn't in it, that is now, is the sexual preference plank, the other things were sufficiently broad in their statement of employment, education, home and family, legal rights, childcare, and abortion.  

01:16:46

At that same 1967 conference where we did adopt the Equal Rights Amendment plank Alice Rossi gave a position paper on the sole subject of reproductive freedom which was a mistressful, gorgeous paper, and again it opened my eyes to a lot of aspects and ways of looking at the whole question that I hadn't thought of  and I'm sure that what was true for me was true for a lot of other people.  Mary Jean Collins, who was the vice president of NOW under Judy Goldsmith in the most recent term, is now employed by Catholic's for a Right to Choice, or whatever that organization is, recently told me that that was her first meeting that she attended of NOW and it was that conference and to hear Alice Rossi's paper.  Mary Jean had grown up, not only as a Catholic, but all of her education had been in Catholic schools and a Catholic college so that this was, you know, a lot of it was just startling to her.  Alice Rossi, I remember, talked about the religious view of some people that sexual intercourse is only for the purpose of procreation, not for recreation.  I had never thought in those terms before.  It was a brilliant paper and—

01:18:20

Alice Rossi is a wonderful person. I first met her in 1965 as part of my university work.  We had a conference on Women in Science and a science sorority, professional sorority on campus, asked me to help them put this thing together and we invited Alice Rossi to keynote and that was the first time that I had met her.  For part of that day-long conference we put together a panel of several married couples who were both in science, man and wife. I remember that Alice and I were on that panel and found out, I guess we were talking about how you juggle career and home and family, and I remember Alice telling about her experience in getting a housekeeper or babysitters, because she and her husband have always, as a team, only go to institutions that will take them both. He is in Survey Research and she is a Sociologist. They are now at Amherst but were at the University of Chicago at the time that I first met her. She told about when she would hire somebody as a housekeeper to be with their three children, she always looked for somebody as nearly like herself as she could find so that the children would have the values and all of this, of course, that wasn't easy to do to find someone to do that job who was a lot like Alice.  After a number of not too satisfactory efforts she found this older woman who was kind of maternally hefty and her grammar wasn't perfect and she was a marvelous cook and she loved to read to the kids and have them sit on her lap and rock them -- Alice is, I don't know if you know her at all, but she's tall and slender and kind of dignified and scholarly, scholarly to look at and to listen to -- so this was a total contrast and the children had never been happier. She realized how foolish it was of her to think that her children were not going to learn to speak proper English if they were exposed to this wonderfully loving person whose grammar wasn't perfect and who maybe didn't talk about world affairs or whatever.  Anyway, her children are marvelous, they're all adults now. She recently did some research with her son as a matter of fact, her number one child, which I read about. Another thing that she and I found that we had absolutely in common was the emphasis on birthdays in our household, that we don't do something else if it's a child's birthday and we go to school programs and have certain priorities.

MA:	   Were many of the women that you worked with in NOW married with children?  Would you say that was the majority?

KC:    I don't know if it was the majority but there certainly a lot, Betty Friedan for one, Muriel Fox.

01:21:56

MA:   When did Gloria Steinem come into the organization?

KC:    I really don't know the date.

MA:   It was certainly not within the first two or three years?

KC:    No, it wasn't. Let's see, she started Ms magazine 15 years ago, or 16 by now, she has now sold it you know.

MA:	  To an Australian? The last Ms magazine I looked at the first page to see if it noted that it was from Australia.  It doesn't yet.

KC:   I don't think that it is going to come from Australia is it?

MA:  I wanted to see the ownership, it didn't note a change in ownership on the masthead.

KC:	  I think the final arrangements and final contracts and all of that has just very recently taken place. This isn't something that I just think, it is something that Bella Abzug told me. Last Friday I had an hour interview with Bella Abzug and Gloria Steinem together and they were in Gloria's office at Ms magazine, or at the Ms Foundation. Maybe Gloria will be staying with the Ms Foundation, I don't know that.

MA:  What was your interview about?

KC:	   It was for the Annenberg American Government course and it was the lesson on interest groups in political movements so the audio tape will be just this one conversation, well, we talked for over an hour and only a half hour will go on the tape but it will be edited down.  It was a description of the contemporary women's movement and what stimulated the rebirth and a little bit about the ERA campaign and then where do we go from here and how do we get there.

MA:	   Did you concur with their thoughts about the rebirth of the movement?

KC:	   I think so. However, neither one made any mention at all of the Kennedy Commission on the Status of Women or the State Commissions or the Continuing Education, these strands, which I think were just terribly important, and the Citizens Advisory Council and all of the material that they put out, so I added that -- it was a three way conversation.

01:24:27

MA:	  What do you see as important about the state commissions and continuing education?  Where do those strands fit in?

KC:	   Doing the public education, fishing up of information about what the life of American women really is, what the facts are, the circumstances and what public policy exacerbates these circumstance and what public policy needs to be changed in order to make things better. This was going on ...I just can't tell you how many publications, conferences, speeches; I used to give 30-40 speeches a year around this date to all different kinds of groups.  Our conferences were all very, very well planned and well conducted, with a lot of perceptible changes.  Anyway, this laid the groundwork that was absolutely necessary and the kind of thing that NOW as an organization never did, or didn't do in the same kind of way.

MA:   The kind of indepth research that you did in Wisconsin, for example, on the laws that were on the books?

KC:	  That's right. And getting the word out and evidence that, in fact I was recently introduced a month or so ago when I spoke at the AFL-CIO thing somebody was saying, "Does she look like a bra burner?" Well?

MA:   They were just saying that?

KC:	   My response was that nobody would know the difference!  I think that to counteract what a lot of the national press and a lot of the local press elsewhere was doing to ridicule the women's movement and to highlight aspects or activities or things, either highlight, exaggerate, or make-up. Those things got counteracted by people who...I told you earlier I think on a tape that often I would go someplace out of state and people would be so surprised when they saw me and I never knew if they were disappointed or relieved but certainly they were surprised. That's another of the sort of serendipity I think Commissions on the Status of Women, while they may have been regarded as establishment by self styled radicals had the same program that the so-called radicals, or self styled radicals had, but pervaded in a way that was acceptable to those who listened and heard.

MA:   It didn't alienate people.

01:27:41

KC:	   I remember the time I was invited by the Catholic Diocese here in Dane county, or whatever the Diocese is, to address a luncheon, annual affair.  Two things stand out in my mind about it: 1) that I had surprisingly affirmative response, I mean I crafted what I said in ways I was thinking these women who are in the audience have a lot of very negative views of me, some.... I didn't rush in there talking about abortion rights.  I talked about the care of children and the nurturance and the necessity for women who have to work and who need their children cared for.  Anyway, I always tried to be honest, that I didn't have to work at, but to say things in ways that would not alienate people. What I remembered about the.... they always had a priest who would either introduce me or make some comments, and one of them asked, I can't even remember what the question was from one person in the audience and it was kind of a hostile question and the priest interceded it was an odd homonym kind of question which I cannot remember but I do remember I was wearing a red silk dress, and he said, "Just look at her, her very costume is a statement."  He meant that affirmatively, that I looked like a lady I suppose or whatever.  He also said to me privately, afterwards when we sat down to lunch, he said "Gee that was a good speech!  You talk just like a man."  "You missed the whole point of what I said didn't you?"

MA:   "You talk just like a man"

KC:	   Because it was logical and rational and I didn't hem and haw and I didn't giggle I suppose.  But, I gave him what for!  I said, "That is not a compliment and you certainly missed the whole point of what I was saying."

MA:    Did he hear you?

KC:    I think so, he kind of thought about that.

01:30:18

MA:	   It's during this time, in 1966, that you were the Woman of the Year; the Business and Professional Clubs of Madison chose you as Woman of the Year.  I was thinking about that and I wanted to ask you what community, friends and family thought about your involvement in all of this wild, new radical stuff?

KC:	   My family certainly approved.  I've told you that my neighbors were so helpful with my own children because they knew that I was doing something on behalf of women and they wanted to repay me.  There were some people, I suppose some real conservative people who thought I was some kind of a nut and others....

MA:	   I imagine your work in Wisconsin to had layed the groundwork for a lot of acceptance for you too.  It's not as though you just ran off to Washington, D.C. to form this group.

KC:	   Of course that work actually began in Wisconsin just in 1963, other than the continuing education which had started a year or two before that.  The Milwaukee Sentinal, if you were looking at my vitae or those award things, very soon after that named me Wisconsin Woman of the Year or Doer of the Decade -- no that was Theta Sigma Phi that did the Doer of the Decade in 1970 -- 

MA:   1967, Wisconsin Woman of the year.

KC:	   That particular thing made me very popular with my son, not that I can remember a time when I wasn't in his reasonably good graces, but the Milwaukee Sentinal put out a special edition and had a whole page, that was during the glory years of the Green Bay Packers, so on this one page of people they were honoring in Wisconsin was a man named Kellet who had headed up the Kellett Commission on Higher Education and me and the Green Bay Packers, the whole...

MA:	   And David thought that was just wonderful!

KC:    That's right, so I told him I was an honorary Green Bay Packer.

01:33:23

End of interview session 9
Tenth Interview Session (December 1, 1987), Tape 10

00:00:09

MA:	   You had talked about the various activities and platforms that NOW supported.  I was reading in an article that NOWs shift toward more radical issues had a lot to do with changes in the social climate, Eileen Hernandez being president in 1971 a point was made that other more conservative groups were taking certain issues so NOW could concentrate on more radical issues.  There was a discussion of individual members undergoing concsciousness raising experiences and that changed their perceptions and also a linking of humanism and feminism in the movement and that that was significant and that was why racial issues began to be talked about more.

KC:	   I can't imagine what article you must have been reading!  I know that there are a lot of different perceptions and different things being written.  Many of the ones I read are written by people who were not in evidence and who either picked up a little hearsay.... I just read one of the women in this national women's conference committee which just had its tenth anniversary of the Houston Conference meeting in Washington.  Someone is doing a little survey of many of the things that are happening locally that demonstrate how mainstream feminism really is these days in the United States.  It should be an interesting document when it's finished.  She sent me a rough draft of the introduction she was writing, she was going to clear up misconceptions.  She had more mistakes on one page, for example, identified Betty Friedan as a member of the Commission on the Status of Women because Betty happened to be at that conference in 1966 and had dates wrong.  She also had said that originally NOW stood for the National Organization of Women and a few years later that was changed to the National Organization for Women.  That is absolutely wrong!  I was one of the people who dreamed up the name.  There were eight of us sitting at this table and it was always the National Organization for Women.  I phoned the woman who was writing this to give her some corrections of dates and these few corrections and told her that and she said "somebody from the Philadelphia Chapter told me that."  This is the way history gets written sometimes.

00:02:57

It is true that Eileen Hernandez who is a Black woman who was married to a man named Hernandez and she does speak some Spanish so she is kind of a triple threat person.  Eileen has a degree in political science and acts as a consultant out in San Francisco.  Eileen was on the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission, on the very first commission when it was established in 1965 and was in that capacity when NOW was first formed so that she was the first vice president elected—I don't know whether to take the time on a tape to tell about the legal business that NOW got into before our feet were even wet –

MA:	   I think that would be important.

KC:	   At the founding conference in October of 1966, which took place in Washington a few months after we actually started the organization, the election of officers took place.  That's when Betty Friedan was elected president and I was elected chair of the Board.   They wanted to elect Eileen Hernandez, known to folks through her EEOC official capacity but there would be a conflict of interest.  The airline stewardesses had asked NOW to work on their behalf.  They had brought a complaint before the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission; they were being forced to retire either at the age of 32 or when they got married, whichever came first because then the sort of "playboy bunny" image would be gone, according to the owners of the airline. They had presented a complaint that this was discrimination and the EEOC had failed to take the complaint seriously or to act on it at all.  They wanted NOW to push the EEOC in some way to force them to get a ruling on their complaint.  Eileen Hernandez was on the EEOC although she was intending to resign because she was kind of irked with the lack of seriousness that was being given to the sex based discrimination.  Therefore, she could not, while that case was pending, take, and NOW went on record as wanting to support the complaint of the stewardesses, so Eileen couldn't take the vice presidency of NOW at that moment.  So we elected Anna Arnold Hedgman who was a black woman from New York and on the New York City Council with Anna Arnold Hedgman's understanding that she would hold the slot and serve as vice president until Eileen did resign and would be able to function as vice president of NOW.  However, because the organization had absolutely no money, except five bucks a head, and we couldn't afford to print stationery first with Anna Arnold Hedgman's name and then later on with Eileen's name, we decided to print it just once with Eileen's name but not to use the stationery until she could be officially in office.  Well, we mentioned on an earlier tape of some of Betty Friedan's paranoia thinking the CIA or somebody was watching, "big brother" at least.  Somebody found out about the printing of this stationery –we had not used a piece of the stationery—and immediately accused NOW of doing something illegal, it wasn't really illegal. Betty Friedan had a summons to appear in court, this was just about Christmas time, our conference had been in October and I can remember telling Betty "Ok, you take all of the summons on Christmas and Easter and I'll take them on Hanukkah and other Jewish holidays." In jest we made that bargain and that agreement. That was kind of a rat smelling event from the very word go.  In any case, that's how Eileen Hernandez got involved in the organization. When she resigned from the EEOC she became vice president.  In 1970, at the Chicago annual, it wasn't an annual conference, we had to have a national conference at least once every 18 months, so we had one in Chicago, in fact the date of it is probably on the red poster, the thing on my desk 

MA:    March 22, 1970.

KC:	  That was the date the Chicago meeting went.  Betty and I stepped down from our slots and Eileen was elected president.  

00:08:15

I think we've already mentioned that at the 1970 conference the question came up whether the sexual preference should go on the agenda.  The idea failed.

MA:	  Right, we did talk about that and there was also the labor issue that came up.

KC:	   No, the labor issue had come up on ERA two years before that, in fact 1967 at our first annual meeting after we were really functioning as an organization. That was the time at which the UAW women felt obliged to leave, which was a great loss to the organization.  Nobody walked out after this 1970 meeting but the issue was very much alive.  I told you, either on the tape or off the tape, that my own foot dragging had to do with the precariousness of the organization as it stood and taking one more, what at the time would have seemed an outrageous position, seemed premature.  

MA:	   Do you think other members would have concurred?  That their reasoning was like yours, being concerned about the precariousness of the organization?

KC:	   Yes, I think that was the reasoning of a great many people and there were a great many others, I don't know what the numbers or percentages would have been, who were still so unaccustomed to the whole notion of even talking about lesbians and homosexuality and homophobia was not a word that I knew or may even have not come into our language yet.  I know that gay meant light hearted to me.  I think there was a great deal of ignorance and lack of familiarity and almost a phobia of just something strange that people aren't accustomed to. There were quite a few people in the organization who were "out" and who identified themselves as lesbians which didn't bother anybody, or if it bothered anybody I didn't hear about it, so there was no isolation or shunning or segregating and, in fact, I can't remember which year our national meeting was in Houston, I think that was in 1974, when the house detectives in the hotel were apparently bent on enforcing laws about consenting adults or nonconsenting adults so that the word went fast among the organization to watch your step because people are out watching. That was a real united organization at that time, people looking out for one another, that was at a later time.  

00:12:02

I don't know what more radical notion anybody was writing about.  It is true, and I think I have already mentioned, that Betty Boyer began WEAL, Women's Equity Action League, to concentrate solely on employment and education issues which was predominantly to avoid anything on reproductive control.  There may have been other issuses that she was wanting to avoid at the time but that didn't mean that NOW removed whose issues from our agenda.  In fact, the Bill of Rights that NOW produced in 1967 is essentially the same, I think sexual preference was added after that time, but I'm not sure there were any other major issue areas.  Whatever someone thought became more radical, maybe you have other specific

MA:	   Prison reform issues, issues of racial discrimination, that's where they were talking of humanism and feminism that this article equated that joining with Hernandez' presidency.

KC:	   I suppose that the fact that Hernandez is black.

MA:	   It was the issue of the Viet Nam War was raging at the time and so the article was stressing NOW's broadening, I guess you would say.  I don't know that you would say it was more radical but moving into areas which were not specifically feminist areas.

KC:	  There was a concern for women offenders that wasn't exactly new, Commissions on the Status of Women had been concerned.  In fact, even the League of Women Voters had had a big project on jails and looking at treatment of women in jails, which is not to say that those are or are not radical, they certainly are important and that is, in fact, an old feminist concern back from the sufferage days when prison reform 

MA:   Dorthea Dix

KC:	   Yes, and the vote seekers who were jailed because of their behavior in Washington. They got in there and saw the conditions and immediately had one more fish to fry.

MA:	   I guess that's part of this questionning, we tend to forget the roots.  People who write about these organizations act as though everything sprung up at that moment.

KC:	   Of course there were black men and women both on our first National Board of NOW and the Statement of Purpose is one of nondiscrimination on any grounds.  That was the only litmus test that was given to the membership in the organization from the very beginning.

MA:	   I'll give you another example which has to do with lesbian rights which I think is interesting. I read a quote that "the women's liberation groups caused NOW to support lesbian rights because NOW was able to see that the women's liberation groups had done so without serious repercussions".  Of course it is in 1971 that NOW does make a statement about that.

KC:	  That sounds to me as though it was written by someone who had been in a campus based women's liberation group.

MA:   From your experience, does it ring a bell?

KC:	   No it doesn't. But that doesn't...I'm sure there must be some element of validity in the statement.  I don't believe that NOW as an organization added that platform to its agenda because it took a look at some of the women's liberation groups and said "well it doesn't matter."

00:16:44

MA:	   Let's take this to a more personal level. How did the change occur for you, as one founding member of NOW?  Would you from the very beginning have been willing to put this in? You were concerned with the overall organization, you've stated that.

KC:	   I never saw, and it was a long time coming, why the issue of gay and lesbian rights needed to be an agenda item.  I do not believe in oppression or persecution or keeping people out of any opportunity.  I had no idea of the extent of the discriminatory and really horrible kinds of treatment and the necessity for people who were homosexual to keep that identify a secret.  I really had no idea.  I remember when I was chair of the Board of NOW I was receiving information materials from lesbians who belonged to NOW who would send me magazines and articles.  I kept in my head, come and join NOW and fight on behalf of equal opportunity and rights, etc. We weren't keeping anybody out because of their race, color, creed, previous conditions of servitude or sexual preference and anyone was welcome.  I thought "why is it a special issue?"

MA:   You didn't see it as being like race, or some other more clearly visible discriminatory factor?

KC:	   I guess so, not as a special category. I had a long time.... I can remember returning from Board meetings with friends on the airplane and discussing ... Mary Eastwood, who was one of the founders and is a Washington attorney who began an organization called Human Rights for Women which didn't really compete with NOW but was a supplement to it.  Mary was a little bit affected by some things going on in NOW. That wasn't unusual, a lot of people wanted their own agenda to go...I remember Mary saying to some of us that "in theory", she was a theoretical lesbian, she herself wasn't a practicing lesbian, but she could see the whole rationale on an intellectual level, which strikes me as interesting. Charlotte Bunch, the writings of Charlotte Bunch I think are very revealing and interesting to some of us who are not homosexual but who find out what life and...  

MA:   You were talking about the writings of Charlotte Bunch.

KC:	   Probably if I had read some of those things at that time it would have been helpful to my understanding.  But I couldn't understand what Mary Eastwood was talking about not having read Charlotte Bunch or anything similar to that.  I can remember talking with friends on the plane coming back from these when neither one of us understood what it must be like to be a homosexual and wishing that we had more understanding and being open to the idea of having more understanding and certainly not being discriminatory in our own or tolerating other people.  The leap from there to making it an agenda item was still a very long leap.

00:21:41

MA:	   It sounds like the leap from consciousness raising to action.  It sounds in a way maybe that the processing you all did around this issue was somewhat like what we would call today "consciousness raising" don't you think?

KC:	   I don't know; I have no idea. I think it was only at the Houston conference, which was only ten years ago, it was not a NOW sponsored thing although NOW is one of many, many organizations supporting it, that Betty Friedan made her public statement in favor of including sexual preference.

MA:   It took her a bit longer didn't it for her to feel comfortable with that?

KC:    I guess.

MA:   Again, that is the general impression that I have gotten from my readings.

KC:	  Betty is a very outspoken and a very honest....Betty has integrity and she has courage.  Even though she knew she would be criticized by not coming out with a statement of that kind.  For years she just refused to do it because she didn't, in her heart-of-hearts think that ought to be an agenda item so she wasn't going to be pushed into acquiescing.

MA:   I understand.

KC:   I don't know what other people....

00:23:20

KC:	   I suppose in a way the whole women's movement became more radical. When you look at all of the old mainline organizations that have gradually adopted the whole agenda so that in fact NOW isn't cutting edge necessarily anymore. There is hardly an ongoing organization that has the name "women" somewhere in its title whether it's religiously oriented or racially oriented or whether it's Business and Professional Women or AAUW, Leagaue of Women Voters, Church Women United, a whole snag of organizations that rarely had more than one or two feminist agenda items, now have the whole agenda. The whole National Plan of Action that was adopted at Houston is now agenda for most of these organizations. So yes, I suppose NOW did become more radical along with the rest of the women's movement.

MA:   You attribute that to what?

KC:	   To more and more people knowing what was happening, thinking about it and taking action and knowing how slow the process is of change. Then of course, we had a few years in the 70s where legislative changes and public policy changes did take place. We had the organization of the National Women's Political Caucus, the National Association of Commissions, and implementation finally of the Civil Rights Act Title VII, passage of the Women's Educational Equity Act, legislative changes, the Equal Credit in 1963, Title IX, and the enforcement finally of the Equal Pay Act and some changes being made at the state level with state laws, antidiscrimination laws, in the behavior of the employment service people who were gradually being educated.  A lot of things were happening.  In 1972 Congress finally passed the Equal Rights Amendment and we all assumed that that would be ratified over night.  In 1973 the Row vs Wade decision, we figured we could put that issue to rest. We were living in some dream worlds!

MA:   We certainly were.

KC:	  With each step forward more people were please and got in the act and could push on and did a little deeper and branch out a little bit more.

MA:	   Do you think each step forward also caused raising expectations?

KC:    Of course.

MA:	   So, the idea of relative deprivation, that one becomes more aware of what they don't have the more they have, in a sense.

KC:	   I suppose with some people.

MA:	   It's an idea a major historian has used to talk about the women's movement, actually.  That change doesn't take place for ... that women do not develop a group consciousness until a lot of changes have taken place and you begin to focus on what's coming next.  That the group consciousness increases as the changes take place. As you have described the state commissions and your organization I see that.  But, your story talks a lot more about grass roots than we read in the traditional history books.  I think that's where the story is here.

KC:	   I guess in my head I was running through the 1970's and some of the major things that took place.  

00:27:47

In 1974, our Wisconsin Commission on the Status of Women had a series of six regional meetings around our state on the subject of "Homemaking and the Family: Changing Values and Concerns."  That was the fancy umbrella title that we used for all six of these meetings which really translated into the economic status of the full-time homemaker. 

MA:   The title is so conservative.

KC:    It was deliberately so because we wanted all kinds of grass roots people and organizations to come.

MA:   Did they?

KC:	   Indeed they did! We had a different keynote speaker for each of these six meetings and we had the meetings in various places around the state, on college campuses which we chose because we could have the facilities at no cost, and also a lot of in kind services and help in the process. We had Libby Koontz, who was the director of the Women's Bureau as one of the speakers, she is black. A home economist from Cornell named Kathryn Walker who had done research on the relative amount of time and energy that men and women spend in the home and in child rearing and does that change when the wife is working full time outside the home. Catherine East came from the Citizen's Advisory Council to one of our meetings. June Menzies is an economist from Canada who had opened a whole new horizon for me with an article in a publication out of London, London England, called women speaking. It was a publication that I helped to promote in this country later on. She had done an article called "Women's Achilles Heel: The Unpaid Labors of Women in the Home." That was the first time, that was in the late 60's, that I read June Menzies article, that I made that connection that is so fundamental that why it is that anything women do is under valued and the whole patriarchal notion that .... and the translation into the paid labor force of these "for free" things that women are expected to do.  Anyway, June Menzies was another. Herma Hill Kay who is a law professor out at Berkeley, and who was co-author of the first law case book on sex based discrimination with Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Kenneth Davidson spoke at our meeting that took place here in Madison. My daughter, Sara, was the research assistant for this book. From this, I don't know if I have covered all six of the meetings and speakers or not, but from this array ...Esther Peterson was another of our speakers. Each of these main speakers came out of a different discipline and with a different point of view so that when we had all six of these things put together at the end we finally put out a publication called "Real Women, Real Lives" which had national distribution and is a beautiful document. From those meetings a whole battery of needed change in the law and in practice came to our attention in the kind of divorce reform that we finally passed in Wisconsin as a consequence, and the marital property, moving from our separate property to a community property state.  We are now the only state that has done that of the 42 separate property states in the country. Those were among the ideas that flowed from that series of meetings.

MA:	   And from women's experiences?

KC:	   Yes, exactly.  And also a lot of insights into welfare and the horrors of our welfare system and the need for humane reform, not the kind of reform our incumbent governor and incumbent president have in mind.  A lot of insight. These meetings were well covered by the press and got a lot of wide and good coverage in the state and locally of course. We had TV at each of the locations .... That was the kind of.... a lot of instant converts.  One of our state legislators, Mary Lou Munts, whose concern in the legislature was environmental concerns, ban the bomb and a few such -- I don't mean to minimize or deprecate her concerns –but she didn't see any reason why she should even come to this meeting but we persuaded her to do so. She came to the one here in Madison which Herma Hill Kay addressed and she couldn't believe sitting in these workshops the stories she was hearing from some of these women. As a consequence, she led the fight in the legislature for divorce reform and then for marital propterty.  The marital property was a long, long haul.  In fact, we kind of tease her a bit because she likes to claim such authorship credit for something that many, many people worked long hours over a ten year period to do, but it's fine with us if she wants to.

MA:   The politician in her.

KC:    Right.  

00:34:04

Anyway, the importance of .... The results of our Wisconsin meetings and the Wisconsin legislation were carried from here to the Houston planning, the International Women's Year. Wisconsin people who participated, Mary Lou Munts, Norma Briggs and Marian Thompson and others, were invited to testify before the Internation Women's Year Commission. Some of us were put on committees, as a matter of fact, as a demonstration that one thing leads to another, I was invited by the International Women's Year Commission when it was first created, Jill Ruckleshouse was its chair and Catherine East was on the staff, I was invited to be on the committee on homemakers rights, or whatever it was called, which was chaired by Martha Griffiths, a  Congress woman from Michigan who had been a keynote speaker at an earlier Commission conference here.  Catherine East told her that I had had all this experience with these 1974 meetings so I was invited to serve on that committee as a citizen member. Then, because of our Women and the Arts Conference which we had held at Wingspread, through the university's auspices, also in 1973, I was invited to serve on the Arts and Humanities Committee of the International Women's Year. Going in just as a citizen volunteer person just on these two committees I met other folks there and Jill Ruckleshouse asked me if I would come and work half time, first she wanted me to be the conference coordinator and I didn't want to be gone from home that long, so I finally took a half time deputy conference coordinator then when the administrations changed and Bella Abzug was appointed chair of the commission she really leaned on me. She had previously, back in 1971, had urged me to be her legislative aid in congress, which I would loved to have done but it didn't seem to fit into the family situation at the time. When she leaned on me to become the executive director and to be there full time, I can remember her saying "Come on now, you've turned me down once before" that was in the congress thing.  "You can't do it again!" I thought it would be fun, and of course it was. Gloria Steinem said during her luncheon presentation in Washington a couple of weeks ago that she measures her life, or divides her life before and after Houston. She thinks a lot of people can do that. I don't regret for a moment, even though I commuted every week, came home on Friday night and went back on Monday morning.

MA:   How long did you do that?

KC:	   Two years, nearly two years. The first year and a half I stayed with Catherine East and then she had the nerve to retire so she wasn't driving in from Arlington every day. Then another friend invited me to stay for three weeks I guess when Catherine East was on vacation, so she had me for six or seven months instead. I felt like the man who came to dinner!

00:37:40

MA:	   Tell me about....I think that this is a perfect transition point.  Would you like to talk about that experience as Bella's deputy and what that meant to you?

KC:	   I wasn't her deputy. She chaired the commission and I was the executive director which was a full time staff paid position.

MA:   What were you responsible for primarily?

KC:	   I guess it was while I was still there part time that I prepared the handbook for the state meetings. There were 56 state and territorial meetings, each had some federal funding and had certain guidelines. I wrote that manual of the guidelines and how to do the meeting and what not to do and what some of the options might be. As executive director we had a staff of 40 some people who had to be supervised and given assignments and check that things were happening and staff the Commission meetings which meant to have the position papers, agenda and information for the commissioners and keep the various committees functioning. Then in the preparation for the Houston meeting itself, I didn't have direct responsibility for finding a site and subcontracting to various people but I had to oversee the people who did have those things to do.

MA:   It must have been a huge job!

KC:    It was; and exciting!  It was where the action was so it was fun to be there and holding hands.  

00:39:51

Lots of times there was a high degree of paranoia or at least anxiety. The right wing, et al and some of the very reactionary members of congress were really harassing us. We had seven or eight lawsuits filed by the Eagle Forum and other fronts which took the time and energy of our legal counsel. There were letters from congress people -- it didn't take me very long to figure out which members of congress were friendly and which were not.  The friendly ones never wrote to us and the unfriendly ones, Jesse Helms and a guy named Miller from California and a couple of others, would send down, almost daily, letters. The International Women's Year Commission was provided certain housing and franking privileges by the State Department; that was our administrative headquarters. They didn't butt in to what we were doing, the substance of it.

MA:   You had an office then in that area?

KC:	   Yes. The first offices of the staff were actually in the State Building and then we were moved a few blocks away where we had more space and better space. According to State Department protocol, and perhaps that is true of all of the federal agencies, a Congressional letter came in a special kind of envelope and the response had to be made within either 24 or 48 hours and then the special envelope routed back through the State Department so they knew you really took care of it. That was a waste of time.

MA:   So every time Jesse Helms sent you a letter then, you had to respond?

KC:	  That's right, and I had to do it in a hurry. I did manage to perfect, or at least improve, my ability to dictate responses to correspondence. For the only, well practically the only time in my life, I had a really first rate secretary who was just secretary to me and to nobody else so I was able to paw through a whole big fat in-basket and within a half hour was able to organize it and then have her come in and dictate and give her the stuff to go back which was fine, otherwise it would have wasted all of my time.

MA:   Seven or eight lawsuits and that continual kind of harassment that you had to respond to.

KC:	   Yes, and then the harassment was going on all around the country out in the states. The national organizations who were supporting the whole enterprise were doing yeoperson work to keep their own members, wherever they were, informed and to point out the lies and the misrepresentation that they were hearing otherwise. There was a lot of necessity to keep PR out in the hinterlands, not just in Washington.

MA:   It sounds like you were having to be very reactive also, rather than conceiving of your own policy?

KC:    We certainly had to do both.

MA:   And you were able to do both?

KC:    The conference came off and it was a success!  I will say that there was anxiety throughout.

MA:    I'm sure!

KC:	   I've told a few of these little things in Washington two weeks ago when it was my turn to say a few words, that some of us on the staff felt when the conference was over we were going to write a book; we were going to call it "Houston Behind Closed Doors" and tell some of the things that didn't appear to the public.  I told a few from the podium.

MA:   What would have been your primary contributions to "Houston Behind Closed Doors"?

KC:	   Maybe some of the cliffhanging—well just one little illustration.  Not six weeks before the—the conference was in November—and it was actually Labor Day, but about two weeks after Labor Day, which got into the middle of September—a man had been contracted before my appearance as executive director to arrange the exhibit area, the huge exhibit area, several hundred booths contracted, sold, and arranged.  You know, anybody who wanted a booth to sell their stuff or show or sell could arrange for a certain size, and I guess the cost depended on how much space they wanted.  Anyway, this man vanished—he was nowhere—with all of his records.  We didn’t know who had signed up for what, who had paid in advance, who wanted what, and it took our lawyers a couple of weeks.  We didn’t even know he’d vanished and the person who was in charge of communicating with him didn’t even tell us for a while, so some when past planning—felt obliged to say she couldn’t reach him anymore.  We finally got in touch with his wife, who said yes, he’d gone off with another woman—she wasn’t sure where he was either, and if we found him to please let her know.  We finally did manage to trail him up in Maine or someplace and by threatening to throw him in jail, he finally reappeared long enough to turn over what records he had, which were not too well kept, so we weren’t certain about financial, at least we had a list of the people we thought were going to--

Begin side 2, tape 10

MA:   The weeks had dwindled down to very few....

KC:	   And one young woman on our staff, Susan Reuben, who looked about 12 years old, I know she was more than that—in fact she was at the 10 year anniversary,  I was so happy to see her—volunteered to take over. She had never done anything like that in her life. She got assistance from a couple of the other staff people and, by dint of not getting off the phone I guess, put the thing together.  There was so much anxiety close to a few weeks before we went down to Houston and there were many other things, that's just one illustration of a lot of things that were happening.  

00:47:18

The whole housing arrangement was so poorly planned to start with. Instead of having people make their own hotel reservations in Houston and leaving the responsibility with the hotel, which should have been done, the paranoia for fear of the Schlaflyites or some other bad guys would take all the rooms meant that the decision was made, again, not by me, to have all these housing reservations come through the Washington office. There were more terrible decisions made out of this fear and anxiety. The woman who was housing me this last stint, Norma Metzner, is a clinical psychologist, and I would of course go home every day

MA:   And get therapy?

KC:	   Yes, get some free therapy. She finally realized, as I would tell her, that I wasn't the only one who needed a little therapy.  She offered to come in over the lunch hour and anyone who wanted a sack lunch to come, and just talk about what some of the problems were. It was wonderful for that staff! When we got down to Houston and I went in to look over the exhibit area to see how things were going, Norma went in with me, we had traveled together to Houston, and when these young staff women, I don't mean to be ageist, but they were my daughter's ages, saw Norma they'd say "Everything's going to be alright." That was another free valuable thing.

00:49:03

MA:	   It sounds wonderful! How were decisions made? It sounds like, were there a lot of people making individual decisions?

KC:	   Yes, and there was turnover. There had been three different chairs of the Commission. First, Jill Ruckleshouse, appointed by President Ford. Then, when the Ruckleshouse's moved to the west coast, Betty Athanasakis, who is a judge from Florida, was named chair. When Carter was elected, he changed membership on the Commission and the chair. Meanwhile, staff changes were being made.

MA:   And Bella was the last chair then?

KC:	   Yes. Some of the decisions about the conference in Houston, and some of the poor decisions, were made by a woman, Hillary somebody who then was replaced. She was replaced in large part because Catharine East and I thought she was doing such a terrible job that the whole thing would have been a problem. The next conference coordinator was a woman who didn't get along well with the staff, Lee Novick. She was a very difficult person to...she had worked with Bella when Bella was in congress and the two of them used to shout at each other over the phone all the time and want to involve me in the phone conversations. Finally my therapist advised me not to be available and that when I needed to call to Bella I would call her myself in New York and not get in the middle of this shouting match, which would upset me, I'm not accustomed to that as I've told you before.

MA:   That's not your style.

KC:   Well when people behave irrationally it is upsetting to me.

00:51:04

MA:	  That's very interesting. It sounds like you were part of the front line people who were actually doing the work but that there were political appointees which kind of....

KC:	   The Commission, the International Women's Year Commission, is like our Status of Women Commission, appointed by the top and they make policy and they aren't paid, their travel and expenses were taken care of but they had no salary for serving on the Commission. That was true of Bella and Mim Kelber and the whole Commission, Alan Alda, Jean Stapleton and people less well known, but presidents of national organizations served on that Commission. It was always interracial and there were men as well as women. Several members of congress were always on the Commission, Senator Percy, and then editors of the Women's magazines, John Mack Carter and Sy Chessler and I don't know what her name is but from the Ladies Home Journal. Anyway, the editors of these big, Red Book and Good Housekeeping, who were marvelous in promoting it through their own publications and sister and friendly publications that they knew. The Commissions were very high powered, hard working, people who came to the meetings, did their homework, cared very deeply about the success.

MA:   They did, the appointees?

KC:    Oh yes, and were very well chosen.

MA:   Do you attribute that -- was that Jimmy Carter's doing?

KC:	   It was true of the previous Commission members as well as the Carter appointees. I would say that both Ford and Carter probably had advice from very good people and had fairly broadly based....

MA:   So they made policy and you paid members carried it out?

KC:	   That's right. We provided position papers, working papers that would give them options. They would decide that there ought to be something on homemaking and then throw it at us. We would have to know a lot about the substance and prepare the materials and present it for their approval.  

00:53:48

I learned a lot about staff work, particularly from Catherine East, who had been a staff person in the bureaucracy for many years.

MA:   That was going to be my next question.

KC:	   That was a new experience for me.  I had always been at the Commission end of things and not on the paid staff end.

MA:   What did you learn about it?

KC:	   Well, I learned –I suppose I could back up a little because what I said isn't totally true because when I chaired the Wisconsin Commission on the Status of Women we had no staff for the first ten years, so I did both.

MA:    You were the staff!

KC:	   I had to learn to make recommendations and not decisions; to be very timely in the preparation of position papers; I didn't even know what it meant to "script" a plenary session.

MA:   What does it mean?

KC:	   That means that when a commission person for example, I suppose this could be true for any high powered person who has a staff to do their work, is going to conduct a meeting, they want not only an agenda but they want to know exactly who is going to introduce whom, and if they are going to do the introducing, exactly what they say, and have it all written out like a regular script. In fact, when we did this closed circuit television from Washington, two weeks ago, with four of us on the platform, later on we were commended by some people who said "My that was good! Who scripted it for you?" I said "We didn't have a script! We had no idea what questions were going to come". That was really a high compliment if they thought that we knew what we were going to say before we said it. Anyway, that was another thing that I learned. We had to always be way ahead of the action. Boy it was something when the Commission would be meeting and the staff would sit around the outside edge, those of us who were needed in the meeting, and they called for a piece of paper, if it was something that we hadn't thought of to do that was the worst thing of all.

MA:   You had to...

KC:	   Second guess what they'd need and have it ready and enough copies.

MA:   Were you fairly successful?

KC:	   I think so. I think because we had some remarkably good staff people. We had a few that were terrible and we had a few on loan from the State Department who some were better than others.

MA:   It sounds so exciting!

KC:    It was exciting!

00:56:45

MA:    And every Friday night you would fly back to Madison for the weekend?

KC:	  That's right. To be sure that my husband had food in the house for the next week and to do his laundry and my laundry and decide what clothes to wear the next week. I worked out a real system of packing though, I learned that, which I passed along to many other people. I would wear my travelling costume, that was my Monday, Wednesday and Friday suit, with a change of blouse so that I could have a different blouse on Wednesday from the one I had on Monday and Friday; then I would pack my one Tuesday-Thursday outfit so I felt as though I wasn't wearing a uniform; and then the next week when I'd go I'd have two different outfits. So with four outfits I could survive the season.

MA:   How nice.  I've always wondered how people did that.

KC:	   I have a friend who was in Hawaii for years and is now in South Carolina, she does prison education of some kind, who could travel for a week with just carrying her purse! I don't know how she managed; I can't do that!  It was tiring, very, very tiring, and sometimes I thought I should have consulted with a real psychiatrist.

MA:	   To have to do all the cooking for Hank and all of the laundry in addition when you came home, that must have been quite a burden.

KC:	   It was quite a burden.

MA:   The kids are gone by now?

KC:    Right. I think Janet was in Madison at the University at the time.

00:58:41

MA:	   In terms of your feminist learning, or your political, did anything new for you come out of this experience?  We've talked about the technical learning, learning to work with the staff and learning scripting and that sort of thing. What about the personal learning?

KC:	   Once again, as has been true for 25 years, I met absolutely magnificent people, just salt of the earth, bright and accomplished. Nobody could have told me then, or can ever tell me now, that women are unequal in any kind of way. I suppose part of my behavior...I once applied for a job after I was, not that I really wanted it, but I was urged to please come to Washington and apply, this was after the IWY experience, and when I got there I was told by one of the committee people that it was saucered and blown and that the person had been....but they needed to interview some women, a woman at least. It was alright, they paid my way and I had a nice weekend.

MA:   And saw your friends.

KC:	   Right. They asked me what my management style is, my supervisory style, and I have no idea what my style is except that it is not management by objectives and it is not a very firm –it's laid back I guess. Also, I just assumed, and I think this was my style in the IWY job, that people will pretty much do their best if you expect it of them.

MA:   And you of course always do your best so that you are setting that model.

KC:	   I do, I certainly try to do. I certainly don't goof-off and I don't leave stones unturned. I also think that if people are harassed you need to offer a help, you don't just crack the whip. You find out what the snag is and what's slowing them down, if they're overbooked, how can we subdivide it and take the heat off, and don't expect that everybody functions at the same pace, that each person has her/his own rhythm and pace. I don't know if there is a name for that style.

MA:   We could call it the Kay Clarenbach style!

KC:    I suppose a lot of people function that way.

MA:	   Or perhaps a lot of women. How did your style work vis a vi the other women that you worked with? Did it seem compatible?

KC:	   I think so. Now my style is quite different from Catherine East. She is so thorough that and over does things from my... she probably thinks I'm a little sloppy or I'm willing to not to look up the last possible source for something, so Catherine is ...She expects people who work immediately with her to be more like she is and gets very annoyed when they're not. I don't know if she gets annoyed but she tells them she expects something better from them.  I think I don't tend to do that; it might be better if I did a little more of it.

MA:   But your style was successful for you.

KC:	   Yes, for me, and I was comfortable with it.  I had good relations with the staff people.

MA:   That says a lot I think.

KC:	   With most of them, except for a few who were a pain.

01:03:14

MA:   Two years of preparing for this conference.  When you got to the conference, what was it like?

KC:	   There were all kinds of snafus. In the first place, the hotel, not the big Hyatt where most people were staying, was not prepared for us. Our rooms were not ready, most were not going to be vacated until the next morning.  They had a big conference on and so for a whole day the whole lobby of this huge hotel was filled with our luggage, you could hardly walk. A couple rooms would be vacated but not ...People were just staying on couches or whatever or hunting up an alternate hotel. Again, the anxiety level, people were wondering "Is the Hyatt in cahoots with Schlafly, or is this other conference that is on something that the FBI has thrown in our way?" Ultimately, but not until well after the conference was over, did it occur to me that the conference coordinator, the one who left, had only booked the hotel for the precise days of the conference.  Hadn't told the hotel that probably 20,000 people would be coming in the day ahead.

MA:   Of course, because it began the following morning.

KC:	   Right. She had done the same with booking the conference center, which was a separate facility from the hotel -- they used the conference/civic center which is a huge thing. The night before we were to begin, at seven in the morning, there was a big wrestling match in the big auditorium with a ring in the center and chairs around which went until nearly midnight.  It was only at midnight that they could begin taking that stuff down and begin putting up our 2,000 chairs for delegates with the placards for each state, which had been carefully worked out in advance, putting up the big platform for our podium and our banner and the things that...Some of our staff people had to work all night long along with the janitors, who probably charged extra for having to work all night long. Now that again was not a mistake of the conference facility, but of our own staff prearrangement and, of course, she wasn't there to take the flack.

MA:   I'll bet you could have just rung her neck!

KC:	   We didn't figure out until after the fact that if we had booked it for the proper time, this wouldn't have happened. One little incident that I did tell in Washington two weeks ago was that we had a little pre-meeting the afternoon before of getting staff assignments and knowing where things were, etc., one of our people came rushing in and said "The Eagle Forum has been around and they've put up signals; they have signals all over the hotel and I have taken them down!" This heroic gesture. These were the Braille signs in the elevators that told sight impaired people what floor they were going to!  She had never seen them before so she very carefully removed them from all the elevators.

MA:   That's a wonderful story!

01:06:56

	   Let's move on to the Eagle Forum.  We read a lot about that in the press during the time of your conference, they probably got a third as much publicity as you did which, I remember thinking at the time, was unfortunate.
		
KC:	   Well, and of course they continued to throughout the whole ERA ratification effort. You would have thought that they were 50% of the population.  That was the media wanting to make it look like a cat fight and giving full credence. They created Phyllis Schlafly by giving her that kind of publicity.

MA:	   What was their presence like and what was the effect of their presence in Houston? Anxiety you've already mentioned and that I can certainly...

KC:	   For awhile, during the first day or so, they had pickets from some of their groups who would shout  outdoors, they didn't get into the building and then they had a counter meeting in another facility and that kept them pretty well occupied.

MA:   I remember that.

KC:	   Otherwise, except that we had out conference facility very well patrolled by the Houston police. We had to pay off-duty police quite a hefty bill for just patrolling the place.

MA:   The reason was just to make sure that they stayed out?

KC:	   Yes. Just to maintain order among our own people would not have required the kind of forces that were actually hired to do that. Then of course backstage, my family never knew I ever got to Houston because I never appeared on camera. I guess I had to be backstage making sure that the next contestant got out on time and that there was food for people backstage. Then there was a what was called a "sterile" area. We had four First Ladies there who came for part of the program, Betty Ford, Ladybird, Roselyn Carter, or were there only three?

MA:   I can't think of any others.

KC:	   Johnson, Carter and Ford, maybe that was it.  hey had to come in an entrance and exit that nobody else could use. There couldn't be cars parked within... and then there was a special staging area just for them where they went around to make sure nothing was bugged and noting was....

MA:   Did you deal with them personally, the First Ladies?

KC:    Well sure, I met them.

MA:   What did you think?

KC:	   I thought they were great. All three of them are gracious and friendly people. The other First Ladies were invited; Pat Nixon and Jackie Kennedy and they didn't come of course.

01:10:06

MA:	   In the participation at the conference, was there a lot of participation from ordinary women? I know that was the goal. I'm thinking of ordinary working class housewives.

KC:	   Yes. People are still saying to this day, and people who are observant, etc., that it is the most representative meeting that has ever taken place in this country. Gloria Steinem refers to it as a "Constitutional Convention for Women." Every state was mandated to have equitable representation based on race, religion, economics, occupation and I don't know what the rest were. By the time all of the states, all 56 states and territorial meetings had taken place, we in Washington had a rundown of how many and in what categories. Of course it was possible for very low income people to be elected delegates because the transportation was taken care of and the cost of getting there for all of the delegates.

MA:   That's wonderful!

KC:	   When we looked over the racial and economic...the shortfall, based on the population, on the demographics in each state, the shortfall was in white, middle class, elderly women. States had done such a good job of electing people who normally don't participate in these things or normally don't come that the National Commission had the option, according to the legislation, to fill any gaps with appointments. Of course they assumed the gaps they would have to fill would be racial and low income and instead, while they did name some racial and minority people in the few additional...what they really did was to name people, for example, like my friend Catherine Conroy from Wisconsin, who had declined to run as a delegate because she wanted to make space for somebody who doesn't normally get elected. Joy Simonson hadn't been elected a delegate from the District of Columbia, again, these are people who normally would have been at the top of the list but who deliberately stepped aside.  Anyway, the National Commission were able...We did have a complete rundown on the demographics so there were a lot of union people and working people and welfare recipients and homemakers.  There were a lot of ordinary folks. There had been, at the state meetings, a total of 130,000 people, mostly women had participated.

01:13:22

MA:   I attended in Washington State.

KC:    You had some right wingers didn't you?

MA:	   The right wingers actually took over in Washington State.  There was a Mormon delegation sent from Washington State; they were so very well organized.

KC:	   There was a Mormon delegation from Utah and Nevada and Hawaii of all places.  I didn't even know the Mormons were that strong in Hawaii.

MA:	   I didn't either. Those of us who were more liberal were not as well organized as the Mormon women. They came in with an agenda and were able to push the agenda through. They came with babies –it was an amazing phenomenon!

KC:    And in bus loads. Thirteen thousand showed up in Utah where they had been prepared for at most 5,000!

MA:	   Our history should tell us something about that. We should have known in the states where the Mormon population is high.

KC:	   A lot of things we should have known!

01:14:29

MA:	   What is the status today, if I could just jump ahead just for a minute, of Schlafly and the Eagle Forum?  I haven't heard since the ERA has quieted down.

KC:	   They don't have such a visible target right now.

MA:   But they exist?

KC:	   Oh yes they exist and are having their heyday with the Reagan administration and encouraging the kind of nominees he puts forth and probably are helping to keep him from getting too close to an agreement with the Soviets. That has been Schlafly's...She cares a lot more about cold war policies and anti-soviet and red baiting than she does about ERA and abortion. That is her longstanding interest and concern so I don't know what her personal relationship with the administration is but her ilk certainly are in constant communication with Congress and with various agencies.

MA:   She has become, in a sense, main stream politically at this time.

KC:    You mean now that the right wing is....

MA:   Since the right wing is more powerful.

01:16:01

	   How long did it take to unravel, to put away the conference?  You did all the statistics on who was there....

KC:	   The conference took place in November of 1977 and the Commission went out of existence on April 1, 1978. By that time it was necessary to get materials to the archives and prepare a report for the president and congress. However, the publication of the report called "The Spirit of Houston" was not off the press –I've forgotten what day it came off the press – but it had to be mailed later. I did mention that it is such a gorgeous document. The woman who was primarily responsible for it was Mim Kelber who was Bella's speech writer and right hand and was co-director with her of this new National Women's Foreign Policy Council. Mim, of course, was at our ten year reunion and I mentioned from the podium that Mim was largely responsible for the beautiful publication and that I share some of the responsibility for the depletion of the supply because it no longer exists. I think it is dreadful that that can't be reprinted and copies made available. The three years that I taught Women and Politics on the Milwaukee campus I used that as one of the required reading and bought out the remnants from the Women's Bureau and the Government Printing Office. Anyway, Mim spoke to me afterwards and said did I really think it would be possible to get it reprinted? I said I had no idea if it was possible. She doesn't know if the government printing office saved the plates and of course the photographs are what make the whole thing.  I mentioned this to my friend Joy Simonson with whom I was staying, she and Dick know the bureacuracy quite well, and she immediately said she thought possibly the Congressional Causus on Women's Issues might be a source to request of the government printing office and to trail and find out if it is possible. She promised to do that and said the Executive Director of that caucus owes her something!  She probably has asked by now but it would be a shame if it couldn't be reprinted. I would think a printer could photocopy this and make copies even without the plates.

MA:   I would think so, and make new plates.  Basically it was five months of work after the conference ended?

KC:	   Right. It was during that period that I did have Cuba trip, so if you want to talk about that next time....

01:19:17

End of interview session 10

Eleventh Interview Session (January 13, 1988), Tape 11

00:00:12

MA:   Kay, let’s talk today a little bit about your travels out of the country.

KC:	  They have been very little, so it won't take a long time. I just had a, I can't remember the date now but it must have been around 1970, had a visit to the Virgin Islands at the invitation of the Status of Women Commission there where, for the first time, black and white women from the three islands, St. Thomas, St. Croix and St. John met for several days to discuss the agenda of the women's movement. I've been four times to Hawaii which of course is no longer foreign territory. It was at the invitation, twice the invitation of the University of Hawaii, once in collaboration, the invitation came jointly from them and from the statewide Status of Women Commission and their four island commissions which were then called Mayor's Commissions on the Status of Women. I can't remember the year exactly, but it was after I was back in Madison after the International Women's Year experience, but not very long after, I was invited by the Aspen Institute in West Berlin, in fact when the invitation came I didn't even know there was an Aspen Institute there, but there is, to be there for a week's seminar on employment discrimination against women. That was internationally very interesting. I think on three or four occasions I have been invited into Canada, once by a university and once a human rights international organization and twice by the Status of Women National Commission in Canada.  

00:02:23

Other than that and my little Cuban expedition I really haven't been anywhere much outside of Dane County and Sparta. The Cuban trip had fascinations in many ways.  It was a one week trip and during a very brief interval of months really during which U.S. citizens were allowed by the U.S. State Department to go to Cuba.

MA:   When was this?

KC:	   This was in 1978 while I was still in Washington just at the closing days of the International Women's Year when we were mopping up after the Houston conference. The Washington Press Club chartered a plane to Cuba and made plans for a one week visit there. They had four empty seats in the plane and one of our journalist friends who is a member of the organization, Peggy Simpson, whose writing appears frequently in the magazine Working Women and also in many other places, she is a newspaper person actually, knew a lot of us in the women's movement and invited us to go along. There were four of us who were not...Norma Metzner, the psychiatrist/psychotherapist who was housing me for the last part of my stay in Washington; Kathy Bonk who was very active in NOW and is, in fact, she was the media connection person for the International Women's Year Conference in Houston and managed to get some 1,500 journalists to go to that conference.  I don't remember who else tagged along and were a part of the group. Peggy Simpson in fact was my roommate during that Cuba trip.  Before we left we knew that there had been a delegation of Cuban women at the Houston Conference, so we wrote to them. They were representing the General Federation of Cuban Women, which is a national organization. All the women in Cuba I guess automatically belong to it. So, we wrote to them, in fact had one of our friends, Joan Goodin, write it in Spanish, translate our wishes, saying that some of us would be there with this particular tour and would very much like to meet with some of the women from the Cuban Women's Federation.  We travelled by bus to the places that were outlined for us by the Cuban government.  It was really an intriguing opportunity to see what the island looked like and to meet with an awful lot of people.  When our bus arrived in Havana for the last two or three days of the week, we were met at the hotel by a translator from the Cuban Women's Federation, a young woman who sought out the four of us by name.... I guess Peggy Simpson constituted the fourth, even though she belonged to the Press Club. The four of us were very eager to meet with them. The Cuban Women's Federation had arranged, which we really only found out when we arrived in Havana, two cars with drivers and a translator in each car in addition to the driver, so that two of us U.S. women could be in each of these little cars with the translator and the driver.  We were asked: what did we want to see, what did we want to do? We were to tell them.  Norma Metzner wanted to visit a mental hospital and we all tagged along. That was an exciting, just a marvelous facility, it was amazing.  No one was idle. They had thousands of inmates doing constructive things, raising food or flowers that were actually used someplace; a carpentry place where they were building toy furniture and furniture for small children to furnish the many childcare facilities that were around. We visited childcare facilities and schools and whatever we wanted to. I was particularly eager to meet with some ordinary women in their own housing to see what kind of housing accommodations people had and how they came by them and what they cost. We had heard about the block meetings that go on all throughout Cuba so we really kind of wanted to sit in on one of those.  There were no holds barred, nobody said you can't go here or there, contrary to what one is often told about Cuba. I was also extremely impressed with the new family law code which had recently been adopted in Cuba. I had picked up a copy of it here before I went and had studied some other things so I wouldn't be totally ignorant.  In preparation for adoption of the new laws governing family relations, they had done a universal education activity.  Every person, or at least above a certain age in Cuba, read drafts and talked about and discussed in these communal gatherings which took place where they lived so they didn't have to travel or go anyplace for a meeting, and talked about what the changes would be, what the implications would be, what that would mean to...There is an actual statement in the Cuban family code now that so many women are employed outside the home that it is only fair that men do their share in the home and that every woman not be expected to do double duty.  We asked them how this was actually working out because Cuba is a Latin, macho history and are men really...One after another these women would tell us that whereas before the laws were changed their husband would, if he helped as much as to sweep the kitchen floor he would pull the shades so that no neighbor man would see him actually doing it. Now these same men will do the laundry and go out with great pride and hang it out on the line because they are doing their patriotic duty.  Of course, we did observe that men were taking youngsters to childcare facilities, nursery schools and doing shopping and all kinds of things that in the past they hadn't done.  I don't need to dwell that long on the Cuba trip but it was a real adventure and eye opener and one that I was really very glad to have had an opportunity to do.

MA:   Your general impression of Cuba then was one of seeing a great many changes that were beneficial to women?

KC:	   That's right. Then we met in meetings with the leadership of the Women's Federation and asked a great many questions and got a lot of information. Some of our people were a little skeptical that we were being fed a line, but I tended to take fairly literally what we were hearing because there was enough evidence around to demonstrate... I knew also the philosophy from which it was coming and one I think just works within that framework. Some of the information we had was the high degree of prostitution which in the old days, before the revolution, was virtually the only way rural women could get into town or women could support themselves and how that is virtually wiped out now. The introduction of sewing machines which, as one of my friends pointed out to me, Joy Simonson who was also on the trip but in a different group from ours, that while we think of women earning a living working at sewing machines here in the United States is not a very profitable or very great career to have, it was such a step forward for the Cuban women and it should be viewed in that light.  Also, their literacy campaign, which other socialist countries also of course have gone through in which anyone who could read and write almost by the age of 12 or 15 went out into the rural areas and taught other people to read and write and met with a great deal of resistance in some of the backwoods places, but just were dogged about it.  The literacy rate is infinitely higher than that in the United States; it puts us in many ways to shame.  It's a small country.  I hadn't realized at the time, a total population of 9 million, before any were exported to the United States.  In any case it was very exciting and I have heard, as I have just showed you the postcard I received from some of the Cuban Federation Women.  Five or six years ago a delegation of Cuban women was here in Madison as part of a national tour they were making and I was scheduled to meet with them.  Unfortunately, I was in the hospital, the only other time until this past year so I was unable to...I had one of my friends pick up a pair of earrings, which was kind of a joke. The young woman in Cuba who was our translator lost a gold earring while she was out with us and told us in great sorrow and shame the next day that she had borrowed those without permission from her sister and then had lost one and that those were earrings her sister had purchased in the United States on a trip here at some point.  When we got back from our Cuban trip Norma Metzner and I bought, as close to that as we could remember what it looked like, bought two pairs of gold earrings and sent them to her. Actually, we took them to the Cuban, you didn't call it embassy but what substitutes for an embassy if you didn't have official relations, and had them taken by pouch down so it didn't take a hundred years to get there. This young woman was part of the delegation that came to Madison five or six years ago. I felt so badly to have to miss them that I had one of my friends pick up another pair of earrings and go to the meeting to deliver them.

00:14:36

MA:	   It's very hard to answer questions about poverty, but how did you see the wealth of the Cuban people? Did you see major differences?

KC:	   No, we didn't see extremes. We didn't see anything in either the rural or the urban areas that looked like shacks or street people or extreme poverty, nor did we see anything that looked like extreme wealth. In fact, even moderately wealthy...Of course a lot of people had left. A lot of professional people and a lot of people with money had removed themselves from Cuba.  The level of living of the people who were very proud of these new buildings in which they lived and to which everyone had contributed in the work of building, were still very crowded and very meager. Television in most places where they had a state television channel, which I guess was just one channel that they have, but comfortable and the individual residents with whom we spoke when we asked how does this contrast with the space you had before and did you have indoor plumbing, and did you have this and that, this all seemed very upbeat by their standards.

00:16:29

MA:	  When you visited the Virgin Islands did you have the same kind of tour in that you saw a lot of things or did you simply talk with the women representatives?

KC:	   I didn't even leave the island of St. Thomas so I have no idea what the...There I was certainly impressed with the degrees of wealth and poverty, in such a small place there were dramatic differences. I also discovered that a relative of ours by the name of...somebody named Clarenbach who lived on St. Thomas, probably still does, turned out to be a second or third cousin of my husband's.  In any case, they had read in the local paper that I was going to be there and had been in touch and invited me to stay with them at the close of the conference and spend a day with them. Had I known how unpopular the name Clarenbach is or was among any progressive kinds of people and that was the makeup of the Status of Women, I might have gone under my maiden name instead.  They were nice enough people, this Bill and Priscilla Clarenbach. They were people who had amassed quite a lot of money at an early age here in the United States and had gone to St. Thomas to retire when they were 50 or thereabouts.  Like Midas, gold sticks to that man's hands, so what he had done was to buy up a mountain or a chunk of land and bulldoze it to death and develop it and put up filling stations and I don't know what all, housing too, and while I was there he was about to build what he was referring to as a "tourist trap" between the airport and the downtown shopping area.  He figured that anybody coming to St. Thomas generally flies in, or comes by ship, and would have to go through so he was having things to sell, ect.  They lived on the highest peak in St. Thomas and had a swimming pool and raised orchids and avocados.  Just totally exploiting the land as well as the people.

MA:   That must have been very hard to experience.

KC:	   It sounds strange, "hard to experience", having maids wait on you and a swimming pool to go into, but to do that knowing at whose expense it was being done was .... 

MA:   For you to have gone on a mission that had to do with human rights the contrast must have been dramatic.

KC:    Yes, it was.

MA:    Did any of the women at the conference ask you about your name?

KC:	   I don't believe so. I think the very fact that they didn't, suggests that they assumed that I was or I wasn't. They probably made an assumption one way or the other.

00:20:04

MA:   What was the status of women, or is, 1970 was a long time ago.

KC:	   It is a long time ago and I really don't know what may have happened in the Virgin Islands, although there were representatives from the Virgin Islands at the Houston conference so there certainly was some movement still ten years ago and probably continues to be. An important emphasis at the meeting I attended was this coming together of the native Black people and the sort of imported white people. There were class as well as race distinctions that were very apparent with efforts on the part of many...Once in a while I see this in Hawaii too, the white houlee that have moved from the mainland, not being accepted and making an effort to blend into the culture, etc. There are barriers, and there certainly were enormous barriers, I thought, in the Virgin Islands.  Therefore, the organizers of that meeting had regarded it as quite a coup to get as many of the Black women from all three islands to come and participate and feel a part of what was going on.

MA:   Did you have fairly good participation?

KC:	   Yes, I thought so. This isn't even the tip of the iceberg of the kinds of experiences that so many U.S. women have had in going to Mexico City, Copenhagen and Nairobi. I do regret that I didn't get to any of those places.

MA:   I have a friend who went to Nairobi and I've seen her slide show. It seems absolutely wonderful.

KC:	   I'm sure those are experiences that one can read about and look at videos and hear a great deal about and still never have what the actual experience does to you.

MA:   Because of the passion. It's impossible to translate that, I think.

00:22:34

KC:	   At least we all know now that the women's movement is not a fad and is not a creature of Ms. Magazine or a couple of kooks in NOW, but that it is, in fact, a worldwide movement. That Robin Morgan's title "Sisterhood is Global" is a reality and that particularly U.S. women, not just U.S. women, men too, are really so ignorant of the rest of the world. A lot of that ignorance is being broken down through this really worldwide women's movement.  It's going to take a long time, but at least we're headed in the right direction.

MA:	   Do you agree, I have heard criticisms of U.S. women that we tend to act as though we started the women's movement and we continue to lead the women's movement and women who have been out of the country and seen what other women are doing don't necessarily agree with that.

KC:	   I would think that is a very valid criticism that we have not heard enough about what has been going on elsewhere so there is a chauvinism and egocentricity and it is not unique to American women and is not unique to this subject of the women's movement. I think that it is probably true across the board that people in the United States tend to feel often that we are superior and ahead of and need to be first. Maybe the devaluation of the dollar will be beneficial.  Especially since World War II the United States has become more arrogant than ever and so it is not surprising. I don't think people necessarily need to be faulted because of their ignorance; they just need to be educated. I think that's what is going on with a lot of self consciousness on the part of the women's movement in this county to know that we didn't necessarily start things, in fact, it doesn't take a great deal of historic knowledge to know that the suffrage movement really got its big burst from Great Britain. Again, many of us do know how Sweden and Denmark, it surprises some people to know how many radical women's groups there are in the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, France and many of the European countries.  I think also a great surprise is in the Third World countries and the consciousness that is there and of course how far we have to go. The report from the end of the International Women's Decade called "Forward Looking Strategies" which is a magnificent report on the needs and recommendations on behalf of women all around the globe, is a remarkable educational tool in being fairly specific about what the situation is in various situations and who is doing what about that situation. Arvonne Frasier, whose name has appeared earlier in one of these tapes, is now at the Hubert Humphrey Institute for Public Policy or Public Affairs, whatever it is called, at the University of Minnesota, and her office did a very valuable precede of that very voluminous "Forward Looking Strategies" report. So that it’s quite—and their precede is very readable and understandable and something that is available to anyone who wants it.

00:26:59

MA:	   That's good to know. As an older feminist, what do you see the feminist movement doing in terms of older women?  Has that been an issue that has been of special interest to you?  You mentioned earlier something about the need for childcare but one of the problems with childcare is that the women who need the childcare are too busy to be lobbying for it and by the time one gets older they no longer need it and they move on to other issues. I see, you might say the graying of the women's movement in a sense, and do you think there are ramifications from that?  Do you think that the needs of older women are being discussed more?

KC:	   Well they certainly are being discussed and addressed. The healthcare and health insurance question, the nursing home situation, the numbers of older people who are poor -- I think part of the pressure from the women's movement has helped to keep the social security from being a possible source of cutting the budget and helping to meet the deficit. Of course Older Women's League and Gray Panthers are both among those groups that spearhead some of the concerns, call attention and research what the situation is. I suppose the fact that single heads of households, unwed mothers having moved into first place as the largest, most impoverished group in this country, has now nosed out of that place on the totem pole. Older women, women beyond the age of 65, as the largest category of impoverished in this country may have meant that some public policy thrusts are now more on that category. I don't like to see this as a competition in any case; either both categories of people, in fact, along the whole continuum of the life span there are needs. I suppose the most oppressed category age-wise in this country are children, young children and I'm very eager to have an opportunity to hear more from Donna Shalala now that she's on campus, on that subject of meeting the needs of children.  It's very hard to understand how public officials, such as the governor of Wisconsin, can think only of the mothers who are on welfare instead of the overwhelming number of children who rely on that pittance for any kind of livelihood, and always behave as though there weren't any children involved among the poor. What that bodes for our society of the future is just too frightening even to contemplate.

Back to the graying of the women's movement. Not enough is being done. In a way it's almost like displaced homemakers, rape crisis, family abuse, the grassroots women are taking it upon themselves to move while they pressure for public support and some changes in public policy. They are also, they or we, are also in the business of attending to these matters.  More and more women are working out living accommodations.

MA:   Jointly you mean?

KC:	   Yes, in some ways that are affordable and that keep people out of institutions at least as long as they are able to find some way of being cared for and having companionship and living a resourceful and useful kind of existence.  I don't know, the attention to pensions, and as I've said before, healthcare and health insurance and again, with leadership from women in the women's health movement, preparing oneself physically by things that I don't do of course, but exercise, proper diet, not smoking and warding off osteoporosis and other things.

00:32:15

MA:	   The education again.  You know, education is a stream throughout your life, the importance of education, your role as an educator, it seems to me that, as I look at the political work you've done, that's always there as a goal.

KC:	   I think that is part of the political job, and I'm not alone in thinking that.  I've been delighted in the process of these interviews for the Annenberg course on American National Government, the number of practitioners as well as scholars the members of Congress, political leaders, journalists who define part of the job of the President of the United States as an educational job that any political leader at whatever level must have a vision of where he or she wants the country or state or whatever to be moving and be able to articulate that vision and then be able to educate enough people so that they understand what that's about and have some input into the whole direction.

MA:	   Do you think that NOW has an educational role, or perhaps a better question would be, what do you see the National Organization of Women's role to be at this time?

KC:	   I find it very hard to focus in just on the National Organization for Women rather than a much broader spectrum of the women's movement, but there certainly is an educational role that is there for every segment including NOW. The Commissions, back at the time of the Kennedy Commission and then the subsequent state and local Commissions on the Status of Women were all laying the ground work and taking an important part in making possible the kind of contemporary women's movement that we have in this country and elsewhere through their research, fact finding and then disseminating of information through not only written materials but conferences, seminars, providing testimony at public hearings. All of these things were an educational part of what was going on. There is to be a meeting in Des Moines, Iowa a week from now that was called by a coalition of half a dozen organizations on the agenda, the women's agenda for the immediate future.  That's going to be an educational enterprise. The whole book, The Spirit of Houston and the forward looking strategies, these are all educational tools.  They also stimulate and goad to action and advocate.

00:35:38

MA:	   So it is impossible then to look at NOW in an isolated fashion, you're saying, because it works so closely with so many other groups?

KC:	   It doesn't always, depending on the leadership of that organization, doesn't always work as closely as I think it ought to. There were many, for a period of time during this last decade, who didn't even believe in coalition work.

MA:   Does the new president, the older woman?

KC:	   Molly Yard, I suppose within limits, but I think she kind of wants to go it alone in some respects, for example, it is only one of two or three organizations who believe we should immediately jump back in with the effort to ratify the ERA, and others who say this is not the time, and there are so many things on the front burner that we'd better be pushing.

MA:  How do you feel about?

KC:	   I think that until the time...I think that to invest so much woman power and money and energy and all the other things that have to be invested, that unless there was a reasonably good chance of rather instant passage and ratification, that we should wait until the mood of the country and the temperament of exchequer and of the concerns of people are more compatible. This doesn't mean that we sit still till then but rather push on all of these many fronts with a constant reminding, ourselves and others, that if we had an Equal Rights Amendment, then certain laws would be unconstitutional and certain other changes might be more readily made. Even getting the ERA into the constitution doesn't automatically mean that everything is going to be equal under the law. It just means that it opens up with a standard now by which laws can be measured, that more things will be declared passé.

MA:	   But of course that will also depend upon the philosophy, the political philosophy, of the Supreme Court Justices also then.

KC:	   Indeed it will. Those in turn depend upon who gets elected to the presidency and other appointing officials.
00:38:23

End of Tape 11, Side 1

Twelfth Interview Session (January 20, 1988), Tapes 11-12

00:38:39

MA:	   Well, Kaye, this is our last session. Some questions I'd like to ask you that are a little less specific than some of the ones we have been talking about.  Looking back over say the last ten years, what do you see as the most important gains that women have achieved?

KC:   I don't know whether I'm limiting myself to ten years or twenty years or whatever.

MA:   You can decide.

KC:	   I think, in general, a greater respect for woman and a greater acceptance, what I often call credibility of women, an almost universal recognition that women have, in general, have more potential and more ability and there is more diversity than what was acknowledged ten or twenty years ago. I think this is reflected in women's self esteem, lots of barometers that one can haul out such as women's political participation or their enrollment in, we hardly even say non-traditional anymore when we talk about women in law school or medical school, engineering, agriculture, and an acceptance by some of the very slow learners on our faculty who didn't want anyone over the age of 20 or 22 in the classroom and certainly didn't want women meddling in areas that would destroy the prestige of a field. There still of course are sufficient bastions where this has not yet taken hold.  Then we see, really at the grassroots, in the small towns and farms as well as big cities, where all kinds of women at all levels of the economy and education levels, etc., are taking themselves more seriously and are moving in a lot of new directions. There isn't a community now that, not only hasn't got the word, a lot of the negative violence against women but are responding to that and are doing something about it. Communities that are insisting that there be greater gender equity in public schools and at all levels and teachers and parents are becoming increasingly conscious of what they are doing to boys as well as girls with the old stereotype roles.  A lot of this is happening everywhere in this country. That, I think is, in a very broad brush way, what I think has happened.

Now what I am seeing in the women's movement itself, which is a plus, and is slower to come, is a move toward a more international outlook and learning more about what women are doing and what the women's movement, some male feminists as well, around the globe as I may already have quoted Robin Morgen on a previous tape saying "our ignorance in the west is frightening and incredible," our ignorance with the rest of the world. That is beginning to become overcome and that I think is a plus. We still have so far to go in moving women into real decision making, in the private sector as well as the public sector, but I think primarily in the public sector. There are increasing efforts to move women into a voice that is heard in foreign policy though for generations women have been the primary movers in peace movements, but that voice is in contradiction to the male, predominately male, I have to acknowledge, if you'll pardon the expression, Jean Kirkpatrick and other people masquerading as women, but who certainly don't make us proud. When I think of the organization that Bella Abzug and Mim Kelber have started, a foreign policy council of women, and have put out a directory now which they have made available just within the last six months, to all kinds of media outlets, letting them know that they no longer need to use the excuse "But we don't know any women who are qualified" to be on Meet the Press or to advise on this area of expertise and they have accumulated at least the beginnings of a national directory. I have yet to see the fruits of that labor but at least that kind of thing is happening.  AAUW, the League of Women Voters and some of these old line organizations had co-sponsored for the last four or five years a big event in Washington annually to train women to be more confident in the knowledge that they already have so that women are able to speak out and say "Yes, I am an expert on this and I can speak to the Central American situation or the US - Soviet affairs with the same authority that the men who are being called on can speak.  We've a long way to go but at least there is recognition of the need for it and there is some organization in motion.  It is going to be a long time I suppose before we see any like equity of women with men in cabinet level positions or in the national legislature or other places where some of this can express itself.

00:45:34

MA:	   Do you buy the notion that when women achieve equity in these areas, I'm thinking particularly in foreign policy, do you think that foreign policy will change as a result?

KC:	   Yes. Yes I do. I have no question about that. I know that many people do not and they immediately point to some of the women who have led nations, Indira Gandi, Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, and find that these are not necessarily more humane or more gentle.  I believe, as many other people do, that at this stage of the world's development with respect to gender equity, the only women who are going to get anywhere, and this is true in the private economy as well as in public life, are those who imitate the growing accepted morass and it's going to take time until there is, what is the expression –massive numbers before we will see the kinds of differences in policies. I think that one has to look for example at a place like Sweden where the leadership has been feminist, not necessarily female and see what enormous differences there are in public policy or, we can even look at the handful of women who are in our own Congress. Certainly far from anything equitable, 5%, 25 women in the House of Representative out of 435 and still that little handful in their women's caucus has had impact on public policy through the Congress.  When we look at County Boards and City Councils where the numbers and percentages of women, and School Boards, these more local level places, we can see the impact of the presence.  Now I don't believe that all women, I make a very firm distinction between "feminist" and "female" because we have all kinds of women in our own legislature. Some of the leadership of women in our Wisconsin Legislature, anti-feminist... Unless people make that distinction they can again say that having women in decision making isn't going to matter. Critical mass: that is the word I was looking for, until we are a "critical mass."

00:48:40

MA:	   Looking at the other side of my question, are there areas in the last maybe five to ten years would be fairly accurate time span, where you see declines for women, particularly with the current administration?

KC:	   Sure. The failure of the federal administration to provide...you can hardly think of a subject area in which the Regan administration hasn't cut back and this has to do with health care and it has to do with housing.  The shameful situation of homeless people in this country is a direct result of the failure of the federal government to continue building housing and they unseat people with a gentrification, whatever that word means, I'm not sure, and then provide no alternative.  The horrible things that Mayor Koch is doing in New York which is rounding up all those people from the streets and putting them in mental institutions or wherever as if that was any kind of a solution to this problem. Violence against women has, I don't know if it has actually increased or if the consciousness and reporting and court action, etc., has made it more visible but certainly violence has not subsided or lessened at all.  You can't separate that, any of these things, the increasing poverty of women, women heads of households, the epidemic of teenage unwed pregnancies; I think are all part and parcel of the militarization of this whole society which still, as a matter of policy at least, relies on violence as a way of settling differences.  With the enormous military budget, institutions of higher learning and private production in this country is so focused on military expenditures and one is considered disloyal even to question whether universities should be engaging in military research or whether the CIA should be around. The secrecy in government has certainly increased in the last decade and more, which is the antipathy to a democratic society.  Civil rights are in enormous question, the right to privacy, gay bashing which is perfectly acceptable in many circles.  It is less acceptable these days to be anti-Semitic and to be as overtly racist, people are supposed to be a little more subtle now, that is considered to be polite, but they can continue to be as racist as ever.  One can't separate sex based discrimination whether it's race, religion, life style, previous condition of servitude, the whole alien registration kinds of things. We're really in a very bad way. I think any feminist who keeps her eyes solely on stereotypes of male-female without looking at all of the rest of the environment which encourages put downs. If you put down any category then you are kind of willing to put down the next category. We had the great joy of interviewing Barbara Jordan on one of the tapes for the American Government course for the lesson on civil liberties and we asked her especially about the separation of church and state and some of the impact of some of the religious right wing zealots on politics. She made the point that intolerance, a person who is intolerant of other peoples' religious views finds it very easy to be intolerant of any other kinds of views, political, social or whatever and I agree with that. I think the most fundamental right from which spring a whole lot of other first amendment rights at least, is freedom of conscience. There is no way to control somebody else’s conscience but unless we are allowed to think the way we happen to think and then express that in speech, or the way we relate to other people or assembly or the right to petition or criticize or complain and that's to me what a democratic society is all about and we are a long, far cry from one.

00:54:27

MA:	   Do you think that women who have become feminists, do you think the process of becoming a feminist then opens women's eyes to these other issues?  Do you think it's a first, could perhaps be a first step?

KC:	   I'm sure it could be a first step and I think at the same time many people come to feminism from having a concern with some of these other things and then seeing the interrelationship.

MA:   So then one way or another you do see the interrelationship.

KC:	   I do, but I think also that it has to sometimes be pointed out very concretely to help people get the...I know that over the years my eyes have been opened when somebody has pointed out to me concretely and I could I suppose trace at least 50 of my last 67 years with moments of epiphany or click, or whatever, when somebody has called my attention, I may have mentioned that I had never thought of reproductive control as a  political issue until Pauli Murray at our first NOW national board meeting made the point that unless a woman controlled if and when she was to become a mother than all of these other freedoms were of certainly less consequence. I just had never...I had privately thought that it was nobody's business but the individual's whether they became pregnant and had an abortion or gave birth or whatever. I hadn't thought of it as having a political implication until she pointed it out.

MA:   You mentioned that also in respect to gay/lesbian rights, that it was a process also.

KC:	   Equal rights means equal rights...and probably a great many more. Violence I may have mentioned that the first time anyone called my attention to rape as a political question, Xandra Kayden, I see that she is in one of the footnotes in the text we are using for American Government, she is a political scientist but I knew her when we were planning the International Feminist Planning Conference on the Lesley College campus back in 1973.  She was one of the people who was very instrumental in planning that. She telephoned me when she was doing some position papers for George McGovern during his presidential candidacy and was asking my advice on something and in the course of the conversation said "I think the next big push for the women's movement is going to be on the topic of rape." Never crossed my mind until then but I had to mull that for awhile.

MA:   As an example, how is rape a political issue, how does she describe rape as a political issue?  

KC:	   I don't know what her description is but it was going to be a big push to...well to do what we actually have done, to get the laws changed so that a woman is not on trial and that there is some credibility and that the educational and sensitizing experience for police and the judiciary and hospital people and even the establishment of a victim/witness helpers, ombudspeople in the court situation, all of these things have grown out of the recognition that we were not handling rape situations in humane and useful affirmative ways.

MA:   Do you see the expansion of rape to include date rape and marital rape as a result of that also?

KC:	   Sure, that has evolved as the... that happens in every kind of issue really, the more we get into it the more we see what needs to be done. Sometimes when I look at the National Plan of Action that was agreed upon at Houston ten years ago and realized that not a single one of those 25 umbrella issue areas can be laid to rest, but the level at which we are doing things under those major headings has become much more sophisticated, much deeper and also are on the national agenda, not just the feminists, not just women's groups but state legislature and county boards, city councils and the congress itself are now paying attention, they don't always handle it well, but nevertheless these are issues that are recognized as important social issues. Which is another part of the response I suppose to your question of what pluses and what minuses.

01:00:02

MA:	   Yes, definitely. When you look at young women today, what do you think is the major feminist issue? They may not know or be able to articulate what feminist issue is for them or they may not think there is one, but do you see major issues that are going to emerge for them?  It's hard to imagine in college, they seem to feel they have it all –it's already been done, the world is open for them....

KC:	   Of course the whole juggling of home and family, we have not progressed very far with respect to childcare and sharing within the home. I think women are going to remain in the workforce, in the paid labor force in numbers equivalent to men in the workforce. I don't know how far we're going to get in changing the expectations of women and men in, for example, defining success or setting goals.  I've thought about this for many, many years that when people say or when I think that even supermoms who juggle the works can very rarely expect to attain the levels of acclaim or even of satisfaction in a job career situation that they could have attained if they had not had children or had household responsibilities. Then I wonder to myself why do we have these levels of achievement as the goals, why do we as a society say this person is a star or is particularly special?  I'm sure that is part of the reason some of the men are reluctant to deflect themselves from their career aspirations, much as they would like to have more time parenting or doing leisure things with their family or avoiding the stress of heart attacks and all the rest by not having their nose so close to the grindstone. It's kind of the heat is on from many sources to do that so I don't know if it's the achieving society or what it is. It isn't always a matter of stockpiling more money but it is to be somebody in your field.

MA:   And it isn't nearly as important to raise healthy children?

KC:	   Well it becomes important too, as long as somebody else is doing it. I can see this in the eyes of men who want to send their children to the best schools and the best summer camps, and make sure that they are healthy and well rounded and have many skills and as long as papa is paying the bills...And that's different from...And sometimes even close friends and relatives wonder about a man who, and there are a lot of men who are family people and are close to their own children and don't see household chores as "woman's work."

MA:   And your husband was one of them.

KC:	   That's right. And yet, such people, I don't know if anyone ever mumbled this about Hank but I'm sure such people often are thought of as well maybe not the achievers and maybe didn't have it on the ball or they would have...
	
MA:	   It does appear that in our society to be a big achiever not only do you need to devote all of your time to it, you also need the support of a person behind you.

KC:	   That's right. How that gets changed...I know people I knew who well we shouldn't change it, we won't advance, we won't have the newer inventions and discoveries. It takes medical researchers who are that devoted to what they are doing.

MA:   That's an interesting debate.  

01:05:28

Taking this to your personal life, when you look back, clearly you made sacrifices for home and family in terms of time. Would you have done that any differently knowing what you know now? You certainly could have achieved more.

KC:	   Yes, I certainly could. I guess I'm a little ambivalent about that. Many times over the years I've thought I wouldn't want to have traded my parenting role for national presidency of something or other and I still maintain that, at least for me. I think being a parent is good for adults. Now maybe there are substitutes that people can put in their life that will also make them more sensitive as human beings and more able to generalize about educational needs and healthcare needs and a lot of other things. Some of the most self-centered people I know are either unmarried or childless or both and I feel badly sometimes that they haven't had the experience which of necessity forces...I don't think that some people are just born to be parents, but there are things that you learn to do. Maybe I have just rationalized the pleasure I have...Oh, having done this and having invested a great deal of myself into this role I must tell myself yes, I enjoyed it! Who is to say to what extent I am rationalizing?

01:07:39

MA:   What have you learned from your children?

KC:	   I don't know how to sum it up in a sentence or two. Once again I tend to think in specifics rather than overall.  I remember an occasion at our supper table when David was six or seven I suppose because we had moved to Madison by then, when we were setting certain ground rules I don't have any idea what the conversation was, it might have had to do with bed time or eating vegetables or something but his question was "By what right can parents tell children what they may or may not do?" It was a real philosophic question and started all kinds of wheels going because it is a very good question, by what right or what authority, I mean parents do not own children, this is another unique human being and while we have certain responsibilities for health and safety, how far does that go and what are the lines.  Multiply that by 365 days of the year for how many years and three children and I think I was learning things all the time, things that I had to think about that I might never have thought about.

MA:   Because they are each unique individuals bringing a different perspective to the world.

KC:	   I think you learn to receive as well as to give by having children. My mother used to try to teach me how to be a gracious receiver, and she herself certainly was one, but things are different when kids want to do something for you and you know that their resources are limited and yet to put yourself in those shoes and how much pleasure you get out of being the giver then you should allow other people that pleasure. I suppose also from children you learn a little bit about their whole generation and other things that are affecting them, and find out what the schools are teaching and how they are teaching it.

MA:	   Did your children grow up with basically the same political beliefs as you? Certainly at some point in time children do have the same beliefs as their parents but then sometimes they move in entirely different political directions.

KC:	   I would say that our children, all three of them, have essentially the same outlook. Janet is not very politically active or much of a political participant, she votes and she contributes to political campaigns, but I don't know what kind of an analysis she would do of a public policy, although I've been known to underestimate her also on some of those scores. I think David's politics are closest to mine and Hank's and Hank and I had very similar basic outlooks on things. Whenever we would fill out a questionnaire from our Congress member or whatever, we did them separately and had one line for "W" and one for "H" once in a while there would be one particular issue on which we would have a yes and a no but for the most part -- in fact that was one of our initial attractions to each other I think 41 years ago. Sarah is not quite as much of a civil libertarian as David and I are.  I remember David and Sarah having a debate on the helmets for motorcyclists which David thought was an invasion of privacy, if people wanted to knock their heads off a motorcycle and Sarah's view was it's a social cost when they do that, the police and medical and all the rest and therefore some of these safety regulations, even though they do invade privacy, seat belts, etc. that they unbalance, she goes in the other direction.  Still, they are both thoughtful and don't accept... they have a heathy skepticism and certainly interested in what's going on and take part in what's going on.

MA:   Did your feminism have an influence on their lives, do you think?

KC:	   I'm sure that the way we lived in our own household certainly had a...that's just what they expected and the way they lived.  Neither of my gals is a gung ho, rebel rousing, street corner feminist and yet both of them seem to be very proud of some of the things that I have done and I don't think they disagree with my stand on feminist issues and probably agree with them.  I suppose in that sense they do have....

MA:	   Do you see in their generation more of a taking for granted of the rights that they have that your generation had to fight for?

KC:	   Sarah had to go through a lot of these struggles herself.  She started when she was in law school at Boalt Hall at Berkeley. The women students were feeling very put down by...she helped to organize the first women's group there and she has helped to organize a women attorney's group in her county and frequently is asked to address status of women conferences and other things.  I think she is very mindful that the struggle still goes on.  She is mindful of it in the law firm that employed her, she never brought a discrimination suit, but she was aware that the legal secretary, who was female, was being paid about as much as Sarah who was an attorney and that the difference between what she was being paid and what the male attorneys were being paid, in spite of the fact that she was a good lawyer and brought business in, etc., so she knows that those issues are not won.  While she doesn't handle a lot of discrimination cases, she is also very conscious of racism and she is, as I've told you, bilingual.  A lot of her clients are poor people and a lot are Spanish speaking, so she is aware of all kinds of ongoing things. Janet graduated from the Ag School here and worked in a rural area in upstate New York and is, not only comfortable in rural and small settings, but again is mindful of a lot of distinctions.  I guess I don't care whether they pay dues to NOW or something else as long as they are aware of social justice and of being a plus in their own community and being kind to friends and neighbors. All three of my kids are extremely generous with friends and other things.  From the standpoint of character, which I don't know if I separate from political outlook, I guess I really don't, they all please me.

MA:   I think you've just given a very good example of the many forms that social concern can take.
				
01:17:18

If you were going to start the life of a social activist over again, and of course you didn't know that you were beginning the life of a social activist at the time I'm sure, but knowing all of the things that you know now, are there things that you would have done differently, major things in terms of personal direction, political allegiances?

KC:	   I suppose there were a lot of things and yet I have never planned ahead, I've said that before, so that to plan a whole lifetime now in the next five minutes is going to be a strain. I'm wondering about myself though as I look back, that I never really entertained the option of not marrying. It was just...I never really thought about it in one way or the other, but in looking back I realize that I always made the assumption of whom would I marry and when, but not would I marry. I suppose the same thing is true of having children although I must say that in my pre-married days I would fantasize about life ahead, I never could picture myself with girl children, I suppose because I grew up with three brothers and was a real tomboy and did things with them all the time. I just couldn't imagine myself until I actually had a daughter, ever being the mother of a girl. Of course now I feel sorry for people who don't have at least children, if they have more than one, one of each gender.  Because I've learned different things from my girl children than I've learned... maybe I've just learned something different from each of three individuals perhaps irrespective of gender but I think not. I think there are special growing up things that girls experience that boys don't and vice versa. So those were other questions. It took me until well into my forties before I asked myself, why didn't you ever think about going to law school? I still don't know why I never thought of it and I have been sorry that I haven't had legal training, even to do just what I have done.

MA:   The work that you do keeps taking you into that area doesn't it?

KC:	   That's right, so some of us had to be self-trained, not that I by any means understand the law.  It took feminists who were not even trained in the law to do some digging into the sex-based discrimination that was embodied in the law in some of the early days, by early days I mean before women and the law was sneaked into some of the first law school curriculum. On the other hand, that in itself has been part of the excitement of my life and of my participation in the feminist movement.  There were so many areas of life that I knew nothing about and that I had to learn about.  Days when you don't learn something can be a drag. This brings me of course to one of the pluses of my employment here at the university, that my work has been pretty well self-defined and has changed over the years.  I get into an awful rut I've discovered about myself if I'm doing the same thing more than once or twice and consequently I have always been eager for a new experience or a slightly different experience and then I find a way to say, to legitimatize abandoning something I'm already doing and moving into something else.  So I have had the opportunity, even though I've been in one career slot for a long, long time, to have a lot of new experiences and a lot of learning experiences.  Then of course, I don't know how I would have ever had the opportunity to meet the unbelievable numbers of absolutely wonderful women that I have had the opportunity not only to meet but to really get to know, that the Status of Women experience and all of the subsequent involvements.

MA:   You wouldn't change any of that it sounds like.

KC:	   I don't know. People used to needle me about applying for jobs in Washington whenever there was a vacancy that looked like the kind of thing, the executive director of something in the women's organization or in the Federal government itself, I'd get phone calls and you know, apply, come, do this. I didn't for a couple of reasons, one had to do with family and not wanting to move people around, and secondly, I am kind of a small town person and the occasions when I lived, we lived for eight years in the New York area and I've lived in St. Louis for four years and thought about Los Angeles for the summer we were there, and I'm just not a big city dweller from choice. This community is just simply big enough to suit me. Those were two reason that I didn't want to be in Washington for any, although I loved the two experiences that I had there with the War Production Board back in the 40's and with International Women's Year in the 70's.

01:24:45

End of Tape 11

00:00:15

MA:	   Kay, you were talking about never having applied for a job that you simply wait until they are offered to you.  Do you want to continue on that vein?

KC:	   Well, I don't know what that says about me, in fact, I have turned down things even that people have offered to me when I would liked to have done it and I don't think it is fear of failure, I don't know what it is. I had friends in college who used to comment that my whole family, my brothers and I, weren't ambitious in the sense of wanting to amount to something, not that any of us were lazy.

MA:	   Yet you have a Ph.D. in Political Science which most of us would consider quite an achievement in itself.  That's a level of ambition there that we can't deny.

KC:	   Of course, actually I suppose when I made the decision I was working in Washington for the War Production Board and had a master's degree and realized during that several year period that I had never been a real student and had never .... things came very easily to me, less so at the university than in high school of course, I could get by with B+'s and finally by my junior year I had learned how to write a final exam so that I could get A's, but I never immersed myself in the library or felt it essential that I had actually read all of these books instead of just an excerpt in a textbook or whatever. That kind of hunger really only came to me after I was away from school for a couple years. I'd been in school continuously from the age of 2 till the age of 21 when I had my masters degree so my return to graduate school was less with the idea, I want to get a Ph.D. because then I can have more job opportunities, or because it would look good behind my name, but I wanted to really feel that I had learned something and then I did it rather in a hurry, at least by a lot of standards because returning to Wisconsin instead of going to any of the other schools that offered me fellowships, I knew that I would have fewer trials and errors, I knew what people to avoid. I really hand-picked the instructors and the courses I wanted during the course work I had to take and then wrote my thesis on a subject of my choice, and  I know a lot of graduate students have to get so many clearances even on their subjects, much less how they go about doing it. Then, as I've told you before, my advice from Bill Ebenstein and some of my favorite professors was do it and get it over with. You're not going to set the world on fire with your thesis and you can hang around for eight years doing it or you can get it done now. You will really start the real learning process when you begin teaching.  That only made sense to me after I really began teaching in my first job at Purdue where I realized that while I thought I knew this stuff from A to Z you have to know it at a totally different level in order to purvey it to others and to know which of it they are getting and what they are not getting and why they are not getting it. So, I had that kind of advice but I wasn't dying for a Ph.D. for any other reason than that series of reasons.  I've never flaunted it, I don't, in fact it embarrasses me when I see calling cards from some of my friends with Ph.D. after their name, I think “Why did they do that, why did they have to do that?”  My children think it's kind of nice when they introduce me to somebody I've never met before, they will say "This is my mother, Dr. Clarenbach." I will occasionally use my...I have it now on airline tickets; I use Doctor and find that I get a lot less shabby treatment by smart asses at the ticket window and other places.  It always annoys me that I get nicer treatment.  I've had the same treatment when I go into a store. If I go in my Saturday grubbies I can stand in line to be waited on by a lot of clerks or if I go in gussied up and looking like a lady who has money they just can't wait to be nice enough to you.  There is so much of that classism throughout this society.  That is of course what happens when you put doctor on your airline ticket.

MA:   How interesting.

KC:	   Anyway, I don't know what got all of this started.

00:06:24

MA:	   We were talking about if you were going to do it over what you would have done differently. You began I think with a comment that I think is very generationally, that a lot of women can relate to not even knowing whether you would have married and had children since that of course wasn't something one thought about not doing at that time.  Of course if you hadn't then it would have been...

KC:	   And had I the road not taken, had I taken the Bryn Mawr job instead of the Purdue job a whole lot of things would have been different and who is to know.

MA:   And there are always those turns in the road and we make decisions accordingly.

KC:	   I made decisions not to go, I've mentioned this before, to the three International meetings during the International Women's Year.

MA:   You made the decision not to go to the International meetings?

KC:	   Yes, Mexico, Copenhagen and Nyrobi and probably if I had that to do over again.... And again, I think it was something of the same thing that makes me hesitate to aspire, had something to do with my not going to those meetings.  Another reason of course that I didn't go to those international meetings was the expense.  Maybe that's something else I would do differently, spend a little bit more money.  

MA:   You certainly encourage your children to do that.

KC:    Of course my mother encouraged me to do that too and I didn't do much of it.

00:08:21

MA:	   As I look back on all of our interviews and what you've talked about with your birth family and then your marriage family, it seems to me that all parts of life have always been held with near equal importance to your parents and to you as you were raising the children so that not only career but health and sports and political activities and family and friends have all been important and maybe what you're saying is that maybe you've just been taking care of yourself in all of those areas. Were you to charge ahead in any one particular area it would have meant giving up some of the others.

KC:	   Of course I do, or used to a lot in a lot of talks I gave, talk about the importance of balance in one's life, balance in all of those areas and I do believe that. I know one thing I would have done differently if I had an opportunity to redo it and that is to have more of a social life, more interactions with friends, good friends. I think I was a much more sociable person than my husband and enjoyed events more than he did and of course his illness put the kibosh on a lot of things. When we moved to Madison in 1960 I was 39. I was the same age then that my Sarah is today. I had great dreams of glory, of being able to play golf and go swimming and seeing a lot of old friends and then Hank's economic situation, employment situation, is really what moved me back into the workforce. That and the fact that Edgewood called me and then the University Extension called me. I might not have said yes except that we needed a few bucks. Anyway, I never did get to play golf.

MA:   You might have expanded your social life at that time much more?

KC:	   That's right, so that by the time I was home from work and then with three kids, who were school age and one who was preschool and we couldn't even afford to pay a cleaning lady for that first couple of years, so my weekends were just filled with routine household kinds of things. We bought, as I've said before, season tickets to the plays and things and then found that we just weren't getting to them so we stopped doing that. By the time that financially things were looking up, then Hank's illness set in and he just didn't want anyone to see him eat or tremor so our social life minimized from what was not great to virtually nil.

MA:   How many years?

KC:	   He had 17 years of Parkinson's disease and for the last 10 or 12 he was totally unable to work so I was the sole bread winner which is another reason I didn't go to a lot of meetings was that I didn't want to leave him by himself for any length of time.

MA:   That makes a big difference.

KC:	   Now that I think I've got a little money stashed away, again it's not enough to worry the Dow Jones at all, I figure I could have spent the $3,000 to go to Copenhagen and, you know, who would care.

00:12:51

MA:	   And now the question that you're asking yourself is should I retire?  It will be interesting to see how you answer that.

KC:	   That's right, and more days than not I say "Yes, I think I should" but I still figure I shouldn't rush into a decision because once that's made it's made. It cannot be revoked. I'm feeling better now than I was feeling certainly last July and August when I was sick as a horse. I guess that was one of the things my father used to impress upon us was don't ever make an important decision when you're tired or sick.

MA:   Very good advice.

KC:    And I seem to be a little of both, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired so I'm postponing the decision.

00:13:56

MA:	   My last question has to do with various activities that you've been involved with.  Can you identify any one that makes you the proudest when you look back on your various achievements and activities?

KC:	   No I really can't. There are times when I think the Wisconsin Governor's Commission on the Status of Women which did so much ground breaking that had national ramifications and the way in which that whole Commission functioned was one of the things. Then I think no, starting NOW, much as we may have had a tiger by the tail, but at that moment in history was an important step.

MA:	   Of course historians look at that and they say "Yes indeed, Kay Clarenbach's greatest work was that she was instrumental in the formation of NOW." In part, that's why I'm asking you the questions.

KC:	   I think the Status of Women Commissions, without them we would never have had NOW, and I don't mean just because of the event where we got together, but all the groundwork that had been laid over those several years made it possible for NOW to...and then for it to catch on as quickly as it did. I think some of the things I did here in Wisconsin with respect to continuing education for women was very important, not only on the Madison campus, but then through the channel of our Status of Women Commission we were able to encourage every campus, we didn't have a unified system at that time, but we had meetings on the campuses of all the state colleges and the private institutions in the state and got the word out to them about adult learners and particularly women and the wasted brain power and all of the things that go with that.  

00:16:23

I don't know at what stage of my life I learned that life is not a popularity contest. I only articulated that to myself and anyone who wanted to hear it, you know, 20 years ago. I imagine I grew up knowing that because I don't remember ever having my parents ask each other or themselves or any of us "But what will people say?  But what will people think?", or "Will your friends like you if you do this?" Those were never questions that were even implied much less asked, but rather "Can you live with yourself if you do this?" "Or do you think that's a wise thing to do?" My mother did scare me when I was a little kid by persuading me that Jesus was watching me at all times and whether she could see me or not, Jesus was probably on my case. That used to stay my hand when I was a little youngster and kept me in line.

MA:   But then, once you discovered that that wasn't the case, then you were free?

KC:	   I don't know if I was free. I think by that time I had internalized what I'm supposed to not do so I didn't even need Jesus to watch me.

MA:   You had your own control mechanisms?

KC:	   I think to do that which was popularly accepted was not a...and of course both of my parents did things all the time that were not popularly accepted, they did them because they were socially useful or just or whatever.

00:18:20

MA:	   What kind of work have you enjoyed the most?  You've done one-to-one with the people in the Continuing Education program, you've taught....

KC:	   I think I have liked writing speeches and then delivering them. I have loved doing that. I have 16 tons of manuscripts!  I think I would probably like to write something more than that. A lot of people keep needling me, why don't I write some of my experiences, whatever, and the same thing that keeps me from doing a lot of other things keeps me from doing that. Because I say to myself "Well now, who would be interested in this?   Who, beside maybe my own kids, would like to have a little clearer record of some of these things?" Because I do, I love to write. I haven't done a lot of speaking lately but I used to do as many 30 major addresses in a year and never ran out of steam and never delivered the same one twice. Audiences sometimes thought it was the same one, but I never used a speech a second time. Lots of times I would snip and paste. Not only was each audience a little bit different, sometimes a lot different, but also my view of what I said last...I  never could use notes in a class a second time. I would keep notes from an outline of a lecture or whatever thinking "Aha, I'll haul this out again next semester." I'd haul it out next semester and I wouldn't have the slightest idea of what I had in mind and I thought I don't really look at it that way now, I look at it.... And again, to an audience, these nuances may have been unrecognized but to me it made a difference.

00:20:33

MA:	   Which probably has something to do with how much you love the process of writing and delivering, whether it be a speech or a lecture, that it was constantly new and exciting for you.

KC:	   I did almost all of my speech writing at home, on my own time. In the five months that you were able. I would sit at my picnic table where I could enjoy the fresh air and the sunshine and watching the birds while I wrote, and then I wasn't interrupted by seeing a pile of dirty clothes or something that might need doing.

MA:   How do you write? What is your process? Do you put it straight on a computer for example?

KC:	   No, I don't type at all, ever since I lied to the Ethical Society and told them I couldn't type, I have subsequently made myself an honest woman and now I can't type.

MA:   So we're talking all longhand here?

KC:	   Yes, with a number 1 dark pencil on a yellow pad. I can outline a 15 or 20 page speech in about two inches at the top of it, and I can't start writing until I know what I want to do, what main ideas I want to convey and then I always want to have some colorful, illustrative, antidotal material, otherwise it gets too boring to the listeners.  I love words and I love turning a phrase and until my eyes betrayed me, crossword puzzles were one of my favorite relaxations before bedtime. I loved to do crossword puzzles and did a lot of them up at the cottage on rainy days. I guess I do like words and I like the turn of a phrase and of course my husband loved to read anything that I had ever written. I told you he was my... I don't know why I ever relied on this because he thought anything I wrote was just absolutely wonderful and he would persuade me that it was and then each time he would say "I think this is the best thing you've ever written!" He also corrected my spelling. He was quite a grammarian and a speller. I don't know why Jefferson City schools were any better than Sparta schools, but...

MA:	   You know that's a very important thing that you just mentioned, that you have such confidence, you may not aspire to high political positions, but you have a great deal of confidence in what you do. You family was supportive and then your husband, there was always somebody there saying "You're doing very well, keep going" as opposed to "You really shouldn't be doing this, you should get home and take care of the kids."

KC:	   There were some years when my neighbors finally called it to my attention, I think I've told you this, that I'd get out of the car, after a day’s work here, lugging a briefcase, which I knew I was going to open after the kids were in bed, and they would tell me they could hear me from the car up to the front door –a sigh of fatigue and I was fatigued.  After everyone was in bed then I would sit down to do my writing or whatever else I had brought home.

MA:   You have incredible discipline.

KC:   I used to have but I have less so now.

MA:  You're entitled!

KC:	   That's what I keep telling myself and that's why I worry about retiring, that I might get into my tip-back chair in the living room and never emerge.

MA:   Where's Kay Clarenbach?  Oh, watching soap operas.

KC:	   I haven't even connected my downstairs television so if it's something I really want to watch I have to walk all the way upstairs. Sometimes I put a music tape in and sometimes I don't even do that.

MA:   Is there anything else that you would like to say at this point in the interview?

KC:	   No, except that I have enjoyed this opportunity to reminisce and to relive a lot of this. You've remarked about what a memory I have for events and names, but it's the experience. I have mentioned this, it must be similar to psychoanalysis, the whole setting has just brought these things back to mind and it has been good to do.

MA:	   It has been very good for me also. I've enjoyed it very much.

KC:    Do you know what's going to happen to either the tapes or the transcript?

MA:    Not specifically but I will get that information.

KC:	   Gerta reminds me that I'm supposed to lay claim to them and to say it is my property and that if other people want to look at it they have to get my permission. I don't know what the process is or who is protecting what from whom.

MA:	   I will find out specifically. It's my understanding that you can put any limitations you choose on the information that we have here. It can remain in the archives and be opened up like personal papers in 20 years, it can be used now.

KC:    I think I've been very careful about not saying unkind things about people who might deserve it.

MA:   Yes, you're a very tactful woman.

KC:    I can think of a whole battery of people on this campus....

MA:   Whose names you haven't even mentioned.

KC:	   That's right, but will be on this campus too. People who are the problem instead of part of the solution.  Therefore, I can't think of who might...I don't even think the FBI would get any good information from this than they already have.

MA:   We'll have to save the really hot stuff for your book.

00:27:27

End of Interview Session 12

SECOND INTERVIEW

00:00:08

First Interview Session (March 10, 1989), Tape 13

00:00:18

MA:   You were nominated for an office in the National Organization for Women.  Why were you nominated?  What do you think you had to offer the movement, or what did they think you had to offer the movement?

KC:   This nomination of course was at the October 1966 Formal Organizing Conference. That's the way it was billed. As you know, I was not there because I couldn't afford another trip to Washington. I had been there in June when we had first really gotten the idea and proceeded with the forming of the organization. That was at the time of the smoke filled room and all of that.  At that time, in June, I was named temporary chair -- chairman actually, by my friend Catherine Conroy. Also, I was given the treasury, the big treasury of 27 times $5.00, and brought it back to Wisconsin. I had functioned from June until October as the temporary chair.  I had put together an advisory group so that whatever moves we made were either group decisions or cleared with this quite broad based group of some half dozen people. Then I had gone to Washington to work with Marguerite Raywalt, Mary Eastwood, Phineas Indritz, Betty Friedan –I can't remember whether Catherine East sat in on those sessions or not – but to put together a proposed constitution and bylaws. I had had those sorts of temporary leadership roles already before that October meeting.  Even though I wasn't there, there were people there who did know me. I have a photograph that I should have fished out just to let you to look at, taken of the people at that October planning meeting. Actually there were many people – it wasn't a huge group, I suppose around no more than 50, and there were many of them whom I do not know at all, so it wasn't that I was an outstanding, well known person at all. I think the core of the people who were at that October meeting who had also been at the June meeting and had an ongoing relationship did know me and I think they were probably instrumental in not only naming me to chair the Board but in devising the organizational structure so that Betty Friedan who was a natural to be the president and had no organizational experience and no known organizational skills –it worried people. While it was important to have her with her expertise and enthusiasm and fame in the leadership, they worried what would happen to the organization or if there would ever become one under those circumstances.  I was known to a handful of those people, the ones that I mentioned -- I think Pauli Murray also had a hand in designing the bylaws.  Those people who knew me not only from that few months experience with this fledgling organization, but knew what I had done with our Wisconsin Commission on the Status of Women, had heard me speak at each of the national meetings that we had held commissions, 1964, 65 and 66 I had made presentations and they knew something of the success of our Wisconsin Commission.

MA:   Basically they knew the kind of work that you did. They were aware of both your ideas from your speeches and your organizational expertise?

KC:   I suppose it also didn't hurt, although nobody ever said this directly, that I had a Ph.D. that was associated with a reputable institution.

MA:  So the fact that you had a Ph.D. and were associated with the university probably helped.

KC:   Sure. One of the people who was at that organizing conference was Alice Rossi. She and I did know each other, we had had her here as a primary speaker the year before at an excellent conference on women and science. Some issues never end do they, that's still on a front burner.  

00:06:22

I did have two, at least two, maybe three, phone calls (I was here in Madison during that October conference) from Pauli Murray telling me how they wanted to structure the organization in order to have a two-headed thing and then urging me to accept that. I wasn't too keen about doing it to begin with. I don't know why, maybe I do need psychoanalysis after all, but I am so often either am conflicted about invitations of that kind or just plain turn them down. I certainly turned them down with the National Women's Political Caucus but that's another story.

MA:   Why do you think you were hesitant? You didn't turn this down but yet you had feelings of uncertainty.

KC:    I don't know. There was a practical reality of time and money.

MA:   And you would not be paid for this and your trips would not be paid for?

KC:   That's right. I often say in jest that I have now timed all of my activities in the women's movement. I get into the act when it's all self-help.

MA:   Did you have any concerns about working with Betty? You've mentioned that in earlier interviews that she could be difficult to work with.

KC:   Those concerns grew more actually after I began to work with her than at the outset, although they were present.  It took quite a while before we began to trust each other and tolerate each other. I'm sure that her frustrations were equally as great as mine because I'm a slow learner and she's a fast doer.

MA:   It sounds like your styles were very, very different.

KC:    Yes they were. You weren't at that October event this year were you?

MA:   No.

KC:    She made a lot of references to our style differences. Somebody asked her –I can't remember when—oh it must have been one of the television interviewers or newspaper interviewers who accosted her before the event and said "What did she and I have in common besides our feminism?" Which was such a foolish question to begin with, because that is enough to have in common, I would think. The response she gave at the banquet was that we are both mothers and have children and then she remembered how in jest one time we were trying to get my daughter and her son together. They were both in California and each had just terminated a love affair so we thought that might be a great mating but it didn't come off.

00:09:47

You had suggested whether my participation in the Commission on the Status of Women was a factor.  What I wanted to clarify were some dates and some Commission involvement. I was never a member of the National Commission on the Status of Women. That Commission was appointed by John Kennedy in December of 1961 existed until October of 1963, at which time they issued their report which is called American Women. There was never any intention that that be an ongoing Commission. It was to be an investigative and reporting body which in fact it was and it was intended from the outset to go out of existence. I was not a member of that Commission nor was I ever invited in to participate in any of their doings. I did have some contact with Esther Rauschenbush who chaired a subcommittee on education. I think she was in touch with a number of people who were doing continuing education. I probably wrote a memo or two but I actually had nothing to do with that Commission.

00:11:25

Mary Eastwood and Catherine East both were staff people to subcommittees of that Commission. Both of them I think became feminists, they were probably latent feminists, but because of their experience working with and digging into many of the ways that women were discriminated against and disadvantaged and some of the changes that seemed obvious that could be made.

MA:   Did you know Mary Eastwood and Catherine East when they were working with the National Commission?

KC:    No I never had met either one of them. I may have met them before 1966 because they both came to national meetings of Commissions. The first national meeting of State Commissions was held in 1964.  I know that Catherine East was at all of those meetings. When the National Commission, Kennedy's Commission on the Status of Women, terminated its work, one of its recommendations was that a Citizen's Advisory Council on the Status of Women be formed to help implement the recommendations of that Commission. Catherine East was named Executive Director of that Citizen's Advisory Council and she continued in that capacity for the thirteen years of the Advisory Council's existence. I knew Catherine East in that capacity. She was really servicing the State Commissions on the Status of Women, sending information, making phone calls, getting us together with somebody else who had a common interest, really created a network and was probably as important to the development of the women's movement in this country as any person.

I don't remember knowing or meeting Mary Eastwood prior to the 1966 thing even though we may have encountered each other.

MA:   But you were involved with the State Commissions on the Status of Women of course before you became involved with NOW?

KC:   That's right.

MA:   I think that was probably what we were thinking about when we put that question together and you have already answered it basically.

KC:   I just wanted to clarify the dates.  

00:14:27

One of the reasons that Catherine Conroy volunteered me to be the temporary chair of NOW, which then snowballed into all of these other things, was that she and I worked closely on our Wisconsin Commission on the Status of Women.  She knew that I would be able to, in fact in the same breath in which she said I ought to be the temporary chair she said that she and the other Wisconsin folks who were there would help, which of course they did.

MA:   You noted that eight or ten of the original 27 or 28 people were from Wisconsin.

KC:   That's right. Also, by October of 1966 when that organizing meeting took place in Washington, by then we had 300 members around the country. Just sort of by word of mouth mostly or we would get in touch with a friend.  Of those 300, 120 were from Wisconsin.

MA:   To what do you attribute that?

KC:   I attribute it to the fact that we had a good Commission on the Status of Women which was doing a great deal of outreach. We had educational conferences around the state. We brought in outstanding people like Martha Griffith and Esther Peterson who was director of the Women's Bureau in Washington. We were just doing a first rate job as a Commission. Then of course, I mentioned in much earlier interviews, that there was publicity in Wisconsin about the formation of NOW. Analoyce Clapp had sat with us and taken the minutes of that little lunch table at which there were eight of us I think, where the famous paper napkin recorded the name, statement of purpose, etc. That got in to the Milwaukee Sentinel so people began to read about that and that's who our various connections...Catherine Conroy of course was in the Wisconsin labor movement and so she got in touch with labor women. We had a variety of contacts.

00:17:05

MA:   That was the next question I was going to ask. Of the 120 women, were these women professional women, labor union women? You've referred to kind of a broad coalition.

KC:    Yes, and academic. We had had, for example, our Governor's Commission on the Status of Women had had conferences by then on all of the University campuses in the state. Not simply for undergraduates, but related to the continuing education so that ordinary folks, housewives, people interested in going back to school, people interested in discussing their economic situation. These were people who had already been touched in some way by some of the notions like "Hey, what's going on here? Life ought to be better for women than it is." I don't know at what level people's insight or level of consciousness -- there was a fertile field.

MA:   Would you classify some of these women as working class women actually who were drawn to the issues?

KC:    Yes.

00:18:36

MA:   I guess that leads us to our next question which relates to NOW and their original purpose, whether NOW was trying to build a broad coalition or a pressure group? Did they want to find a small group of elite people who would garner a lot of publicity?

KC:   Very, very good question.  In fact, there was a great deal of ambivalence among the founding and the first national board about what kind of an organization....I only found out belatedly, in fact quite belatedly, that a number of the founding leadership people, Betty Friedan, Catherine East, Mary Eastwood, Pauli Murray, had had a series of conversations well before that June 1966 meeting and had kept saying there ought to be something for women comparable to the NAACP for Blacks.  That of course suggests a mass movement, not just a small elite group.  This question was put to us by ourselves.  I remember at our first national Board meeting of NOW which was about in November or soon after the organizing conference, we met in Betty Friedan's "Victorian apartment," as it was billed in the New York Times, and raised the question.  I remember Pauli Murray asking the question, "Do we want to stay a small, top leadership group or broaden our membership and work toward more of a mass organization." I don't know to what extent -- we didn't come up with an answer right away, there was no questions but what we wanted publicity and wanted to get the issues and the ideas as broadly spread as possible. One of the early women on the founding board was Muriel Fox who has continued to remain in leadership, largely with the legal defense and education fund in recent times.  She is a publicist, a PR person. She has been a vice, in fact I guess she's now retired, but as a Vice-president of Carl Beylar and Associates in New York which is an advertising outfit, so that professionally she....I probably mentioned in our earlier interviews how at every board meeting, and we had these board meetings around the country so that while we were there we could get some local publicity and as much TV and press as possible and recruit new members and that's when Betty Friedan would pick people to be on the board, to invite them and that kind of democratic participation we had in those early days.  It wasn't all bad either.  Muriel would write up the report of the meeting and made it sound as though we really knew what we were doing and that we did it well.  She would hoof these things around by taxi in the middle of the night so that they would make the morning papers or the morning press and we did manage to get publicity that went well beyond our numbers or our influence or whatever else. Whenever there was an action someplace when we got sufficiently organized so that things were going on, once again either she or others....In the very earliest days there was a great deal of either paranoia or perhaps reality in excluding press people from our meetings.  I think that continued for a long time in many strands of the women's movement and to put out our own report of what happened.

MA:   Are you suggesting that the publicity helped you build a mass base without you consciously saying "We're going to build a mass base?"

KC:   Yes, I think so. The publicity did and then of course other strands were developing on some campuses, the so-called self-styled, radical, women's liberation efforts. These things were spontaneous in many ways. They reflected the times in many ways and we know about the anti-war, anti-Vietnam groups where women felt put down even by their own colleagues, their male colleagues, and the same thing from the civil rights efforts, the women who were participating there. These things feed on one another.

00:24:33

I think also, out of the whole Commissions on the Status of Women who served a most important role in disseminating information.  Let me get back to the Kennedy Commission on the Status of Women. Their report American Women was really not only ground breaking but in many ways terribly radical.  People who read it think "My god this is mild stuff, of course we all know this and we all know that." But in 1961 to 63 we didn't all know how many legal disabilities there were, how much change needed to be made in the law. We hadn't really put together facts and figures on how few women were in elected office and what the economic situation was and the whole ball of wax. The information that was dug up and written about and the membership on that National Commission was really outstanding. That commission had access to endless expertise of people who were made available to them. That report was wonderful, but what's going to happen to it? It was predominantly the Commissions on the Status of Women which digested and purveyed and made accessible that information. They weren't the only ones but it took awhile for a lot of other organizations to catch on and to glom onto this. I think perhaps that is one of the primary benefits of the state Commissions. I know that in Wisconsin we patterned our organization and our selection of issues and our concerns pretty much after -- at least at the outset -- after the National Commission. It was the only model that existed.

00:27:15

Even though we as an organization, NOW, didn't say "now we are going to be a massive group." Nevertheless, as Betty Friedan flew around the country making speeches and giving her various presentations, she began to urge groups in the communities, there were enough, or even just a handful, to organize a chapter. We had absolutely no procedure for organizing chapters or chartering chapters. I can remember the first letter I received as chair of the board from a group in Philadelphia – I think it was Philadelphia, anyway it was in Pennsylvania -- that they wanted a charter for their chapter and what was the procedure. I had to make up something.  So we were very informal and lackadaisical because "chapters," and then when we would have a national board meeting Catherine Conroy finally began...people would expect and almost laugh when she would say "Now if we are really going to have chapters all over the place, and we are going to have national conferences or conventions, we better begin thinking about some kind of procedure and delegate selection procedure". She had her experience with the AFL-CIO and the unions and knew the importance of that kind of thing. Well, either the other members of the national board didn't think that was important or we were still so small and so non-cohesive that even being able to get a couple hundred people to come to a national meeting seemed a bonanza and when we met in Chicago we hoped that a lot of people from Chicago, Wisconsin, and Iowa would manage to get there, so why exclude....There were differences of opinion based on different kinds of experiences and different expectations. Conroy's expectation or hope was that it would be fair, and just because we were having a national convention in New York didn't mean that the New York and New Jersey folks ought to set the agenda for the nation.  But it took quite a few years before NOW as an organization did develop a process both for chartering local chapters and then we moved gradually to the notion of a state organization.  But it was all sort of like topsy, it just grew; it wasn't at the outset planned necessarily this way.

MA:   Initially then it sounds like policy probably was made by those members from the region where the conference would be held to a large extent because they were the people who attended.
	
KC:   That's right. Anyone who was a member or claimed to be a member could come in and vote, and so gradually that changed. I think it was always important as a position, I mean consciously important, that there be some if not elite –I think that was already a dirty word even that long ago – but some people who knew what they were doing. On our first national board for example, the historian, Carl Degler, was a member.  

00:31:27

We had – I've said this earlier too I'm sure – black men and black women and white men and white women and labor and non-employed and professional. A lot of the criticism of either the women's movement or of NOW as an organization that it was white middle class isn't entirely accurate.

MA:   You're saying that there was a conscious attempt that it not be so.

KC:   Of course the whole statement of purpose of NOW said that for eligibility for membership one had to eschew racism as well as sexism and that was from the beginning. Which isn't to say that it was always easy to recruit members from a wide ethnic range.

MA:   How did you try to do that? Did you have a policy or a program for how to recruit women of color and working class people?

KC:   I don't know that there was any great plan, in fact I haven't seen a great plan yet out of any organization that is successful, but certainly the will to do it was there.

MA:  Did you have for example an outreach committee or something to that effect?

KC:  The whole organization was an outreach committee.

MA:  Did you want to say any more about that before we move on?

KC:    I just think that it was important that there be people who, spokespersons and people with skills in the leadership of the organization. That was not something that anyone was suspicious of, that was absolutely essential.

MA:   So having a core of "elite" leaders if you will and a broad based movement were not necessarily contradictory?

KC:   That's right.

00:33:47

MA:   Let's move back to the Commission on the Status of Women. You have given a fair amount of information on how it worked – and what I recall from reading the transcripts are the conferences and the speakers that would address a wide range of issues.

KC:   You're speaking now of our State Commission?

MA:   Yes, your Wisconsin State Commission on the Status of Women.

KC:   The membership on our Commission was always excellent.  Not all 30 members equally excellent but that was crucial, of course. On our Wisconsin Commission we had men and women and we had again this broad range of people.  They had to be named by the governor. This was not like a sorority or a voluntary organization. It was voluntary in the sense that we had no compensation for serving on the Commission and we had to pay out of pocket for travel and meals and other things. We were able always to ask the governor, to say "It is important for what we wished to accomplish to have representation from the following segments". We would urge the governor to be sure we had farm and industry and business and educators and housewives, employed and not employed, poor people, we almost always had at least one welfare recipient and AFDC, and handicapped.  Then we would suggest to the governor – this was five different governors over a period of time – that here is a solid core of individuals who in our judgment ought to be renamed, these are the workers, the drones, and these are sort of deadwood who never came or didn't do much.

MA:   So he could reappoint in their position?

KC:    Yes. Then, one of the strengths of the Wisconsin Commission was that we always had representation from at least a half a dozen key state agencies whose work and programs impacted very immediately on the lives of women. Unfortunately that no longer exists, even on the Wisconsin Women's Council, and some of us argued in vain but...Why that didn't happen is another story but it did happen on our commission and that was so critical, so critical. I remember Doug Ager from Industry Labor and Human Relations who would tell us....Some of us who didn't have any great expertise eventually found out, for example, that our unemployment compensation rules were very discriminatory on the basis of pregnancy and that no female could collect unemployment compensation ten weeks before the birth of a baby and eight weeks after or whatever.  How do you go about changing that? We didn't know whether that was by statute or by administrative rule or how long it had existed or what was the rationale for doing it in the first place. We did know that it was damaging. By having a man like Doug Ager, he found out for us and said that is an administrative rule and can be changed at any time by the unemployment comp board and it had been in existence for this long, etc., and the way to get it changed is to request a presentation before that board and an explanation of why this was so damaging. That didn't happen overnight, it took a lot of doing, but that was just one tiny illustration. We had people from the Department of Public Instruction and I remember one of the – this is just one of tens of fishes one could name – when the Department of Public Instruction finally put out a requirement that teacher education institutions in the state, wherever they had teacher training, needed to incorporate in their curriculum some human relations training but they said nothing about sexism and we wanted that modified.  Sister Doral Reed who was the president of Alverno College was on our Commission at that time I remember and she knew how to write up some of this stuff so that it carried some weight.

MA:   Did you get that changed?

KC:    Yes.

MA:   So that is a very good example of how your Commission on the Status of Women worked at one level in terms of changing policy.

KC:    I guess what I had in mind when I mentioned the importance of having such good people...In some states a governor who didn't have any interest or understanding of what a Commission on the Status of Women could do would simple simply name a whole snag of women who had contributed to his campaign or they would be all Republicans or all Democrats depending on the party membership of the governor and some of them resembled a garden club. I am sure that Betty Friedan's continuing denigration of commissions, and she continued this year when she spoke at my retirement thing, without understanding that they were not all tea party, garden club kinds of people, but she got that impression at the outset and never changed, never eradicated it. That was true in some states.  

00:40:53

We had divided our commission into committees to work at what are the issues and where do we go with them.  We had terrific people in the state heading up those and membership on the committees.

MA:   So you would have on the one hand legal investigation of issues and then attempts to make change as a result of what you found?

KC:    And we looked at policies in Health and Social Services, of policies in respect to AFDC and others. The Justice System, Judge Irv Brunner chaired a committee that looked at that. We would visit the jails and other facilities to get a little better notion. Childcare, I suppose we called one committee Home and Family or some such thing which then gave us a broad range...We would zero in on some key issues and then where do we go with them?  You don't affect change only by going to the legislature or by speaking to the head of an agency but by educating as much of the citizenry of the state as possible and that then we would say this is such a hot issue and it is so important and there is so much ignorance or just lack of information that this really requires either a statewide conference and we had quite a few of those, or a regional conference. A number of times we had regional conferences simply because everyone in the state can't just pick up and come to Milwaukee or Madison.  By taking the meeting out to Platteville, Superior, and Oshkosh, etc, more people were able to get there. The public education aspect of what we did undergirded everything else. We put out sometimes brochures, or reports. I did one wise thing –in 1965 we issued are first report...Now when the President's Commission on the Status of Women had one report American Women and that terminated them, that was the end. My suggestion was that we call it our First Annual Report and not let anyone thing that we were going out of existence once we had surveyed the scene and investigated and made recommendations. That was what we did and every two years we....These reports were good. They were well written, not voluminous but right to the point.  When you consider that we had absolutely no budget for the first ten years of our State Commission, zero budget.

MA:   How did you work without a budget?

KC:    Very cleverly! I used to tell people that I grew up in the home of a Methodist preacher, which of course I did, and therefore I learned at an early age how to borrow from Peter to pay Paul.  One of the reasons that the Commission could exist without any budget was that I chaired it all those years and had permission from, consent from the university to use my office and my files and telephone and typing service and occasionally even travel money because it was consistent with the mission of my university office.  That, of course, is what made the difference. In many states people had to work off their kitchen table without any Xerox or typing or anything else. So that was part of it. When it came to publishing reports, we found ways of having agencies, and agencies who had active members on our commission, buy copies. Sometimes we would sell them. We would have reports available at these meetings around the state and add 50¢ to the registration cost and give out a copy of the publication.

MA:   As a money raising? 

KC:   To help pay for the publication cost.  Some agencies who had budgets to do it with would buy $1,000 worth.

MA:   To back up just a little, you said that the educational component was so crucial in all of the conferences around the state.  At the time that you would be sharing with the population your findings would you also be getting information from them as well and learning?

KC:   Sure.

00:46:28

MA:   How was that done?

KC:    At our conferences we would have small workshops and give and take so that folks from the audience would participate. We would frequently establish a panel, including local people, who would participate in these discussions. We also had good publicity for our State Commission. Thanks to, particularly to, some feminist journalists, Dorothy Witte Austin, I have a notebook about 3 inches fat of nothing but clippings of her coverage of our meetings in just the earlier years.  That of courses is another educational tool. If you get a really first rate report of something that happened, not just the fact that it did happen. Also the brochures, when we would do a brochure announcing a forthcoming conference of some kind, I have always been of the view that any brochure, or almost anything, ought to give a lot of information, because probably nine out of ten of the brochures that get distributed go to people who don't get to the meeting. They ought to learn something more than just the title of the meeting or who is going to be participating.  We always managed to get a little bit of information....so there were many ways.  I was surprised, pleased and surprised I guess, last year and the year before when I was doing interviews to incorporate into the course on American National Government under the Annenburg grant, and I interviewed Arthur Schlessinger, Jr., and he was talking about what qualities make a good president and one of the things he said was that a good president or effective executive must know that politics is an educational process. You educate people or you don't move along in the path that you want to go. I guess I had known that all my life but I had never articulated it in just that language.  I thought very much of our Commission work when I heard his comment about that.

00:49:34

MA:   One of the questions that I had for you was "What was your goal for the Commission at that time?" Would you say that educating people certainly was one?

KC:    Yes. I don't know whether that was a goal or a means to the goal but it certainly is an essential, absolutely essential. One can only...when you see the way that many people vote or the fact that people don't vote, it highlights again the importance of that.

MA:   What were the other goals for the commission? As a group did you actually sit down and articulate general goals?

KC:   I think we did from time to time at least. In fact I have a couple of videos of – I can't remember the date now but maybe around 1975 – we did some videotaping at a Commission meeting that was held in Stevens Point and about ten or a dozen of us on the Commission were interviewed by I guess a student or a faculty person up there but anyway we have it on video and each one talking about a particular issue area and what our goals were.  Each person could speak on behalf of the whole commission. We had pretty well defined goals. The overall goal was to create fairness and greater equity throughout our state with respect to men and women. I remember once again my friend Conroy used to say, in fact she told me she thought she was quoting me and I always thought I was quoting her so we obviously agreed on it that it was not the burden or goal, it was not the intent of our Commission on the Status of Women to shift disadvantages from one group to another but to eradicate the disadvantages.

00:51:55

MA:   Did you see legal changes as being a primary vehicle?

KC:    I don't know if I would say primary but it certainly was -- because it took quite a little while for me at least, and I think for others too, to realize the extent to which there were illegal disabilities. We encountered a few of the more flagrant things right at the outset. I remember a book, one of the earliest books that I bought that was addressed to women's status was by a sociologist from Iowa whose name escapes me, the book was called The Potential of Women, Lewis was his last name. It was a wonderful book for its time. It came out in the early or middle 60's.  He makes the statement that women have – he was talking about a lot of things that need to be changed throughout our culture and our society – however, he said women have attained legal equality. I wasn't startled by that, I thought well we can vote and we can do this or that.  By 1970, our Commission had been going for six years, when the big push to get congress to pass the Equal Rights Amendment began, and finally in 1972 congress did pass it. While that accelerated debate was going on, between 1970 and 1972, some of us on our Commission in Wisconsin spoke to the Governor and the Legislative Council and said by the time the Equal Rights Amendment is passed every state is going to have to bring all of their statutes into conformity with that principle and we might just as well get going in Wisconsin now. There was agreement and Wisconsin got going. We had the assistance of a wonderful, wonderful staff person I'm trying to recapture his name, I'm sure it will come to me in a minute,  and Marion Thompson, my colleague at the University and also a member of our Commission on the Status of Women, was named to that and Midge Miller so it was a good study committee.  They discovered 280 provisions in the Wisconsin statutes that treated men and women differently by the very language of the statutes, 280 provisions. If the great progressive state of Wisconsin had 280 you have to wonder how many Alabama and Louisiana, etc. would have. They did get going on making a lot of those changes so that omnibus legislation that was designed and then to get -- they took care of most of them except divorce reform and marital property and some welfare changes.  hose things were just so huge that they needed to be dealt with independently and were dealt with. Once the study committee did all of its work -- that guy's name keeps coming back and plaguing me, it isn't Boynton but it starts with Boy -- then how are we going to get this thing passed?  We put together a temporary coalition of some 13 organizations in the state with leadership from the Commission on the Status of Women and got support from -- I don't remember what they all were -- but a number of labor unions and League of Women Voters and I don't remember if Business and Professional Women....some little variety and together managed to help get that legislation passed.  

00:57:16

We also in 1973 hoped to have a state Equal Rights Amendment which was on the ballot, the spring ballot, and that was defeated even though this coalition was working hard to get it passed. It was the combination of the Catholic Church and the veteran's organizations and whatever other right wing stuff – Eagle Forum – that were a lot more powerful than we had anticipated. The big hue and cry on that spring ballot, in fact there were bumper stickers from the opposition saying "Vote yes for bingo, no for equal rights". That was the year that bingo became legalized in Wisconsin and that is what happened.  I guess police and fire departments gave a lot of right wing leadership in their communities because they wanted the opportunity to play bingo. It wasn't necessary to vote yes for bingo and no for equal rights but a lot of them did it.  

00:58:29

However, I was just pointing out how some of those legal changes...first we had to figure out what needed to be done and then how did it get done through law through legislation or through court or through administrative rule and then how do you rally the support, how do you get the word out to people that this is important and that this change would result in this and not in that. It took a lot of educating and a lot of speechmaking.

MA:   Did you make a lot of speeches personally?

KC:   Yes I did. I think I probably...I used to average 30 - 40 speeches in a year. I wrote them all at home, on my own time, and loved doing it. I used to love to give speeches; I don't love to do that so much anymore.

MA:   You've certainly done your share of it!

00:59:42

Do you think that once you were involved with NOW, you did continue working with the state Commission as well, did your work with the state Commission or did your approach to the Commission change after you became involved with NOW?

KC:    I don't recall any dramatic change at all. I know that my vocabulary became a little more forceful as I went along. How much was an influence from NOW and how much was just my own maturing and a greater receptivity to these ideas so that one didn't have to mince words so much I don't know. I imagine all of these things were going on at the same time. I have some audio tapes of interviews and things over the years and one of the most...David found one when he was cleaning out a closet a couple of years ago so I hadn't thought of it or listened to it and I couldn't believe....I was as correct on the issues and had as much of a global view as I think I do now but my language was so...not that I am ever anything but ladylike anyway, it may be one of my shortcomings but, so it wasn't a question of using vulgar language but we would talk about "disadvantages" instead of "discrimination."

MA:   And you didn't use the word oppression I imagine.

KC:   Oh right.

MA:  That's interesting.

01:01:32

KC:   I don't know...I do know that for a period of time after the formation of NOW my personal relationships with the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department were less than congenial. I think I mentioned that in earlier tapes.

MA:  You mentioned the conflict within the early NOW organization over the ERA.

KC:    Yes, that was one factor. But I think even more important almost, Mary Keyserling was director of the Women's Bureau and she felt stabbed in the back by the formation of NOW as though the Women's Bureau and the State Commissions were all that was needed to affect change. For another group to get itself together and say, "No that's not enough," was somehow an insult. I don't know what other feelings she had but she certainly didn't want any kind of communication. It was really only until Libby Koontz came in as director of the Women's Bureau that she made a conscious effort to mend those fences. She understood the importance of an outside force pushing and giving credence really to what the inside force was trying to do.

MA:   Do you think this spread to the state level and affected your relationship for a time with state labor leaders?  Were you suggesting that?

KC:    No, not at all.

MA:   It didn't go beyond the problem you were having with her then?

KC:    That's right. In fact I had, as chair of our Wisconsin Commission and also in my capacity at the University in doing continuing education, had relied very, very heavily on the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department in Washington to provide information and to dig up information if they didn't already have it. Catherine East in her capacity with the Citizen's Advisory Council on the Status of Women was based in the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department although she was not beholding to them in policies and administrative things. Both of those were constant and necessary and effective sources of the kind of information....it's one thing to say women are discriminated against in employment then if you don't know and can't cite the facts and figures and the consequences of those facts and figures, what are you talking about. I did miss the, of course I could call Catherine East in any case, and then I would find other staff people in the Women's Bureau who would still be responsive.

MA:   So you no longer had the direct link to the Women's Bureau that you had had before, that was the primary change?

KC:    Yes. It was a negative from my standpoint. Furthermore I felt I guess I don't like to have friends turn on me and be annoyed for something that I didn't regard this as a traitorous act and I didn't regard it as an opposition to what was going on. I had always, I don't know from when, but believed that you needed friends on the inside, allies on the inside, and you push from the outside and do these things always simultaneously. Maybe it isn't always the same people who do these things but both have to be going on. That is one of the great losses that the women's movement sustained under the Reagan administration, that the enormous wealth of brilliant women who were in the federal bureaucracy in the Carter years for example and even before that are just totally swept away. I may have mentioned in our earlier interviews the book called Women in Washington, I think that's the name of it, edited by somebody Tinker, that has about 20 separate essays each by a woman in a key government position, almost all of whom I had the opportunity to know and to work with at some level at least and they are all gone, they're not there. They had influence on the policies of those departments and they had contacts with some of us on the outside so that we could push them and they could respond.  

MA:   That is just what I was thinking, that was what you were able to successfully do in the state of Wisconsin.

01:07:13

I think that actually you have answered this last question about your assessment regarding the commission but perhaps you have more that you would like to say about it?  It certainly sound like it worked well from everything you said.

KC:   Out state commission.

MA:   Yes.

KC:   Then of course in 1970, again with the encouragement and enabling action of Libby Kontz we did create a National Association of Commission for Women. Very loosely organized but...In 1969 Libby Koontz, George Schultz was then Secretary of Labor, invited one representative from each of the 50 states. The invitation went to the governor to send one person, it could be the chair of a commission or it could be someone else, and so we did meet, 50 of us.

MA:   And you were sent from the state of Wisconsin?

KC:    I was. We were asked did we want to have our own association so we could have our own national meetings without reference to the invitation coming from the feds and we all said yes we'd like that, so we established a steering committee of ten people and I was chosen to be on that steering committee and then I think I told you I left the room and was named chair of that steering committee. Then I worked for a year with other members of the steering committee being in touch with all of the states and deciding what kind of an organization, etc., etc., so in 1970 when the Women's Bureau had a big national meeting celebrating their 50th birthday the commission members came together the previous day and actually organized and elected officers.  I was elected first president of that....first we called it the Inter-state Association of Commissions and later changed the name to National Association of Commissions. We organized that national association as much as possible along the lines that the Wisconsin Commission had....I suppose it was a natural that as chair of the planning committee and then first president I wouldn't suddenly be doing something totally different.  Also, we managed to get into that national association some of these notions of the importance of broadly based membership on their own state commissions and the importance of a progressive agenda and some "how to get things done" kinds of information, so that some of the less progressive commissions did benefit a great deal from the kind of....We put out for example three different editions over several years of a handbook called the Handbook for Commissions on the Status of Women. The "we" who put it out were right here in Madison. Mary Thompson and I were the primary writers.  It sounds like a nothing, handbooks for commissions, were in demand by all kinds of organizations nationally and because they had ideas in it that were applicable to any kind of organization.  Then a couple of years later we were asked to update it. We had some funding from the Women's Bureau of the Labor Department to do those publications. They helped us fund quite a few of those things.  

01:11:32

I should say, having used Libby Koontz's name so often and Catherine Conroy's too, Libby Koontz died last December of cancer at age 69.  She was in her home in Salsbury, North Carolina. Catherine Conroy died this February, age 69, of cancer, here in Wisconsin. I just wanted to record that.

MA:   Libby Koontz's name is spelled with a K?

KC:    K-o-o-n-t-z.  Her name is Elizabeth Duncan Koontz.

MA:   Conroy is with a C?

KC:    Yes.

01:12:12

MA:   It sounds like in your assessment regarding the Commission you just gave an excellent example of the broadness of its influence in terms of being a role model in a sense for your national commission and then the book, the Handbook on Commissions. Of course through your chairing and your being first president I can see how that would happen but it would also need to be approved by other people. It must have certainly been seen as a very good commission.

KC:    Sure. But I think once again just historically, I don't believe we would ever have had either NOW as it was in its early days or the kind of snowballing of the women's movement, the feminist movement in this country except for the role played by the Commission on the Status of Women.

MA:   Yes, and that is a role that has been ignored.

KC:    Yes, or denigrated or at least underplayed.

MA:    Is there any more that you want to say about the Committees on the Status of Women, the state committees?

KC:   I suppose...that national association continues to exist. Some states do and some states don't have commissions or their equivalent because nomenclature has changed over the years. I haven't gone to a meeting of the National Association, they have annual meetings, I can go whenever I want to because there is a council of past presidents and we get to attend conferences without paying the registration costs.

MA:   Now finally when you can afford it you no longer have to pay.

KC:   I clipped a little cartoon, I sent it to my daughter recently, of two old duffers sitting on a park bench and one of them saying "You know, by the time you have money to burn the fire is gone." Mine isn't quite money to burn yet, nor will it be. I guess what I was going to say was that I'm not sure, I don't think that the National Association of Commissions is as effective now as it was for awhile. We did have a Washington presence. We didn't have an office but we always had somebody who would speak on our behalf and when heads of national organizations would convene or would work together in coalitions to try to get something to happen in Washington we would have representation. It sounded like NOW in its early days. We made it sound as much like the marching millions as possible, so the national association....In fact, that was the auspices under which I was signed on to the Rowe v. Wade amicus brief.

MA:   I don't think we've talked about this. I'm positive we haven't.

KC:   I uncovered this little paperback when I was pawing through my office stuff and discovered it was the amicus brief for Rowe vs. Wade. The brief was filed in 1972 and the court decision came down in 1973 and low and behold there I was, my name was in it as president of the Inter-state Association of Commission. Then I remembered that Maria Maas, the author, had been the person who was soliciting signatures on this thing and had written to me and phoned I think. I'm in very good company. There were a lot of wonderful people who signed on to that from various organizations. That was just kind of exciting because it was one of many things that always slip my mind totally unless I paw around.

MA:   I'm glad you mentioned that.

01:16:55

I'm thinking back to the state commissions, the conferences that would exist, the middle class housewives and working class people and various people who would come to the conferences. Do you have any information about what those people would do when they would leave? Did any of them form groups of any sort to continue contact or continue some kind of process around the issues?

KC:    I don't know that we kept...I know that we did not keep actual tabs on who came to something and what happened afterwards. I do know that a lot of people, you know NOW has something like 22 or 27 chapters in this state. My University office used to keep a map of Wisconsin and had different colored pins for different organizations. It was very useful when we were trying to get some coalition stuff together but the number of League of Women Voters, and AAUW and DPW and NOW around the state, and I do know that some of this was a result...I don't know...When I was doing for three years a project to move women into apprenticeships we know that...

MA:  This is part of your continuing education program?

KC:    Yes. Moving women into nontraditional occupations. We had meetings and speeches and things around the state and there were people who would come to the meetings and say I'm thinking about this.

MA:   So there was overlap you're saying?

KC:    Sure. In the early days of my continuing education stuff which I began in 1961, by 1963 I was getting a little bored, not bored but weary of having so many individual people coming into my office and a lot of things were beginning to sort of repeat themselves. Patterns were emerging of the needs and so in large part to try to kill many birds with one stone we set up a summer evening four session course, once a week for four sessions. We called it "Today's Woman in Tomorrow's World".  That was a not very flashy title that we stole from the Women's Bureau of Publication. We thought maybe we'd get 20 or 30 people in one fell swoop and could help them with some individual counseling and some encouragement, etc. One hundred and twenty signed up the first year. They came from all over the state. Many of them had been to a conference or a something.  This was still in 1963 mind you. I still hear from some of those women that this opened up a whole new...We repeated that course for three summers and gradually the enrollment fell off but not totally, I'm sure we could have continued it for a long time. But three years was about as often as I wanted to do much of anything, so I would find a legitimate reason not to do it anymore.

MA:   So you think that you can't actually identify but you think some of the new charter organizations of NOW in the state certainly had people who were involved?

KC:    Yes, and who were influenced.

MA:   In the state commission or perhaps had been to continuing education classes?

KC:    Or had read reports or whatever. We did a lot of television stuff. When our Commission on the Status of Women in Wisconsin put out its first edition of Wisconsin Women and the Law we did first one in 1975, then one in 77, and one in 79. I used to joke about it and say you'd think it was Peyton Place revisited it was such a hot item Wisconsin Women and the Law. We distributed 10,000 copies and more were in demand.

MA:  That's a very good example.

01:22: 02

KC:    At this last October 20, 1988 retirement party at the Sheraton there were five presidents of the National Association for Commissions who came.  I was the first and then Joy Simonson who lives in Washington, D.C., then Emily Taylor who is now back in Kansas, and number four from California didn't come, but Patricia Hill Burnett the portrait artist from Detroit was the fifth one and then the incumbent president, a women who lives in Iowa and chaired the Iowa Commission came. I didn't know who the guest list was that were appraised of the fact that this event was going to take place until I started getting phone calls from Joy Simonson, from Catherine East, from Emily Taylor saying "we're coming". I just about dropped the telephone. Then I said "Do you want to stay at my house?" Because I figured if they were paying their air fare that that was enough of an expense without a motel, so I had what my daughter Janet called a slumber party.

MA:   How wonderful!

KC:    It was wonderful. It was wonderful that these folks came but it also suggests that we've stayed in touch all these years and we continue to do business together.

MA:   A beautiful example of the old girls network.

KC:   That's right. Catherine East, I just saw a reference to her in the newspaper the other day is some kind of researcher in residence business and professional...She's writing up a book about the women's movement that I hope to give greater accuracy than a lot of the stuff.

MA:  And you have faith that her recording will?

KC:    Oh yes. In fact she is a stickler for, she would never have an interview like this and rely on her memory! She'd have documents down here and would have dates and names absolutely authenticated and documented. When Catherine was here in October she had to rush back, she was the first to break up the slumber party, and one of the reasons she was going back was the hope to do some interviews with Libby Koontz, in fact hoped to go and visit her. She never did get to visit her because Libby wasn't well enough to receive visitors. However, at Libby's suggestion, on a good day when she felt like talking she would get in touch with Catherine and Catherine was able to do several hours of taping interview over the telephone.

MA:   Wonderful!

KC:    So she has those but I'm sure not nearly as much.... Now we were interviewing, we, Joanne Reka was interviewing Catherine Conroy as part of this oral history program and at Catherine's funeral services this woman came up and introduced herself and she is your counterpart, the woman who was conducting interviews with Catherine and with several other labor women, feminists, in the Milwaukee area. I asked her how much she had. She said she only had the tip of the iceberg, but she had eight hours of interview on tape.

MA:   Good. That's nice. It's happening all over isn't it?

01:26:01

Second Interview Session (March 16, 1989), Tape 14

00:00:16

MA:    Let's begin with the Houston Conference and the national plan of action.

KC:    I think maybe I should, even at the risk of repeating some of the things we've said earlier, let me at least remind you once again of how I got involved in the Houston Conference, the International Women's Year Commission. It was President Nixon who first proclaimed after the United Nations said "1975 will be International Women's Year" that proclamation was made prior to 1975 while Nixon was still in office so he did declare that the United States would participate and would have some recognition of International Women's Year. Then he was out of office and Gerald Ford was in the Presidency, so Gerald Ford then did name a commission, a U.S. Commission on the observance of International Women's Year. Ford named Jill Ruckelshouse to chair that commission. I think she is one of the outstanding and wonderful women in the United States.  She was at one time the national president of the National Women's Political Caucus and is a very attractive in every way person and a very able administrator. While she was chairing the commission which, because it was named by Ford had a predominance of Republican members on the commission but not totally and there were a few men named on that commission. Catherine East was already on the staff. She had resigned from the executive chair of the Citizen's Advisory Council and was on the staff. I am sure that it was Catherine East who suggested to Jill Ruckleshouse that I might be a useful citizen member of some of their subcommittees.  I had just in 1973 had an active part in our first national conference on Women in the Arts which was held at Wingspread and which was a very influential and important conference with a publication that was very useful. With that experience, I was asked to serve on the subcommittee on Arts and the Humanities so I would go to Washington when that committee would meet and met for a couple of days. I met quite a few people in that process. Not very long after that they were developing another subcommittee on homemakers. Well, Catherine East knew that as chair of the Wisconsin Commission I had helped to organize and put on six conferences around the state on Homemaking and the Family: Changing Values and something else in the subtitle. Once again she suggested, in that case Martha Griffith was chairing the Committee on Homemaking and the Family, that I would be a useful person. So I was on two committees that met at different times so I make a number of trips to Washington and again met more and more people and enjoyed it.

00:04:12

While I was there Jill Ruckleshouse asked me if I would be the conference coordinator for the national conference. Now I should back up again to say that in December of 1975 Bella Abzug and Patsy Mink introduced to congress legislation calling for a national women's conference to be subsidized by the government, to have preliminary meetings in all 50 states and 6 territories that would be in preparation for the national conference at which delegates would be elected and issue ideas would be voted, on etc. So, Jill Ruckleshouse asked me if I would be the conference coordinator and I couldn't picture how that would work out in my life because it really meant staying in Washington and being there all the time which I didn't feel able to do. I finally worked out a compromise with her and said that I could be part-time. I could come to Washington for a week or two at a time knowing that I could stay with Catherine East and just take part-time leave from the University and that that would work out. So I was called the Deputy Conference Coordinator and did that on a part-time job. Then with the change, well I don't need to move into the Carter administration yet. At some point Jill Ruckleshouse left Washington. It was after the Saturday night massacre when her husband resigned his job because Cox was fired, etc., so the Ruckleshouse's moved to the west coast and Ford then had to name a new chair to that commission and named Elizabeth Vanasaucus who was an attorney and a judge in Florida. I still continued, I mean she didn't unseat me and it was still a very compatible, a nice bipartisan thing which in my observation and experience women are frequently better able to do than men. Not always, certainly during the Reagan years and subsequently, a lot of that bipartisanship has unfortunately evaporated even among women.  

00:07:00

One of the things that I did at some stage and I can't remember if it was - I guess it was while Vanasaucus was still there - one assignment that I was given was to prepare a handbook for these state and territorial meetings, how to conduct their business because one of the things the national commission had to do was to name the planning committees in the 56 states and territories. Well to sit in Washington and to identify individuals in all of those states who would be widely representative and still able to function and to work together was no mean trick. So, from Washington we sent to organizations, including labor unions, a letter saying, "Would you identify individuals in these various states who should be considered to serve on those planning committees."  Some of us who had state connections, I had no problems making suggestions for the state of Wisconsin, and we had friends that we could call on from other states and say "Whom would you suggest?" Sometimes we had to rely on national organizations. I remember several unions that responded immediately and gave us good names in all of these jurisdictions and others didn't respond. There were 40 or 50 national women's organizations that were very good about responding.

MA:   What would you do if you didn't get a response?

KC:    Well, we'd pick up the phone and call....you mean from an organization?

MA:    Yes, if you were still searching because the organization had not responded?

KC:   Well, we did some phone follow-up if not with national officers with individuals we knew who had been influential in that organization and were acquainted around the country. Or we would.... oh if we might have known a law professor in Arizona or a former commission member somewhere else and we relied on our own little networks to say "Would this be a good person to chair that committee?" or "Do you know any Native American women in your state who should be on this?" We had to do a lot of that sort of thing just to get those committees named and in place. Then, in addition to that, the assignment that I had that was fun to work on was to prepare a handbook detailing how those planning committees should function. I did do that and then they named a journalist named Dorothy Journey who was appended to the staff or was a consultant to the staff, a very nice person and a very able journalist, to help us on the editing of what I had done. We sat down together a couple of times and made a few corrections. I can remember a very high compliment that I received on that handbook when it was finally finished. It was good.  It took into account a lot of aspects that might not normally...I think I'd had so much experience in running conferences and I liked to write things like that, so anyway, it was a fun assignment for me. Anyway, the high compliment came from John Mack Carter, the editor of Good Housekeeping I think. He and Sy Chestler and a number of men were on the IWY Commission and so were a number of women who edited big women's magazines, which was very useful. They would get the word out about a lot of things, issues as well as the forthcoming conference, etc. Anyway, he said it was the best thing he'd ever seen along those lines.

MA:   How would you characterize it? What made it so good? For example, if I was given the task of writing a pamphlet of that sort what would you tell me?

KC:    I don't know if I can dredge enough of it up to even give you a proper response. How to go step-by-step, how to get your folks together, how to conduct meetings, what the objective was and what the intent of the legislation was that they needed to stay in touch with, and how to outreach so that people would come to their statewide meeting, how they would hear about it, how they would know they were welcome. How to conduct all this planning in advance and then how to conduct their statewide meeting. At each statewide meeting...hen we had to kind of schedule...Now I'm away from the handbook again.

MA:   That's fine.

00:12:50

KC:    Each of these 56 state meetings had to be held before a certain date in order that we would have the results of what they did and could shuffle ahead before the November Houston conference. So we needed to have dates.  Then the IWY Commission decided that they would have at least two commission members present at each of these state meetings to be sure that they were run in accordance with the requirements of the Feds so we had to allocate those people and ask them whether it was appropriate for them to go. We tried to foresee glitches and head them off but we certainly were not always successful in that. For example, there was no prerequisite of age in order to come to the state meetings and vote. My recollection from reading the transcript of our previous conversation was that you were present at the state of Washington meeting and that busloads of Mormons came in with their little children and I suppose we had no requirements that you had to be twelve years old or sixteen years old in order to vote for delegates so these busloads that came in with little kids all voted.

MA:   Do you think they voted for their children as well, I mean the children's vote was counted as well?

KC:    Sure. I know that.

MA:   Oh my! What a glitch!

KC:   That was just one of the things. We also didn't anticipate these busloads.

MA:   Of course. That's the kind of thing it would be really hard to anticipate.

KC:    After this had happened in a few states, you know too little too late. Even then the Utah meeting was still an absolute shock. What was the name of the lieutenant governor from the state of New York? I want to say Mary Anne Kusack but that wasn't it. It was something that started with "K". She was one of the commissioners who went to the Utah meeting and she kept phoning in that morning as additional busloads

MA:   You were talking about the Utah delegation and the representative phoning back.

KC:    As the mobs increased and a "What do I do now?" sort of thing because 13,000 people came to a meeting where they expected 5,000. Anyway, there were a lot of things like that.

00:15:51

MA:   I'm curious about outreach. You said in your handbook you gave instructions or guidelines for outreach. What were they? I think outreach is always a problem, that's why I'm asking.

KC:    I suppose essentially the message was that the normal mainstream channels of communication do not reach people who don't belong to organizations, don't reach people who just...I'm thinking of unorganized but also low income, poor, in many communities minorities, so that they needed to have methods of getting the word out that would go through other kinds of channels. We were very specific in suggesting places and people and putting notices in churches and I suppose at the welfare office. I don't remember but we had a lot of specific suggestions. Then some concrete stuff on how to conduct elections for delegates and pointed out that delegates to the Houston conference needed to be elected at the state meetings so that whole apparatus. Then of course once the state meetings were about to be held the most specific business of those state meetings was to have an educational component on the issues and to take some votes on the issues. The staff in Washington had been very busily preparing materials that could be used by the Planning Committees on a whole range of issues that were very likely to be incorporated in the final national plan of action. Our staff prepared material on maybe 20 or 30 umbrella issue areas and suggested literature they could be reading, distributing, speakers they could call, questions that they could consider, just a lot of wonderful educational material for the use of the Planning Committee and for their use at the state meeting. It was not to put words in their mouth to say this is where we want you to come out with this but rather, "these are the obvious issues confronting women these days and we want to hear from your state meeting on what people feel about this."

00:19:10

MA:   Do you recall what the most controversial issues were at the time?

KC:    Sure, reproductive rights, the lesbian question, not question but lesbian rights, in some communities the Equal Rights Amendment. I think those were the predominantly...However I think at Houston itself, only one plank in the national plan of action was carried unanimously and that was one that dealt with women in business.

MA:   Really, only one carried unanimously?

KC:   Because there were seven or eight or maybe as many as nine states that sent delegations that were quite conservative. Some of them just went down the line opposing everything. So, that was part of the politics at Houston. Let me see if I've done enough...

00:20:25

I should repeat, and I know I said this earlier, the national legislation which Bella and Patsy Mink had initiated was specific that the representation that elected delegates 2,000 elected delegates going to Houston. They were to be elected by states; each state would have a proportionate number related to the Congressional Delegation so it was a population representation. Each delegation should be a real mix and the legislation was specific, a mix with respect to economics, educational attainment, race, religion, not previous condition of servitude but occupational

MA:   Was sexual preference in there?

KC:    It was not in the legislation, no. Anyway, this was something that was really stressed in the handbook to the state people to make darn sure that their delegation really was balanced. I did mention in an earlier tape that when the list of delegates came in to the National Commission and we checked it for demographics, there was no opportunity for the National Commission to make corrections, I mean to say to the state you flubbed the dub here. However they did have the opportunity to name some additional people to balance out the total thing and they were called delegates-at-large. What was discovered was that with the exception of these few states that had very conservative votes on issues as well as obvious over representation at their meetings of ultra conservative

MA:   So those six or seven states you're not talking about when you talk about the broad representation?

KC:   That's right. All the rest had more minority people than were represented in their total state, a higher percentage of racial minorities, of low income, of young people. All the categories that we were worried would not be properly represented were in fact over represented. When the National Commission had the option of naming some additional delegates-at-large to fill out, the short falls were in white, middle class, and elderly which was just a total surprise because the people had bent over backwards in their state to do a proper job. Of course it was possible to elect and send people of low income and otherwise because the payment to the National Conference was subsidized by the money...Congress only allocated five million dollars for this whole enterprise, all of the state meetings, all of the staff work that I've talked about and the Houston conference itself.  They first authorized ten million and then the right wingers got on it and persuaded people to cut that back to five million. We were able to do it partly, we were able to do it because the State Department lent staff people and picked up the postage and provided the office space so that those things didn't need to come out of that five million or it would not have gone nearly as well as it did.

MA:   You paid the way then to the conference for all of the delegates?

KC:   That's right, and that made it possible for people to be there.

MA:   It sounds like then that we could conclude that in most states the outreach worked then?

KC:   That's right.

MA:  Really worked!

00:24:58

KC:    Right. A lot of these state meetings were very embattled and very political, not in the partisan sense but in doing political maneuvering and negotiating. The New York meeting, I didn't attend but certainly heard a lot about, and that was one that was just fraught with

MA:   Do you remember what the issues were in the New York meeting?

KC:    No, I don't really. I could dredge awhile but...and Bella was there...I should get back I guess to say that by the time Carter was elected president he then named Bella Abzug chair of the Commission and made a lot of other changes in the personnel on the Commission. Allen Alda was there for awhile and I think was a Carter appointment and Jean Stapleton and both of them were very active participants. Other actors and star people had been named on previous commissions, Katherine Hepburn at one time and I can't name others right now, but who didn't really come and get involved but Jean Stapleton was as knowledgeable, and enthusiastic, and participated as much as any person on that commission. She was just a real pleasure, nothing "big shotty" about her at all, very lovely to work with.

00:26:57

So when Bella came in as chair she said to me, she didn't ask me, she told me that I had to be the Executive Director. So I finally...

MA:   Again you were reluctantly pulled in.

KC:    My reluctance wasn't that I didn't want to do it. We all kept telling each other that it was the only show in town. I mean, it was the only place to be and to be doing things. It was my personal life and how to handle things but it worked out.

MA:   How old were the kids when you were doing this?

KC:    It was 1975-76 until 1978 that I was really doing all of that.

MA:   Eleven years ago, so young adults.

KC:    Oh yes, and not around.

MA:   But Hank was sick then?

KC:    Yes. Janet may have still been--she was still here at the University but she wasn't living at home.

MA:   But you had to balance care for Hank with being away.

KC:    Yes. In fact he was still working a little bit, still had his office over here at Regent and Allen. It was while I was in Washington that he closed down his office and stopped working altogether. He kind of sneaked that. He had been talking about that for a while and I had been encouraging him not to do it because I thought it was important for his psyche that he have a reason to get up and get dressed and go over to his office whether he conducted any business or not. He got his brother to help him move his desk out of there.

00:29:15

Gerta had asked us to talk a little bit about what we did at Houston and I had earlier talked about all of the negatives and the anxieties and what we did about that but I guess I didn't really talk about adopting the National Plan of Action which was the purpose of the meeting.  The IWY Commission and staff had had from each state meeting had had votes on all of the results of the voting and the issues and had those all together in Washington and then we put them together in a very honest kind of way and by pooling all of that information we put together a tentative plan of action which would then be what the elected delegates would consider in Houston and could amend from the floor and make changes and then vote them up or down as amended on the floor so it was a democratic kind of process in Houston. There were people who came to the conference wearing big "pro-plan," people who were going to adopt this tentative plan and vote entirely for it and there were others who were not "pro-plan." Before Houston (I think I may have already talked about this) there were some forty national organizations with headquarters in Washington whose leadership met together once a week in order to counter the negatives of the ultra conservatives and to dispel some of the lies that were being flooded around, they would get the word out to their constituency across the nation saying support Houston, come to Houston, don't believe this, that, and the other, and did whatever they could do and then also from their national offices in Washington, got publicity. One of our staff people, Kathy Bonk, whose name I mentioned earlier, not today but in previous sessions, had some staff assistance and she was just on the telephone constantly drumming up press people to be at Houston. Ultimately 1,500 press people from all of the media were there so getting the press briefing books together for that many people was an enormous chore, and one that was very well done.  

00:32:35

	    In addition to the plenary session where the 2,000 elected delegates debated and voted

MA:   On each plank?

KC:    Yes. In addition to that there was a regular...this whole conference had probably 20,000 people who came not as delegates and there were—I was going to say side shows—other conference activities going on in this big conference center not plenary session at all.

MA:   Simultaneously?

KC:    Yes. There was a huge area of booths where people were displaying stuff or selling stuff and all of that had to be arranged and set up and then there were some forty or fifty women who had key national positions who each did an hour or half hour presentation of what her job is and what policies came out of her office and what useful for women could be done. It also encouraged folks in the audience not only to be informed but to be able to lobby and to push certain things.

MA:   So those 2,000 people in the audience

KC:   The 2,000 delegates were there doing business all the time.

MA:   Then how many people in the audience?

KC:    Not in the audience but milling around the place and going to

MA:   The periphery and going to...

KC:    To displays and presentations.

MA:    They just came on their own to see what was happening?

KC:   That's right. There was an area where there was art stuff and there were performance, there was a theater with performances. I remember I sneaked out at one point from backstage where otherwise I spent my entire time to see one performer, a woman I had known in New York and I didn't even know she was a performer and comedienne, and I went in to watch her thing. There just were many other things that were all feminist going on. There was plenty for people to do. There were some audience spaces up in the balcony for people who wanted to watch the proceedings but it would by no means hold 20,000 so they were milling around doing other things.

00:35:27

MA:   Did the 2,000 delegates pretty much stay for the whole thing and vote? I think of the House of Representatives or the Senate where people are absent so often.

KC:    No. They did in fact stay and do their job. There were alternates for each...The delegates were seated by states with big placards telling where they should sit and there were alternates so that if someone wanted to leave for awhile she would summon her alternate to sit in. For the most part they wanted to make sure that they were there to vote. Some things had...for each of the twenty-five planks, one member of the IWY Commission made the presentation, made the motion that this be adopted, and then there was debate.  

00:36:29

I think one of the exciting planks was the minority women's plank.  There had been a lot of...The proposed plank that had been brought to Houston, if my memory is correct on this, I've forgotten what we called that preliminary thing—we didn't call it preliminary or tentative—the think that came as an agenda to Houston was a...gave us something to go by. My memory is that there was one plank for minority women. The various constituents of racial minority women were very unhappy with this because each Native Americans, Asian Pacific women, and Black women, and Hispanic, each felt, and rightly so, that they had some unique and specific goals and situations that should be expressed so they didn't want to all be lumped together.

MA:   Did the plank then get broken down into more?

KC:   Yes. In fact, knowing that this was the way people felt there were sessions scheduled in the evening before this was even taken up in the plenary session for these categories, for the minority women to meet together and see what they could work out. There were some very well known leadership people and then others who were elected delegates who came to those sessions. What they handed out was just wonderful.  It's in the National Plan of Action now with a separate subsection from each category and then an overall of things that applied to them all.  That was what got presented as a substitute on the floor and that's what was passed. It was a very emotional part of the plenary session.

MA:   I'll bet it was.

KC:   On the videos of the Houston conference you see this.

MA:   They had given their representation then, they had enough numbers to make that happen and to feel powerful enough to make changes.

KC:   That's right, and of course it wasn't opposed except by a couple of the all white southern states to which no one paid too much attention.

MA:  That's very interesting.

KC:   That was very emotional.  

00:39:26

When the plank on sexual preference was being debated there were some very impassioned negative statements, especially from some of the very religious fundamentalists.  It was a great joy to a lot of people when Betty Friedan gave an impassioned speech in favor of adopting the plank.  She has of course a long history of not being too friendly with the lesbian community and being not very well liked by people in the lesbian community so that was a very well received statement.  She wasn't being a hypocrite, she was saying she had changed her views on a lot of these things and felt obliged and wanted to make this public statement.

MA:   You have referred to that in the past and I have been struck by it because your description of this differs of course from what I have read. I don't think that Betty Friedan is given credit for an honest change of opinion at Houston and you certainly have stressed the honesty with which she has confronted this issue all the way through.

KC:    I think if there is one thing that describes her it is integrity and honesty. She was in great...Betty Friedan had a great difference of opinion with a lot of the women in NOW and in the caucus. Just a couple of years ago on the subject of whether there should be special treatment in the law regarding pregnancy. Catherine East and Betty were just at opposite ends of the...Catherine East is of the view that if we do anything special for women because of reproduction that this is going to turn out to be a negative for the employment of women. Betty Friedan says that the fact is that unless women have some special attention they are never going to compete on any equal thing. They were both giving testimony in some West Coast thing, I think the State of Washington

MA:   It was probably the comparable worth debate that brought in a lot of other issues as well.

KC:   But, those are two people who have very definite opinions on a lot of things. In fact Catherine East spoke at Houston to our astonishment in opposition to the sexual preference plank.

MA:   Oh she did?

KC:    Yes she did. Her view is that that is not a women's issue. Sexual preference, while she disapproves of discrimination on the basis of sexual preference and thinks that there should be legislation prohibiting, and housing and that it should apply to both men and women and she doesn't see sexual preference as a "women's" issue and so on that grounds she spoke. I know that her daughter was there at the conference, she wasn't an elected delegate but she was there, she had been very helpful in the torch run, you know prior to Houston the torch was run from Seneca Falls to a place called Seneca Falls South. Betsy East is very active in the National Association of Sports for Women and Girls and she came to me in tears before that session, and she said "My mother's going to speak against this, can't you do anything to stop her?" I said "Betsy I wish I could but I can't."

MA:   But the plank passed?

KC:   Oh yes, with only a few of these state delegations and a few individuals who voted against it. When it did pass of course there was this out flying of balloons from all over the place which said "We are everywhere."

00:44:12

I've told you this little...Did I tell you previously, if so I won't tell you now about my two friends from Milwaukee who were sitting up in the balcony?

MA:   No you didn't.

KC:    And watch these two men from Utah telling the women in their various Mormon delegations how to vote.

MA:   I don't think you've told the story.  I think we've alluded to that because it was made fairly public in things that I've read that this sort of thing was going on.

KC:   The thing that Annie Kromp was not a delegate but was up in the balcony watching, she was one of Catherine Conroy's protégées, I don't know who she was with but a couple of these Milwaukee union young women were up in the balcony and getting more and more furious because they were sitting right behind these two men who were giving hand signals to the women on how to vote and when to speak and it was making these two furious wondering what to do about it. Finally, at one point one of these men was leaning over the other with his arm kind of on his shoulder and they were whispering about what they were going to do next and Annie leaned over and tapped them both on the shoulder and said "It's so nice to have you gay men with us."

MA:   You didn't tell me the story.  I'll bet that just made them terribly embarrassed.

00:45:51

KC:    Now in between votes in the plenary session there were important speeches by wonderful people.  Barbara Jordan and the three First Ladies, Lady Bird, Betty Ford, and Rosaline Carter, and Judy Carter, the daughter-in-law of the President, was very active throughout the planning and of course she barnstormed the country with—

Tape 14/ Side 2

00:46:43

I was just mentioning Judy Carter whom I got to know when we were both at the Woodstock Conference Center down in Illinois. She was one of the six of us who tried to put that together and worked on it for awhile.  Anyway, she is a very remarkable person.

So, the voting and discussion of issues was interspersed with various things and of course a very melodramatic beginning of the whole conference with the sort of drum and bugle corps and the torch was carried in and a lot of these dramatic things.

MA:   It must have been very touching to observe.

KC:    It was, and very exhausting because Bella is such a taskmistress that she would have the whole staff at the end of the day when we were already ready to just succumb then she'd have a staff meeting till two or three in the morning and then we'd start again at seven in the morning.  A couple of us, Linda Doering and myself, Linda was our legal counsel, both had terrible colds, almost flu, so we were trying to function and under those circumstances it was not easy.

MA:   I can imagine.

00:48:10

KC:    Anyway, these program highlights...Toward the end of the, in fact the very last plank in the National Plan of Action, number 26, I speak of the 25 substantive plans because the 26th one was a proposal calling on the President of the United States to name an ongoing commission to be responsible for implementing this National Plan of Action. That was the most controversial of any of the planks. It was not something that had come from the state meetings. It was something that the National Commission and especially Bella Abzug had wanted to have passed. In order to try to make sure that it got passed Bella had sent some of her lieutenants out to twist arms, to get people to understand why this was important or to go for it. Gloria Steinem was going around twisting arms and somehow this was interpreted by a lot of people as a bid on behalf of Bella for a place, a podium.

MA:   Was there fear of institutionalizing this?

KC:    I don't think so. I think there was just 

MA:   Fear of her power?

KC:    Yes. I don't know just how much of the fear was actually toward Bella or what it was but it was not going.  Then people resented having their arms twisted in this fashion. There was a real...From the chair there was a real...The whole feeling of the plenary session which had been one of great unity and of significant comments.  You know when people spoke it wasn't just to hear their own voices; it was because they felt very strongly one way or another. There were some excellent amendments made from the floor to some of these...I remember the rural women one had – which was of special interest to me – had a couple good amendments and others did too, so this wasn't a steam roller operation. Even from the beginning the stuff that they were voting on had come from the state meetings so it was a very democratic process all the way through.

MA:   But this 26th plank was an exception.

KC:   That's right. The meeting disintegrated and the chair had trouble keeping order and just a lot of things were leaving a very bad taste because this was the final thing to be done. One of the staff women came to me and said "This is terrible! We can't let the meeting end on this kind of a shambles." She had already spoken with Margie Adam who was there.

MA:   The singer?

KC:    Yes. To say would Margie do something to give us closure, that would be on an up-beat note.  In order to do this we needed the piano up on the stage and the stage was up steps but mostly it was the kind of pushing...I was backstage and I wasn't as aware of how in shambles...So I did agree with this young staff person, Fran Henry, and we managed to locate a janitor or two to move the piano up on the stage and then Margie Adam, after the adjournment, played and sang a song which she composed which is in the publication The Spirit of Houston called "We Shall Go Forth."

MA:   I know that song.

KC:   Then she taught it to the whole delegation and everybody sang it. It did make a good termination of the meeting.

00:53:04

MA:   What did happen to the 26th plank?

KC:    It forms the basis, it must have been passed in some form, for an organization now called the National Conference...We called it the Continuing Committee of the Houston Conference for awhile and then have subsequently changed its name to the National Women's Conference Committee, NWCC. That organization continues. It is the organization that a year ago in November had the 10th anniversary celebration of Houston which was held in Washington. A number of us from Wisconsin had been very instrumental in keeping it going.  It's kind of a limping organization but it has kept the National Plan of Action in front of a lot organization. We did an update of the National Plan a couple of years ago and published it.

MA:    Looking at what kinds of accomplishments had taken place?

KC:   That's right. Which things had been implemented and to what extent and which had not. Of course President Carter did name another advisory committee on women, or women's advisory committee which didn't have a long life. Bella was chair, this was after Houston, Bella chaired it for awhile and then had a falling out with Carter.  The committee which Bella headed put out a criticism, a very firm if not angry criticism of some budget proposals that Carter was making and they did that without clearing with Carter and had a press conference without in advance giving their recommendations to the President which I guess by protocol would have been the way to go. Carter fired Bella and then half of the committee resigned in protest of her firing and some of them stayed on. They did exist for awhile longer and put out one report and then kind of faded into the sunset.

But, this Continuing Committee of the Houston Conference has continued and has maintained that its justification for existence was based on that final action.  Also of course, the legislation that called for the Houston Conference to begin with, the National Congressional Act, had written into that that one of the functions of the National Conference in Houston was to make plans for a subsequent conference. So the National Women's Conference Committee of a few hundred women also gives that as some of its reason for being.

00:56:46

MA:   Do you think there will be another one at some point?

KC:   Well there won't be another one...I wouldn't want to see one to be called by the current administration, the Bush or the Reagan, because it would not be the same kind of progressive agenda at all.

MA:   You're saying that it would in a sense be a tool of the administration?

KC:   That's right.

00:57:25

MA:   A question that comes up in terms of the conference is who the, if you will, the movers and shakers were? Is there a way of looking at who had the most power, or did anyone?

KC:    At the Houston Conference?

MA:   Yes. We know that there were a lot of poor women who were delegates. We know that there were a lot of women of color because we've talked about that, yet there were a lot of notable women at the forefront and making speeches.

KC:   I don't know how I would answer that. I would say that certainly Bella Abzug was very...She was on the stage at all times. She was chair of the conference and no matter who else was at the podium or who was introducing another plank in the platform she was there and her presence was certainly felt.

MA:   Did delegates know her position on various planks?

KC:    I suppose so.

MA:   Probably she supported all of them?

KC:    Yes. There were I would say that a number of the members of the Commission, particularly those who were fairly well known, were influential.  I don't know about on the floor. There was just a lot of...Delegations had their own, each state had its own delegation and had their own sort of leadership people within the delegation.

MA:   Certainly. In the long run could that have been more important than the visibility of the national leaders on the stage do you think?

KC:    It certainly required the votes from the floor to carry things. A woman named Ann Sonia from Ohio chaired some of the sessions and was such an effective chair that she kind of zoomed in to prominence. In fact, she was invited to, or urged by a lot of people to be willing to accept the chair of that new committee that Carter did name afterwards. She gave it some thought and then decided that she had other fish to fry. I think that she had only been known predominantly to some Ohio people and I think in NOW. She was really remarkable. There were people who were especially beloved, Patty Wyatt who was a Black labor woman from Chicago and active in CLUW who was on the National Commission; Coretta Scott King...quite a few people that rang bells. A very lovely, very moving moment in the thing was when Margaret Mead who was there to do some workshop stuff on peace, it was her 75th or 80th birthday, I can't remember which, but it was a birthday and the whole group spontaneously sang Happy Birthday to her. That was nice.

MA:   I think this is important. If you can think of any other names just as you've been doing. The question as Gerta and I phrased it was, "Who do you feel were the real movers and shakers at the Houston Conference?" I think you are giving me a sense of that. On the one hand you are describing the nationally visible movers and shakers and you can't tell me who they were at the state level but clearly there had to be, there were people who were more influential at the state level than others certainly.

KC:    I think the people...There were people who came as I said being committed to "pro-plan", in other words they were going to make sure that none of those planks were voted down.

MA:   That's right. Was that the most extreme feminist position or the farthest left position?

KC:    Yes, if you consider any of this to the left, I don't know that I do. Asking for economic equity

MA:    Yes, I understand what you are saying.

KC:   It would be very hard to single out a particular segment, for me it would be very hard, because there were people in all of these delegations, with the exception of a few states, who came from the major women's organizations, AAUW, League of Women Voters, NOW, BPW, etc., and who had no question about how they were going to support the plan.

MA:   And of course they were going to try to influence other people to do so.

KC:   That's right. And then the union women were 100% with...I think that to give certain credit to certain categories is just very difficult to do.

MA:   You said that Gloria Steinem was there. I suppose that she was another very visible person?

KC:    Yes. She also was spending time with delegates and had her ear to the ground I think.

MA:   Was Mary Berry there?

KC:    I don't remember that she was there. It is possible that she...I could check a list here of the women from agencies who made those wonderful presentations. I know that I had not met Mary Berry until she came to Wisconsin a number of years after the Houston Conference to address our Women's Network. The fact that I hadn't met her doesn't mean that she wasn't there.

01:05:02

MA:   Why don't we move on to the organizational problems? We've actually covered them in the past, you've talked about the problems with hotel rooms, the conference site itself, the conspiracy fears that were running amuck, all the way to the Braille in the elevators – that's a wonderful story! Is there anything else that you've thought of in the interim?

KC:    No not really. I made mention of, because I read it in the transcript, I made mention earlier of one of our behind the stage, behind the scenes things was the matter of having food available. Actually the platform participants and all of the IWY Commission members and staff wanted food available backstage. Some of our staff people spent their time dashing out to delis or bakeries or whatever and we set up in one little room backstage a regular eatery.

MA:   And had to keep it stocked during the entire conference?

KC:    Yes. It was a real business. The facility itself didn't have adequate food and people didn't want to leave, we didn't want to call a lunch recess and take time from a very full schedule. There were I guess hot dog stands and coffee things but no real food.

MA:   Were there complaints about this?

KC:    Not too serious I guess, but it was a nuisance.

MA:   You had mentioned....Before I get on to this question, were there any other things?

KC:    No, I don't think so.

01:07:18	

MA:   You had mentioned that your job was behind the stage.  What were you doing behind the stage?

KC:   I was making sure that the next person who was either going to chair something or make a speech or whatever knew when it was time to go and when it was being escorted if they needed an escort and being available to either pass messages or run messages.

MA:   You were the stage manager then.

KC:   Yes, really. Once in awhile I would kind of sneak close so I could hear what was happening or see what things looked like. It was a very discontinuous view of the whole meeting.

MA:   Was it your task also to let people know when their time was up?

KC:   No that was handled by someone on stage.

MA:  Luckily.

KC:   We had parliamentarians sitting up there who were frequently called on to give opinions, etc., but that wasn't related to timing.

01:08:40

MA:   We've covered all of the questions about Houston--oh no we haven't, there is one more come to think of it.  You had talked about in your previous interview the follow-up after the Houston Conference, the year or nine months of work.

KC:   Actually, the Houston Conference was in November, the 19th through 21st or whatever the dates were, and our office closed shop on April 1st.

MA:  So it was about seven months.

KC:   Less than five months I think. Anyway, it was within that period of time that we had to put out our report of the conference, that wonderful document The Spirit of Houston and then close down the office actually. We made a presentation of the report to the President and then sent it off to the Congress. We had a big session at the White House to make that presentation. Just assembling stuff for the Archives, people came from the National Archives and getting the financial records together from Houston.  Sometimes there would be delays in getting payment to people in Houston and I can remember getting very irate telephone calls from the – oh, the off duty police who were guarding the place didn't get their pay very promptly and then there were a few small printing...Did I talk at all about the committee of Houston volunteers who were very much a part of getting the Houston thing off the ground?

MA:   No you haven't.

KC:   Well there was a very sizable committee in Houston who had in the first place found local printers and local artists, etc., to do part of getting stuff together for the conference and who did some cheerleading I guess in the community of Houston.  I suppose some of the 20,000 who came to look at the displays were locals. We had a poster contest which was inspired, conducted, and judged by these volunteers in the Houston community prior to the conference.  The winning poster was one called "Women on the Move" and had figures in different colors.  I don't know if you've ever seen that poster or not.

MA:   I don't think I have.

KC:   So there were a lot of things going right within the Houston community in preparation and before.  So bills got incurred locally and the whole process of, I never did know....I don't know why the payment, the person on our staff who was primarily responsible for financial things was someone lent to IWY by the State Department.  In fact the whole, there were several people responsible for, not for budgeting but for handling money and I don't know what the snafus were but I do know that it was very awkward and embarrassing. I lowered as many booms as I ever had in getting that finally taken care of.  Especially these small business that had fairly sizable bills couldn't wait and we'd get these both angry and plaintiff phone calls.

MA:   What a terrible thing that must have been. How did you get it resolved?

KC:    Just by badgering and standing over and saying "Do it now!" and "What's the delay?" I don't know if it was incompetence or if there were hoops to go through that I wasn't aware of but I think it was more incompetence than anything else.

MA:   So in a sense that was another organization problem then?

KC:   Right.

MA:   It sounds like related to that organizational problem though with the local volunteers in Houston that was certainly a positive outreach result of the conference. I wonder over the long run what has happened in Houston with the women? There must have been so many women who lived in Houston who were impacted by that conference.

KC:   Of course they've had a woman mayor for some time, have they not?

MA:  I didn't know about that.

KC:  They didn't at that time.

MA:  But they do now?

KC:  I don't know if there is any great cause and effect.

MA:   Anything else? Were you satisfied with the follow-up? I mean you certainly weren't satisfied after the Houston Conference. You weren't satisfied with the ability to pay bills, that's clear.

KC:   In fact a lot of the work in the office, the staff work in the office, was sort of anticlimactic and mopping up and a lot of the staff people were already having to look for other jobs and do resumes. In fact a couple of the staff people who were quite good at that had little luncheon sessions with the others to improve their preparation of their own resumes and to exchange ideas of where they might look because some of them had been there on the staff for three years and then suddenly had to be looking elsewhere.

MA:   How did you feel about it ending?

KC:    I guess I was happy enough to be getting back home and cut out the weekly trips.

MA:   Then did you go back on the staff at the University or on the faculty of the University full-time when you got back?

KC:    Oh yes. I had just been on leave.

01:16:15

MA:   Is there anything else about the conference, the Houston Conference that you would like to mention? Did it change your life at all? I guess that is something that I haven't directly asked you, what the long-term affect for you was?

KC:   I suppose I had a different...I know that for some people who were there as delegates it was a real change, it really affected some change. I think the whole experience...I can't separate out the Houston Conference from the whole several year experience and I'm sure that all of it gave me a broader look at how universal some of these situations and problems were and of course always meeting more and more terrific people. I certainly was astonished at the effectiveness of the ultraconservatives at taking over the state meetings.

MA:  That was a surprise?

KC:   Yes and an eye opener to me.

MA:   As a result of this did you question the organization of the women's movement in contrast to the more conservative elements, who seem to be so highly organized they came in blocks?  Do you feel that the progressive women's movement was as highly organized as the conservative women's movement?

KC:    No, nor do I think it should be because it is not a monolithic movement and it has many strands and that is its strength I believe. While when certain chips are down we are not as effective, we certainly aren't as effective as single issue people just because we are more democratic and more broadly based. I don't know where that leads me but

MA:   That's very interesting.

KC:    Also I don't think that a women's movement doesn't take orders from on high, now we will all do this...that wouldn't go very far.

01:19:04

MA:   Do you think if we were to have a Democratic President do you think another conference is in order and if so, why? What would be the new agenda today?

KC:    I don't know. That's a very good question. Whether it would be in order, I mean one also has to remember that since that Houston Conference and just before that there was Mexico City International meeting and since then there has been Copenhagen and Nairobi so one has to ask whether the global perspective isn't more in order than the...although it doesn't have to be either/or, it certainly doesn't.

MA:   But if you had to kind of think about this either/or and had the money for one conference would you do it for a national or international?
	
KC:   We of course had international representation at Houston. There were people there from a wide range of countries who were not there as delegates but were there as visitors and took part in some of the workshops that were going on outside of the plenary session.

MA:   Did they intend then to take this back then to their countries?

KC:    Yes. There were relationships that were continued then later on in Copenhagen and Nairobi.

MA:   You were in Copenhagen?

KC:   No. I wasn't at any of those three international meetings. I think there is no dearth of agenda items for a national conference and certainly there have been....There was a meeting in Iowa, Des Moines, last year of a meeting called by a coalition of some half a dozen organizations to develop what they called "The Women's Agenda", the U.S. Women's Agenda. The National Plan of Action has served as an agenda for a lot of organizations, not that it has to be in exactly that language but at least those are the areas that still need attention.  Many of them need more attention now than they did ten years ago or twelve years ago.

MA:   Interesting. Can you identify any areas that you think need more attention now than they did ten or twelve years ago?

KC:   We have far more people living in poverty. The epidemic of teenage pregnancies has emerged which was not a visible issue at that time. The welfare, AFDC and other welfare measures are more niggardly than they were then. The gaps between the rich and the poor have widened and continue to widen. The benefits that are given to the very rich in our taxation and other economic policies are horrendous. The progress that was being made toward economic equity and the whole comparable worth notion has gotten stalled.  The scary stuff for the Supreme Court. Reproductive rights, the strength of the right to lifers. All of those things. The situation for children in this country who are poor and poorer and uncared for. Our failure to provide for childcare. The whole drug situation. What is happening to minority youth in inner cities. Things that we are going to have to pay for in the future. Our educational system is not as great as we used to think it was. While we were concerned about moving more women into college and higher education, etc., and educational equity in the classroom, and sports for girls, etc. 

I think while we need to continue to be concerned about gender equity, we also need to be concerned about quality for everybody.  The amount of money that we have put into our educational system.... I have some simplistic proposals that I've had for many, many years

MA:   I think it's about time to get them on tape then!

KC:    I was just thinking about one of them and that is when we have so much unemployment that is regarded as acceptable, I don't regard any level of unemployment as acceptable but when we have unemployed people and so many unmet needs in our society if we would double and triple the ratio of teachers to kids in the classroom and the same with counselors and the same social workers and the same with recreational supervisors.  All of the areas where we are not serving people and we are not in part because we are giving all of the tax and economic benefits to the very rich so that more people are poor, anyway, we could take care of a lot of our unemployment by providing the kinds of useful services that are needed.  So yes, I think that in many respects women are worse off now, women and children and minorities, than we were at the time of Houston.

01:25:49

MA:   And you alluded, as you were talking about this, that it goes beyond being a woman's issue.

KC:   That's right.

MA:   So in terms of a women's agenda for social change are you suggesting that it would have to be somewhat different to encompass a broader spectrum than just women?  Do you think we can continue to advocate for women without including other oppressed groups at the same time?

KC:    I don't think that a lot of us have ever restricted our objectives as just improving the lot of women.  As my friend Conroy and I used to say to each other, "it's not our objective to shift the disadvantages from one group to another but to eliminate the disadvantages for everyone." As Bella Abzug says, the feminist movement is one that wants to create, has a vision of a society that is fair to everyone, and she sometimes adds that that includes men!  I think that this is the feminist agenda, the feminist vision. NOW was begun on behalf of women and minorities and the only prerequisite for becoming a member, in addition to $5, was that one did not discriminate on any of these issues and no one was welcome who did. The concern of all those who are oppressed, that is a concern.

01:27:50

MA:   Looking at our government system right now, looking at the Supreme Court specifically and the threat regarding Row vs. Wade, do you have any predictions about that and about what the ramifications of the current Supreme Court, which will be with us for some time, could be for women?

KC:    It could be very bad news. I don't think that it is a foregone conclusion that Row vs. Wade will be overturned but it certainly shouldn't come as any great surprise if it is. Of course Bush is just as bad as Reagan in his encouragement of this. I don't think either one of those men personally gives a damn what the right to choice is or isn't but they both have some political debts to pay. They were both voted for by extreme right wingers, fundamentalists so they are paying off their debt to those who voted for them in this way.

MA:  What should the strategy of the women's movement be do you think in regard to this or is it possible to even have one?

KC:    I don't know. I hear a lot of people whom I respect say that we need to be on the offensive and not the defensive but I don't know exactly how you go about doing that except to keep hammering away at civil rights and the right to privacy. It's my own belief that it is an absolute arrogation of government authority to meddle at all in the reproductive life of women, that the government has no business. I don't know how far one can go in having that human cry. I also believe very firmly in the separation of church and state and that people are entitled to their own religious views of when life begins and when it doesn't begin and what is a soul and what isn't a soul but they needn't inflict that on the rest of public policy, in fact I think that it is wrong to inflict it.  These are stands that I think need to be taken quite publicly and firmly and not be drawn into other debates....is this murder or isn't it. You're entitled to your religious views and I'm entitled to mine and when, according to the poles, 75% of the American people think that women have a right to make up their own minds about this whole thing then to have a handful of zealous, single issue people intimidate legislatures, and that is what they are doing, they intimidate them at the state level and they intimidate them in Congress by rallying their troops to force somebody out of office. We know that that happened in the 1984 Congressional, wasn't that the year - it was 84 or 86 - I think it was 84 when Birch Bayh was defeated.

MA:   And Church, Frank Church, a wonderful man.

KC:   That's right. I think there were four or five good people who were...I heard one of my favorite legislatures in Wisconsin say yesterday that until the right to choice people can intimidate state legislatures by saying "We insist on the right to choice for everybody, poor people as well as...and if you can't see your way clear to vote this way then maybe you will be..." The trouble is that we, the good guys, are not single issue people so we would be reluctant to vote someone out of office who is good on everything else.

MA:   What do you think about that strategy?

KC:   I don't know. It's worth thinking about. I suppose partly we try to persuade people to change their vote and that they are not going to be voted out of office if they...and that we will work very hard to make sure they are not.

MA:  You alluded to the fact earlier, I mean that we all know that the majority

01:33:12

End of Interview session 2

00:00:00

Third Interview Session (April 11, 1989), Tape 15

00:00:13

MA:	Kay, continuing from where we were a couple of weeks ago, you have already commented about your contributions to the women's movement but I'd like to hear you talk about it more as you look back, reflecting on what you feel your major contribution has been.

KC:	I never know how to respond to that. I think that probably, whether it's my contribution or the result of things that I participated in with others

MA:	It's hard to individualize this I realize.

KC:	I think there probably has been more impact and more result in Wisconsin than nationally. I imagine that at the national level, getting NOW off the ground and continuing to exist in those early years was probably a contribution. I think that the National Association of Commissions, whose organization I had a lot of responsibility for putting together for one year before we actually came into existence, and then serving as president for those first two years was important because it got that organization off in directions that were useful and relatively progressive and found ways of helping those State Commissions that were lagging or hadn't learned how to get a handle on what they could be doing.  I think that was very helpful.

I believe that the most, at least from where I sit today, it was actually in Wisconsin. The very fact that the Governor's Commission business was headquartered in my university office and that I had a great deal of flexibility in my university office enabled us to do an educational effort that really bore fruit.  We took ideas, got ideas and did what passed in my vocabulary as research, I suppose a real scholar wouldn't regard it as research, but had a sense of where people were in their thinking on what they needed to learn. I did a lot of this through speech making and going to conferences and meetings when I was invited to address groups and tailoring whatever it was, whatever my message was or series of messages were, to a given audience so that it could be heard, and could be received, and in many cases acted upon. I think, I may have already mentioned on one of these tapes that it came as a real pleasant surprise to me when I was doing the interviews for the American Government course, an interview with Arthur Schlesinger, when he made the statement that one of the responsibilities of a political leader is to know that politics is an educational process. I guess I never put that in that language but I understood that from the very beginning. If you want people to be actively participating in a particular direction then that requires a great deal of education. To educate, you have to know what is going on in the other person's head not just what is going on in your own head.

MA:	Right. Your educational role then in a sense and the research that you were doing was a part of that because you were trying to uncover exactly what the situation was in Wisconsin.

00:04:50

KC:	Then we had a hand in quite a few interesting projects; the one you know about, the E. B. Fred Fellowship; our Women in Apprenticeship project (1970-73) where I worked very closely with our state office of Apprenticeship and Training.  We made a film. We stole a title from the Ladies Home Journal and called the film "Never Underestimate the Power of a Woman". There I had the opportunity to work with a really great/good professional documentary film maker and had the experience of getting some ideas, these were ideas - I had ideas of what I wanted to transmit on a film to undermine some of the myths in those days that had to do with working women; working women only worked a few years in order to, they are not serious about their jobs, there are physical limitations to what they can do, they can't do strong beefy things and I wanted to smash those. I would get the ideas and this documentary film person would know how to translate those and then go out and do the filming. That one film, for example, we had requests all over the United States including Hawaii for copies of that film which then was used by many, many groups who were trying to do the same thing.  The Women in Apprenticeship project that we had which was really an effort to move women into non-traditional occupations and this seemed a route that was small enough to get a handle on and was in contact with unions, with vocational educators, with employers and with women themselves – potential workers. That project and the publications that came out, there were several publications from that, became a model then for the U.S. Labor Department and their Women's Bureau which subsequently, I don't know if they are still doing it but a few years ago they were still copying our program and doing it all around the country.

00:07:31

A lot of these individual projects, maybe ten to a dozen, Women in the Arts, two national conferences over a ten year period, I think had a lot of impact and a lot of utility. The little project that the National Advisory Council on Women's Educational Programs, when Jerry Simonson was the executive director there, asked me to first do a literature search on educational needs of rural women and girls and then to propose a project, which I did, which involved four regional conferences bringing together rural women and girls and the various educational and other kinds of services that should be paying attention, some of which were paying attention. Then I did a final publication for them with that title "Educational Needs of Rural Women and Girls" which was distributed again nationally. I at one point, this was in the middle 70's I guess that we did that over a several year period including all of the meetings, etc., at one point a few years after that was finished I was personally familiar with nine different funded projects across the country based on that one little publication and they used this as their basis. It's hard to say what but there certainly was this underlying educational component. I've never been a great marcher or street person, I'm inhibited in many ways and that's one of them, so whenever I participated in those things I've been very ill at ease and was delighted when they were over. I'm glad other people like to do it or are willing to do it whichever is the case. I have taken great pleasure in the kinds of things I have just described now, a little bit of writing, I've always had fun just writing speeches and I mean really fun, sometimes there is an anguish that goes into it but once I've decided that this is the thrust of what I want to do then it is pure pleasure.

MA:	Do you have in one spot all the speeches you've ever written?

KC:	No I don't, I have quite a few of them.  I think I probably sent a total, pretty well complete set to the Archives.

MA:	Oh good!

KC:	But I don't know that they have them in one place, I really don't know.  I have a nice little batch of them here.

MA:	It would be a nice collection to look at.

00:11:06

KC:	It is interesting. Once in a while when I would paw through some of them I found it very interesting to reread some of them that were done some time ago. I have a couple of audio tapes here of, one was a Meet the Press segment that was done probably in the late 60's and then others that are somewhat similar from a decade later or whatever. I find it fascinating the change of vocabulary.

MA:	Yes, just as we were talking about earlier.  Can you identify...

KC:	Not that it is more or less feminist vocabulary, I wasn't even thinking of that, but how gentle, I was not going to offend anybody. Maybe my own views were more gentle, I don't know.

00:12:06

MA:	That was what I was going to ask you. As you were looking through your speeches could you identify political changes that you went through as a result of the process?

KC:	I suppose I'd really have to look at some of them and give it some thought in order to make an intelligent response. I know there have been a lot of changes and I don't know how many of those reflect changes in me and how much in the outer world. I can remember making a presentation in Minneapolis, I don't know when but certainly no later than 1970, could even have been earlier than that, at some kind of a national meeting of farm agents or cooperatives – that was it some farm cooperatives national meeting – and a lot of the emphasis of my talk was to demonstrate that there is nothing freakish about women being in the workforce, that women have always worked and have always made an economic contribution. Then of course I could put that in terms of rural and farms which they understood and they knew before I said it. It was necessary in those days to make that point, not just to men in the cooperative movement but to a lot of others. There were some kind of fundamentals that had to be really dwelled on.  I once addressed a national meeting in Lake Tahoe of people in state labor departments who had something to do with vocational education and job preparation, job service, etc., and again there was just...they had to be spoken to at that level. I can remember saying you know the old stereotypes that women don`t have big muscles and can't do...I can remember making a statement that big muscles went out like high button shoes.  We have mechanized the heavy duty kinds of jobs and it isn't necessary...Just some of those fundamental things and some equally fundamental things when I would be invited to address state conferences of the school counselors and meet with really hostile men sitting there. I'd talk about how we short changed girls in junior and senior high school by urging them to take typing and possibly prepare to be a nurse or whatever. That was met with hostility. These people had been doing that for so many years that they thought that was a benefit to women, to urge them to take typing so they would have something to fall back on.

MA:	That's what I was told!

KC:	I don't know, have I changed or have they changed?

MA:	You're suggesting that that is no longer necessary?

KC:	No, I think it is not although there still are some pretty fundamental things that have to be....but not quite that basic.

00:16:11

MA:	As we've talked, we've spent a lot of time talking about your background and how it very comfortably led into your college education and your degree in Political Science. Would you elaborate a little more on your Midwestern background and what you think being from the Midwest and holding the values that you held, how important do you believe that has been for perhaps your ability to influence. In what areas do you see it as being helpful?

KC:	I think it is probably helpful in the Midwest. I have a British friend who lives in Canada who still can't stand Betty Friedan because Betty once was quoted as describing me as a "raw boned Midwesterner" and my British friend thought that was an insult. Of course I didn't think it was. I thought it was a fairly accurate description.  I'm also remembering that when I was at the Aspen Institute in Berlin, Alice Cook who is quite a well known labor economist, old enough to be my mother and as far as I know still going strong, three for four years ago she was at a Wingspread conference which I attended, she is just wonderful. She was at the Aspen Institute thing in Berlin and she and I met in the airport at Heathrow by accident a few days after the conference and she had a copy of a London newspaper which told about our doings at the Aspen Institute. The two British women who had been there, I didn't realize they were reporters, I thought they were there as participants but one of them at least had been there as a reporter and she had described me in equally unflattering terms using the word Midwestern in part to describe to me and using it really in a pejorative kind of way.

MA:	Do you recall what she said?

KC:	I don't recall. She was quoting something that I said but she put in this physical description of bony or what else went with it. There are places in the world where it is not greatly advantageous to be from the Midwest. In fact when my daughter Sarah went first to law school at Berkeley at Bolt Hall I remember the time that she and her friend, another law student, Bob, he had graduated from Princeton and was invited back to Princeton to participate in the wedding of one of his friends and invited Sarah to go along. They drove and got from California to Wisconsin and all of a sudden Sarah got great cold feet about going to this thing in Princeton and I asked why. It was because everyone at Berkeley regarded her as an "Agie" and referred to her that way and she thought she would be so out of place at an Eastern Princeton doings, and finally, in tears, she was in tears and was thinking about not going and she said "But I'm so homespun!" I tried to persuade her that she wasn't and that I thought she was quite sophisticated. I reminded her of her summer in the Bryn Mawr thing in Madrid and her travels in Europe and her year in Mexico and all of these and that she wasn't a total hick and it wasn't selling. So finally when she had this teary being so homespun I said "Sarah, homespun is beautiful and very hard to come by!" So then she was willing to go and did go and had a good time. 

I think one of the reasons I accepted my first teaching job at Purdue instead of Bryn Mawr was very much the same. I had felt that I wouldn't fit in. I had had experiences during World War II when I was in Washington for two years with the War Production Board, a lot of social gatherings with women and some men who had been Ivy League students and fresh out of college just like I was and I always felt a little bit less than....I would go to these events but I was always more comfortable when I would be with people who had gone to Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin. How much of that was just in my own head...I felt kind of like a hick when I came here to the University as a freshman at age sixteen. I felt very overgrown

MA:	Because you were tall?

KC:	I was tall. I wasn't exactly overweight but I wasn't scrawny either, I was just big. I had a very limited wardrobe, it was adequate, it was the best that we could do. I often felt, you know, like a small town, which I was. That didn't last forever but the first year or so I was there I had a lot of discomfort. I felt very much at home when I would go to the International Club and when I would go to progressive or left-wing things on the campus and I chaired half a dozen things practically my freshman year and was acceptable without any question. When I had to go to a fraternity or sorority event of sophisticated people and probably rich people I just felt kind of out of it. I once read, I'm remembering this now, in a Reader's Digest somewhere about my sophomore year I guess, one of those little footnotes that said "Most people would care less what other people are thinking about them if they knew how seldom they do." I probably screwed up the punch line but here I am walking down Langdon Street feeling ill at ease and probably nobody is watching or caring or thinking anything about it and I finally talked myself out of that.

MA:	Do you think though that this experience heightened your sensitivity regarding issues around poor people, people of color, or difference in that being from the Midwest was a little bit different within the larger scheme of things?

KC:	I know that I have always been and was in those days and have continued to be sensitive to people who are feeling out of it or who appear to be uncomfortable. I have a tendency at gatherings to gravitate towards such a person and to be very conscious of what it feels like. However, Midwest now is chic as you know. I read that all the time!

MA:	Oh yes, it is huh? That's good.

KC:	In fact Sarah sent me a couple of articles from California newspapers in which they use the expression "Midwest chic." Some film makers have come around Wisconsin and other places now to use that as a setting for movies.

MA:	Interesting! As I think of your work, the rural women's project and your continuing education project here dealing with returning women to school, do you feel that your background made it easier for you to communicate and to have a sense of trust?

KC:	Yes, I`m sure of it.  

00:25:47

I'm also remembering right now that I have not been universally popular. I very rarely get a direct...I've told you about the hate mail that once in a while

MA:	For you and David.

KC:	Yes and some of those were from people who were like right to lifers and religious fundamentalists but a number of my friends would tell me during years when I had fairly high visibility in some of these things that they would have to defend me with their bridge club or their garden club.  These members of the bridge club and the garden club have never confronted me but would apparently, behind my back, wonder what kind of a nut is she, etc. These tended to be full-time homemaker/bridge players or antique buyers so it didn't ever upset me.

MA:	More of the leisure class in a sense.

KC:	Exactly.

MA:	Very interesting.

00:27:15

MA:	Do you think that....? You have talked about your family in great detail too, that your family was open to many kinds of people and that throughout your life you saw diversity in your own home thanks to your mom and dad.  Do you want to elaborate on that at all in terms of how your family affected your political activity?

KC:	One thought that we probably covered this quite fully in our earlier tapes some time ago, but one thought that did occur to me...Yesterday I had an hour interview on WTSO radio and didn't really get into anything in any depth or length and I thought of this at the time but didn't actually get around to saying it. One of the things that I experienced and one of these subconscious, unconscious learnings from my birth family had to do with my attitude toward men. I lived and grew up with three brothers and a father who were very gentle, kind people and then married one who was gentle and kind. The kinds of hatred, or fear, or hostility, or whatever, or generalizations that "all men are" are something that I never accepted. I believe that women do not have a monopoly of the virtues. One has only to recall the women who have thrown stones at the buses in Detroit and who stood with the bastards in Alabama and Mississippi. At the same time I do not believe that all men are MCPs. In fact I think that this is one of the things that the gay and lesbian movement and openness has also helped people to understand.  In any case, I think in addition to having a nonsexist, a relatively nonsexist upbringing at least in my home, I also have this other view. I would almost venture to say that of my three children, the most sensitive one of all is the male.

MA:	I think that that is very significant but it has taken some of us a long time to get to the point that you began at.

00:30:20

As we look at the women's movement since 1960, the question that I have here is what you see as the insights that have come out of the movement and the other side of that would be the errors that have been made as you look back on the movement.  I'd like to begin with what you see as significant insights or I suppose a better way of putting that would be the educational advances that have been made as a result of the women's movement perhaps what you see as most significant.

KC:	I don`t know that I can put forth any kind of concept but in general I think there is a far greater what I like to call credibility of women, the generalized acceptance on the part first of all of women and secondly of men that women are not a breed apart or a lesser breed and that it is not just the exceptional woman who can make a decent public speech or handle an administrative job but that there is equivalent talent and ability, etc. I think that there is a fairly, not universal, but a fairly general acceptance.  I think that is almost the beginning point.  Then we see that women are moving whether you say with a great deal of speed or much too slowly into positions of authority and that we are still relatively powerless in foreign policy and in high finance and in certain other places that are necessary for women to be but that many, many of the barriers have gone down.  That is not to say that there is still not this glass ceiling or whatever and certainly many, many more women in poverty than anyone else.  

00:32:56

I think that all of this is to the good.  I think the whole development of Women's Studies and what eventually will be a revision of human knowledge in that ultimately. A wonderful book by Nancy Reeves which I may have talked about on previous tapes called Womankind was written I'll bet in the late 60s. It was a really a total calling for this complete revision, it's a brilliant book!  I hope I didn't give it away, I may have--I gave most of my books away when I moved out of the office but I hope I hung on to that one.

MA:	What do you see as being significant particularly about Women's Studies? You talk about the revision; does it have an impact on the women who are moving into higher positions? Is that where you are seeing the impact?  We've talked before about...You don`t believe that women hold any kind of a moral superiority

KC:	I said we don't have a monopoly on virtue.

MA:	Right. So the fact that women are moving into high positions may or may not be good. We could end up with a Margaret Thatcher.

KC:	Or Indira Gandhi or Golda Meir or Cory Acquino.

MA:	Do Women's Studies fit there somewhere?

KC:	I think it is all part and parcel of a movement. There is not a movement unless there are many, many different strands that come together in the same direction. I see the potential of Women's Studies as being a long-range potential so that as additional history books are written and additional psychology and literature and of course we see this just amazing outpouring of the fruits of women's art in all aspects of art. In some of the tougher places the outpouring is less and is slower--music composers for example.  Nevertheless there isn't an aspect of the arts in which we don't see just infinitely more women performing, producing, and being recognized. I was impressed, for example, a few weeks ago or a month or so ago in one of the publications that comes out of the Madison campus called Wisconsin Week that had a front page article by one of our outstanding world class scientists, Van Potter, who was talking about....I guess it was on the occasion of the new book he has just published....he was quoting Carol Gilligan, In Another Voice, and making the point that for the preservation of our planet all of the environmentalists, etc., had better acknowledge that women do speak and think in a different voice. To me that is another sign of progress. It's not just Daniel McGuire at Marquette, the theologian, who is so brilliant on this whole women's question. I see this kind of thing multiplying and happening long-range. I don't know what the connection, if there is a direct connection between the existence of Women's Studies and women in positions of authority. I think most people don't even know that since 1960 eleven nations have had a woman head of government. We've just ticked off five or six of the best known, but Portugal, Yugoslavia, as well as Eva Perone in Argentina, and now of course the wonderful feminist in Uruguay, and Iceland.

MA:	Iceland has a feminist parliament doesn't it?

KC:	I don`t know how feminist their parliament is, but the cabinet in Norway now is over one-third, close to one-half not only women but they are very progressive.

00:38:31

MA:	So you are seeing the influence of the various threads that you talked about.

KC:	Right. I see influences in organized religion foment. It must be getting somewhere when the Pope announces that feminism is the root of all evil!  

00:38:58

I think the global nature of the women's movement and the beginnings, just the trickles I suppose, of recognition of the universality of the status of women and the movement of women. We are beginning...I don't know if you've ever had a chance to see the study Sisterhood is Global compilation, I think suggests and opens up as Robin Morgan says, "the ignorance in the West of the rest of the world" is monumental. That's not true only of women and the women's movement, it is true of even more so of course of man.  

00:39:54

That I think is another of the strengths of the women's movement, the strength towards peace. Not only do women give leadership in identifying violence and opposing it as a method of settling differences at any level whether it is in the household or on a global scale.  The experiences that women from every continent had at the three International meetings, the UN meetings and the NGO forums that were simultaneous where Israeli and Arab women would meet together and discuss their situations without name calling, without rock throwing, sets a tone and sets a pace, not over night certainly, but ultimately.  It is not an accident that women have been leaders in the peace movement and in other caring...and really rational...

MA:	It sounds like you are saying that it is women who are building the bridges in a sense, the international bridges that need to be built to bring us together.

KC:	However, in order to really do this, women have to be in decision making positions in the establishment and to do that without being corrupted as some of these people we've already mentioned and without appearing to be even tougher than the men they are working with.

MA:	A difficult task!

KC:	Maybe when there is a mass of us in positions....

00:42:02

I continue to be appalled and frustrated by the slowness with which women are elected to congress in this country. There have been enormous strides at the state and local level in 15 and 20 years.

MA:	Why do you think the difficulty has existed?

KC:	I think it's probably that glass ceiling again. That's part of it and it has been very difficult to unseat somebody who is in office at the congressional level. The figures are up to 95% on incumbents who are re-elected even when they have opposition. There are many reasons for that, not that they are doing such a fantastic job but that they have such built-in opportunities to keep their name before their constituents with their newsletters that they have a budget for sending out and staffs to prepare them and funding to get back frequently and their names are well known. With 95% returns it is going to be largely men so that it is just driblets to begin with. But of course more women are getting known through their state legislature and city council and county board and even school boards which, when we first began counting, or at least when I had a hand at doing some counting, a very, very low percentage of women were on school boards.  Now certainly in this community and in this state and nationally the figures have just jumped so that by now it is not astonishing at all to have half of city councils and county boards being female. As the pipeline is filling up that may ultimately mean something.

MA:	Where do you see cost figuring into all of this? Isn't it becoming more and more expensive to run for national office?

KC:	It certainly is. Political parties have been loath to fund a perspective loser and a lot of women don't have money and a lot of women who support other women don't have enormous amounts of money.

00:45:16

MA:	Let's move now to the other side of the coin. Can you identify errors that you believe have been made by the women's movement since you've become involved over the past 30 - 40 years?

KC:	I suppose... I don't know if it is errors or failures but I think the very fact that we've had such reactionary people elected to national office and women vote in and vote in every bit as high a percentage as men, often higher, and yet are voting against our own best interests. Whether you point the finger at political parties or at the failure of the women's movement to do more to point out—

00:46:25

I think that one of the difficulties has been that not only the political caucus but other organizations, for example the Wisconsin Women's Network and Coalition of 65 Organizations, have all tried to be bipartisan or nonpartisan and bend over backward to endorse candidates in both parties, etc. While there have always been a few wonderful feminists who identify themselves as Republicans, the Republican party in this country at least since I don't know when, certainly since Nixon and eight years of Reagan and now we're starting in with Bush have been absolutely diametrically opposed to the interests of women.  The significant and primary issues on the women's agenda in this country have been 180 degrees different and the Republican Party has just been opposed to things that are of necessity for women. Then the Democrats have failed to take advantage of this and have tried to be all things to all people and I don't think that to start a women's party has any potential at all.  I don`t know.  To me this is one of the great failures, and whose failure it is is another question, but certainly the influence of women in the Democratic party has not been great and the Democratic party has not addressed itself to concerns not only of women but of working people but of minorities. You get a little lip service here and there but...at least at the national level.

MA:	Did Jesse Jackson's "rainbow coalition" inspire more hope?

KC:	I think so, yes. It did for me. I think if the Democrats ever want to capture the presidency it's only going to be by that. I don't know what the 1990s can do not to resurrect the old New Deal coalition but to move into this kind of a coalition. There is no evidence right now that the new leadership in the Democratic Party is going to be all that different.

MA:	That's very interesting Kay!

00:50:23

MA:	So when I ask you the next question, "Are we progressing fast enough?", you've actually answered that in a political sense. That's your primary frustration that we are not progressing fast enough in that area.

KC:	Then of course the women's movement hasn't done a great job of educating young people. Now some of that education is going to happen whether it's a conscious program of the women's movement or not because kids growing up in households which are less sexist and more enlightened and who see their mothers and well as their fathers doing things of interest will assume that that is the way the world is. But we have to remember at the same time that we have awful situations for a lot of these young people who are in a single parent household, who are exposed to drugs and violence and other things, the unemployment among young people in inner cities and particularly minority kids, they're not going to grow up to be non-sexist, liberated, feminists necessarily, they're more likely to be almost the opposite.  Of course once again I have to qualify whose failure and whose shortcomings...it's not the fault of the women's movement that all of these horrendous social problems are with us.

00:52:14

MA:	Can you comment on the women's movement and coalition building? How do you see the bridges the women's movement has made to other groups and other organizations? Is that something that has been done well, could be done more of, is it even a role of the women's movement?

KC:	When you say other groups you mean an integration of minority women?

MA:	Yes, and of addressing as broad a range of issues which deal with the health of our country. You mentioned the inner city, black, teenager who is suffering from poverty, drugs, all of the things that are happening and you were saying you can't really blame the women's movement beyond a certain point for not educating young people because so many other factors are impinging.

KC:	There is an awful lot of grass roots service provided by people who identify themselves as feminists or part of the women's movement. I'm thinking of crisis hotlines and shelters and rape crisis centers and education of a whole range of service people, police and hospitals and medical professionals and throughout the court system, and ongoing efforts to sensitize and educate so that the treatment of women who are victimized in a variety of ways is better. Those things have been done on a shoelace by women in communities whereas in the best of all possible worlds the need wouldn't be there but secondly there would be a community responsibility as there is in police and fire protection and clean streets and traffic control. But it has been individual volunteers at their own expense, their own self teaching at how to go about it and experimenting.  This is fairly universal, it's not just in Wisconsin or not just in Madison but it's across the country. Those I think are pluses. I don`t know to what extent the women's movement can do something about some of these other situations. I see that our governor has named a woman from Platteville who is a school teacher, Phy Ed teacher, to be coordinator of drug programs in Wisconsin. I thought that was an interesting kind of choice and might be a very good one.  Of course our former Secretary of Education is now the drug czar for the United States.

MA:	It's interesting that it's coming from Wisconsin. I hear what you're saying. In a sense you're saying that feminism has spread so broadly that we are everywhere on some level and that many of the things that are being done are being done by feminist women.

00:56:24

KC:	Then of course you look at the agenda of significant issues in state legislatures and they almost could have been written by the women's movement. Many of the issues of concern that impact primarily on women are the public policy questions that are being debated and voted on at local levels, state levels and to some extent certainly at the national level. The women in congress have managed to work together across party lines in giving leadership to the caucus on women`s issues and have been joined of necessity and thankfully by a great many men without whose votes we'd be whistling in the dark.

MA:	So in that respect, coalition building with men at the state political level has been successful, or fairly successful, at least in Wisconsin.

KC:	Yes, and in many other states. Since the failure of the Equal Rights Amendment to be ratified by the three more states that were needed, those states have turned out of office the worst offenders and have replaced them with others. There has been a real effort to keep state legislatures a little bit progressive. Of course we don't have enough allies in the Wisconsin legislature to override any vetoes of our governor who is a very anti-feminist person, anti-progressive in every way.

00:58:26

MA:	How do you feel about the ERA today?  Do you feel it should be reintroduced at this time, or as soon as it could be reintroduced, and an attempt at ratification made again?

KC:	I think that we need to be able to count the votes before we invest in the kind of all out effort such as the one that went on for ten years. Until we can, and I don't think we can count them right now, at least I base that on the national elections last November where there were maybe ten states that the Democrats carried. I don't know how that is reflected in the legislative votes but I'm sure the people who do the nose counting would know.

MA:	Mary Barry would agree with you.

KC:	Was she at the meeting in Iowa?

MA:	No, but she wrote a book "Why the ERA Failed" that I had to read and a portion of her analysis agrees with you that that must be a prerequisite. It's interesting that you see that from your perspective.

KC:	You don't persuade people, I think, who are dead set against it. You can chain yourself to the capitol steps as often as you want to and they're not going to change their vote.

01:00:13

MA:	Do you think that the leadership of the women's movement has been responsible for enlightening people about women's status? The question I have here is in what way has the leadership of the women's movement enlightened us about women's status today and you have answered that I think very, very well in terms of the state level. You have talked about the education that has gone on at the state level. Has it gone on at the higher level?

KC:	Oh I think so, I think so. Again, you have to I suppose identify who you are talking about when you talk about the "leadership" of the women's movement but I would say that there are now 40 or 50 national organizations, AAUW, BPW, League of Women Voters, YWCA, National Council of Negro Women and of Jewish Women and of B'nai B'rith Women and a whole snag of national organizations with very hefty constituencies across the country who are educating all day long on the issues and they are all...then they're all kinds of professional organizations which I didn't mention, nurses and dental technicians, etc., and theologians and people in all kinds of religious organizations who are – and I consider all of these as a part of the women's movement not just self identified feminist organizations – and they are educating constantly and looking at public policy and needs and all of that.

01:02:29

MA:	If you could influence feminists today, in terms of how they could best reach women who were like yourself as a young woman, those young women who perhaps don't want to go out and march, are planning to raise families, how would you suggest to the feminists to best reach this in a sense I suppose silent majority of perhaps feminists, perhaps not?

KC:	Reach them, I don't know.

MA:	Yes, to get the message. You can have time to think. We have plenty of time left on the second side of the tape and this is the last question. In a way I feel uncomfortable asking this, "How do you think they can best reach women who were like yourself as a young housewife?", well I know a lot about what you were like as a young housewife and I almost feel like you were not you were a very aware young housewife who took a little bit of time off in the midst of a very active and busy life. In a sense I think I would like to address the question to women who were a little less like yourself in terms of their awareness because there are a large group of women, these are the women who opposed the ERA, we had a great opposition to the ERA, perhaps that would be a way of phrasing it. We have many women who say "I'm not a feminist".

KC:	I'm not sure that...I don't foresee the day when there will not be opposition, and a very vocal opposition, to the things that...In fact the feminists or the women's movement, whichever vocabulary, is really struggling against the status quo. We are the ones who are wanting to change and our opposition then comes from those who want to defend the privilege, the enormous gaps between those who have and have not, the laws that have been structured to permit the rich to get richer and require that the poor to get poorer, you know this obscene debate that is going on now about raising minimum wage and the absolute insistence of the Republicans at the national and the state level that there be this so called "training wage" which is so far below the poverty level and which has so much potential for abuse and who needs six months of training in order to hand out hamburgers at Wendy's or McDonald's.  It is just an absolute non-caring, defend the corporations, defend big business, defend the rich....Anyway, I guess the point I was trying to make was that it is no surprise that there is enormous opposition to, particularly the fundamental struggles such as the Equal Rights Amendment and it wasn't just Phyllis Schlafly and the Eagle Forum and the women in pink dresses who opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.  They were the front people and the boys in the back room were smart enough to have women give leadership and make it look as though women themselves were quite divided.  It's progressives vs. conservatives who are divided and they're going to be divided no matter what their gender.  Maybe this is something we don't talk enough about and don't make clear enough.  Nobody can call herself a feminist and be opposed to raising the minimum wage in my definition and in my book.  It is no surprise and it is not ever going to be easy to make in roads and it has not been easy and yet I guess there is a great deal of truth in the statement that a lot of feminists make that the things we've done so far, since 1960 or thereabouts, have perhaps been the easy things and that the tough ones are still ahead.

MA:	Dealing with the gross inequities in this society.

KC:	Right.

MA:	So your definition of feminist is that person would have to have a vision of a different society beyond middle class women being able to move into positions of power.

KC:	Right. In fact I think that feminism is a vision of a different kind of society in which there is greater egalitarianism...where we don't have people who have no health care and have no health insurance and have no homes and who have no place other than the sidewalk. These things are intolerable! These are the kinds of changes that I think are part of it.  

01:08:53

Someone spoke to me recently (maybe it was you on an earlier tape, I don't think so though) asking....I remember who it was now....She was very concerned, this was a fairly enlightened feminist, very concerned that women she works within the battered women's effort and particularly in the Madison community, are so involved in the whole subject of domestic abuse and what to do about it and providing shelter and counseling and what to do about the men who beat up women that they don't see beyond that.  They don't see any connection between that and the rest of the feminist agenda.  That is their life, their volunteer life.  This person was asking, "How do you extend the horizons of committed people of good faith?"

MA:	To see the larger picture you're saying.

KC:	Yes, and it is an educational process. Sometimes I almost get back to basics, maybe because my most recent assignment has been the preparation of that American Government course, that a real understanding of a democratic society and what that really means and how that really functions and even understanding what the Constitution of the United States is all about. We have so many people, even people who do go to the polls and bother to vote who have no notion of how contrary it is to democratic principles for the secrecy and the covert activity and many of the things that the Oliver North trial is bringing to the floor right now, but people who still accept this and who...I heard interviews on public radio with three young men who had managed to get in to the trial one day to listen to it, but all college students, one in fact from the state of Washington and I don't know where the others, one from DC, all of whom thought Oliver North was a hero after they'd sat in on day they continued to think that.

MA:	So they clearly do not understand what democracy is.

KC:	And we are getting now what a lot of us knew or suspected all along that Reagan and Bush were in on the whole thing and had lied to the American people constantly saying they knew nothing of any of this. So when we have lying and secrecy and hideous things going on under the secret blankets.

01:12:11

MA:	So for you part of the feminist agenda has to address all of that. We're beyond the education about women being able to handle a job in the workforce as well as men and now to the more difficult things.

KC:	Some of the more difficult things are not that conceptualized, they are much more concrete. We've got to be providing care, good care for children and that is in itself a massive kind of thing. We've really not attended to making the workplace hospitable to families. That isn't all so secret; I wrote some of my better speeches ten-fifteen years ago on humanizing the workplace. I've forgotten the name of the woman who joined the N.O.W. legal defense – Kantor, Rosabeck Kantor – has written some marvelous stuff and details exactly what we could be doing so that families could have some balance in their lives and combine in and out of home and family and do it without the kinds of stress and to short change one place or the other. That's going to be a really tough one especially given the kind of status quo situations.

MA:	The kind of changes we make now require that we have a government in power that supports us.

KC:	This, I think, great suggestion that just went down to defeat in Wisconsin, this constitutional amendment that was defeated last week in the polls which was only the first step, had it passed it would have given the legislature the right to do some unequal property tax in an effort to give property tax relief which is certainly a necessary thing to do. Now the suggestion of the progressive forces in our state ultimately is that property taxes be assessed on the basis of one’s ability to pay. Just because you live in a house, well circumstances such as mine to be retired and have about one-third the income that I was accustomed to living on and yet my house assessment, I just got the information yesterday, has gone up another $5,000 without a penny going in...we paid $20,000 for this house and it is now assessed at $90,000 so my $2,600 property tax that I paid last December will now probably by about $3,000 on the next go around.

MA:	When you're on a fixed income that's ridiculous!

KC:	And that's why a lot of people are of course losing their homes. But who objects to that? The people who object to a progressive income tax to begin with because the very wealthy don't want to pay a bigger share. They already have all kinds of loopholes on business properties and other things. This shouldn't come as any surprise. All sorts of people voted against that constitutional amendment of course, many of whom were voting against their own self interest. That of course is again where education needs to come in so that people really understand what that means.

MA:	I think that those constitutional amendments are often not understood.

KC:	This one certainly was not and it was being obfuscated by people on both sides as a matter of fact. The wording was as usual....they've got some good English majors writing those things.

01:17:05

MA:	Well Kay, is there anything else you would like to say? Any other thoughts you would like to put down for posterity?

KC:	I do think that the influence of the whole cultural milieu, I don't know to whom to point the finger, Betty Friedan kind of pointed the finger at Ronald Reagan at least when Betty prepared the introduction to our book The Green Stubborn Bud but the whole yuppie mentality that success is measured in dollars and prestige and title and the flocking of young women as well as young men into getting MBAs and wanting to go someplace in the corporate world, it is a whole move which I think has affected a lot of other people besides those who are getting MBAs or law degrees or whatever and it has exacerbated what has probably always been the American way and the American dream and has...I think it keeps people who have that mentality and that kind of drive...I even have a little sense of it among people of good will. I think now of the television panel that I saw last night which I mentioned before we were taping of eight or ten people on a panel talking about the importance of women owning film studios and television stations and radio outlets and print media because it is in the ownership that you get to make decisions to say "yes" as well as "no" and to make decisions about hiring, etc. etc. I can't argue about that but also there was in that mentality even though there were quite a few feminists among them or people with feminist leanings sometimes amassing the money and getting the funding and being in the driver’s seat begins to smack very much of this success is measured in dollars and therefore I want the law to be such that I don't go bankrupt by upping the minimum wage and I don't want property taxes based on the ability to pay because that will take more out of my...It seems to me that there are some very difficult lines.  We certainly can account for the women who imitate men when they get into high places because that's the way the system is.  If they want to fit into the system then maybe they have to behave that way. I don't know.  I'm of two minds about all of this.

MA:	That is a paradox for the 90s.

KC:	Yes, I think it is. I think it is.  

01:20:46

I can remember having some roundtable informal discussions in Lowell Hall when we still had a place to eat together and when we were talking about the faculty raises and this little pittance that every once in a while would be....you know 2% raise in a good year, this would be our debate, should this little bit of money be across the board, and I always would point out that the lowest paid people would be getting the smallest increase because 2% of a smaller amount is a smaller amount, but sometimes I would be the lone voice at a table of eight or ten of us, most of the others were men, saying that I thought the lowest paid people should get the biggest chunk. People would look at me and say "Would you be willing to forgo?" and I would say "Of course I would!" How do you get equity if you aren't willing to forgo? They thought I was crazy, either crazy or lying, but they weren't' sure which!

MA:	That is at the heart of the issue, the protection of privilege.

KC:	Privilege such as it was. A lousy 2% which would turn out to be 1 1/2% anyway because the administrators would skim off for their own use.

MA:	Thank you very much Kay.

KC:	I don't mean to close on such a negative.

01:22:42

MA:	Can you think of something positive you want to close on?

KC:	Yes, I just think that there is progress. There are infinitely more people now who care and who proclaim that they care and who make a public statement.  I think the 600,000 people who marched for reproductive rights in Washington two days ago is certainly a hopeful sign. I don't think that it will have any effect necessarily on the Supreme Court. On the other hand, courts don't live in a vacuum, court judges and justices don't. I think another plus was the reelection of Shirley Abrahamson to our Supreme Court. There are lots of signs. We may also have had our last huge snowfall for the season, that's something to feel good about. I hope maybe I'll get off dead center one of these days and write something.

MA:	That would be very nice!

KC:	And maybe I won't, but we'll see.

MA:	Thank you.

KC:	Thank you.

01:24:05

End of Interview