UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
				ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #705
TONG, LILLIAN

TONG, Lillian (1949- )
Research associate, Psychology Department; Administrator, Center for Neuroscience; Faculty Associate, Wisconsin Institute for Science Education & Community Engagement
At UW: 1978-

Interviewed: 2004	
Interviewer: John Stevenson
Length: 4 hours, 17 minutes

Early years and education; Family history; Undergraduate and graduate education at the University of Michigan; Psychobiology; vision research; Christina Enroth-Cugell; Postdoc at UW psychology department; Peter Spear; China; academic staff; Center for Neuroscience; Australia; Center for Biology Education; Biology Interest Groups; STEM disciplines; Center for Integration of Research, Teaching, and Learning (CIRTL); Women in Science and Engineering Leadership Institute (WISELI); National Academies Summer Institutes; Asian-American studies program; Equity and Diversity Resource Center Advisory Committee; diversity; sexual harassment; CALS instructional improvement committee; Creating a Collaborative Learning Environment (CCLE); Teaching Academy; Career and family; childcare; daycare. 

NOTE:  THIS INTERVIEW WAS RESTRICTED UNTIL 2014.

First Interview Session (May 28, 2004): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.

00:00:11	Question: Birthplace and childhood? Answer: Lillian Tong (LT) was born in Rochester, New York in 1949. She attended a small, close-knit school in that city’s suburbs until attending a mostly white, upper-middle class high school that was recognized for its academic record. (She graduated in 1967.) LT remarked that she and her sister were the only Asian students, apart from occasional exchange students. 

00:02:14	[no question] LT commented that she excelled academically, winning various awards, but did not fit in socially. She recalled that a classmate’s mother had said she would never let her son date Tong. 

00:04:09	[no question] Tong spoke about her early interest in science and math, noting that her teachers – male and female – discouraged girls from pursuing advanced classes in those subjects. 

00:06:03	Question: Career ideas at that point? Answer: LT explained that she imagined herself becoming a teacher. She was an avid reader and wanted to help others to learn to read. But others told her that teaching was a “waste” of her talents. In the meantime, LT said, she wanted to attend college and major in biochemistry. Her high school biology teacher nurtured that interest.

00:08:08	Question: Family? Answer: Tong provided a brief overview of her family history. Her maternal grandfather came to the United States from China and her mother was born in the states. Tong’s mother (Nancy Lim) attended college, a very rare course for women of her generation, and majored in Physical Education. Later she returned to China and launched a Phys Ed program for girls, only to return when Japan invaded China. Tong’s father came to the United States with his mother to join her paternal grandfather. When his family returned to China, he remained in the U.S. and eventually attended UC-Berkeley, majoring in chemistry. A professor recognized his talent and encouraged him to stay for graduate school. His department eventually recommended him for a job at Kodak, based in Rochester, New York. 

00:12:58	[no question] Before leaving for Rochester, Tong frantically sought to marry, knowing there would be no other Chinese people there. He met and married Tong’s mother. As a scientist, he encouraged LT to pursue science because he believed discrimination to be less prevalent in scientific fields. But Tong remarked that her parents were concerned that her high academic performance might hurt her marriage prospects. 

00:14:51	[no question] LT discussed her parents’ emphasis on family and attitudes toward motherhood. People around her put a priority on women leaving work to raise their children. But her father insisted that his daughters attend college, believing high degrees the best way to counter prejudice. 

00:16:37	Question: Friends growing up? Answer: Tong remained friends with some of her earliest classmates. Most were high-achievers, like her. Follow-up: Expectations for women going to college (e.g. “MRS degree”)? Answer: College and marriage remained separate in her mind. 

00:19:25	Question: Did she stay in touch with high school teachers? Answer: She occasionally went back to visit her biology teacher, but did not rely on role models since her father was a scientist and the community had high expectations for young people. 

00:20:34	Question: Choice of University of Michigan? Answer: Tong explained that she learned about Cornell University from members of Rochester’s Chinese community. She loved the campus and wanted to attend, but applied to Michigan and others as a backup. Before Cornell even accepted her, she had decided on Michigan, in part because she had been accepted into an honors program. Follow-up: Was it the right decision? Answer: Yes.

00:24:22	Question: Funding for school? Answer: Her parents paid for college. LT said she had always thought her parents poor, but in fact they were saving up to pay for her college education. Michigan was significantly cheaper than Cornell. 

00:25:33	Question: Psychology as major? Answer: Tong struggled with inorganic chemistry and was not confident she would succeed in biochemistry. But she had taken and enjoyed psychology classes, also working in a lab that focused on learning and memory. Tong was immediately drawn to the area of sensory function. For her honors thesis, she researched visual illusions, spending her summers in Ann Arbor for the most part. 

00:30:48	Question: Mentors? Answer: LT identified Dan Weintraub as a mentor, describing the community of researchers and graduate students she joined at the Human Performance Center. She added that faculty members led classes in the Michigan honors program, unlike most ordinary science classes. That proximity allowed her to pursue lab research. Follow-up: Other formative events during her undergraduate career? Answer: Tong could not think of any particular events.  

00:34:02	Question: Degree of awareness in the women’s movements as an undergraduate? Answer: Tong remarked on her academic interest in gender difference, sharing a professor’s reflection that women looked for approval externally, whereas men did so internally. 

00:36:31	[no question] Tong described herself as experiencing an identity crisis that drew her more to minority movements, rather than the women’s movement. At Michigan, unlike in Rochester, the first thing peers saw in Tong was her race. She joined Chinese-American clubs and began to learn Chinese. LT then explained gendered stereotypes of Chinese women and how this related to her eventual decision to marry a Chinese man. She concluded by remarking that she was more conscious of her difference as a person of Chinese origins than as a woman. 

00:41:21	Question: Plans post- college? Answer: Tong met her husband when she was a sophomore. He was a graduate student. Although Princeton had courted her and four other programs had accepted her, she decided to pursue her PhD at Michigan because her boyfriend (and later husband) did not wish to have a long distance relationship. Michigan eventually offered her a fellowship and she was satisfied with the compromise. Of course, Tong pointed out, her husband left Michigan himself to pursue a post-doc position after he completed his PhD. She added humorously that she dated for a very short time before meeting her husband. 

00:46:22	Question: Graduate school at Michigan? Answer: She worked under a professor who had a triple appointment in Psychology, Electrical Engineering, and Ophthalmology. [Pause as tape turns over. Then a short segment where the interview is sped up.] 

00:48:00	[no question] Other students in Tong’s vision research lab came from different departments and approached the study of the brain in very different ways. She reflected on the value of this mixed training. The psychobiology group was particularly tight despite being scattered physically across the campus. Department meetings were open and students were frequently invited to potlucks at faculty members’ homes. 

00:51:15	[no question] LT noted that there were no female faculty in psychobiology, yet nearly half of graduate students were women. The department decided to invite high caliber female scientists as guest speakers. Tong commented that she could not relate to them because they were so assertive and aggressive, speculating that women potentially needed those qualities to succeed in those days. One exception was Christina Enroth-Cugell at Northwestern, who served as an important role model for her.

00:54:22	[no question] Tong remarked that she shied away from competition and considered leaving graduate school. At about the same time, her husband completed his PhD and stayed with his parents in Buffalo, NY for a time. While apart, they sent each other cassette tapes because they could not afford long phone calls. Afterwards, he went to Johns Hopkins for a post-doc position. Commuting between Baltimore and Ann Arbor was difficult, but Tong was determined to finish her degree, especially to disprove a faculty member who feared she would quit after getting married. She explained that she did not want to confirm certain expectations of women students.

00:59:31	[no question] When Tong told her advisor she might quit, he recommended she talk with a psychologist. She decided to stay, and only later realized that most PhDs feel similar discouragement. LT briefly described facing a research obstacle that was partly responsible for that discouragement. Her committee approved her project despite gaps in the research. She earned her degree in 1977.

01:02:02	[no question] LT also described pressure from her husband to complete her degree before he applied for jobs. She reflected that she missed out on the sense of community at Michigan due to commuting to Baltimore. Luckily, some faculty members at Johns Hopkins made an effort to include her there.  

01:03:53	[no question] The interviewer brought up Tong’s earlier comment about the fearsome quality of top tier women in science, asking her to explain what so bothered her about them. Tong said she simply could not see herself in them. She wanted to be competent and logical in her research, but disliked being placed on the defensive. Many of her role models were male. 

01:08:17	Question: Climate for women in science at Michigan? Answer: She began by saying that women “put up with” many things considered inappropriate today. In some instances, she realized that peers regarded her as a woman (and a potential sexual conquest) rather than a colleague. At the time, she did not consciously consider how it affected the research climate. However Tong referred to thorny issues regarding dating amongst members of a laboratory or group. 

01:13:26	Question: Climate for minorities in science? Answer: Tong commented that it was hard for her to separate out parts of her identity. There were very few minorities in science then. 

01:14:19	Question: Changes in the climate for women over time at Michigan? Answer: LT remarked that when she arrived at Ann Arbor, women were wearing blue jeans (rather than skirts, as they did at Michigan State). Many people associated braininess in women with unattractiveness. Tong recalled that she embarrassingly won her dorm’s so-called “purity test” as a freshman. [Brief pause in tape.]

01:19:00	Question: Job search and position at UW-Madison? Answer: Her husband was looking for faculty positions, and she looked for post-doc positions at the same institutions. He received an offer from UW’s Department of Neurophysiology. Tong visited the campus and interviewed with three faculty members doing work related to her research, electing to work with Peter Spear in Psychology. A two-year NIH fellowship funded her position. 

01:22:25	[no question] After Tong arrived in July 1977, she struggled to familiarize herself with Spear’s area of research. (As a result, she never published her own thesis.) At the same time, she also worked as a post-doc for John Harding in Neuroanatomy. Both research topics were interesting, but splitting her time was problematic. She speculated on how colleagues would have seen this problem were she a man. 

01:26:07	[no question] At the end of her fellowship, she joined the academic staff, becoming a research associate and continuing to work in Spear’s lab. Tong described the lab work in greater detail, detailing her responsibilities, which included training new post-docs. She commented on her eventual decision to leave, saying it felt as if other people were moving on to better opportunities while she still performed “clean up.” Nevertheless, most lab work remained rewarding.

01:32:11	[no question] LT decided to leave after about ten years. She commented on how lab leaders would receive full credit for research, whereas other members of the group did not receive recognition for their work. Tong pinpointed a 1980 trip to China as the first time she truly felt professional. She had an opportunity to speak about her research and eventually published a chapter in a book that resulted from the event. By contrast, she did not feel the same professional rewards on her own campus. She and the interviewer briefly discussed the differences between faculty and academic staff. Tong also described an informal “support group” of women who met for lunch to commiserate. Many, like her, had not chosen to come to Madison.

01:36:55	[no question] LT touched on the isolation of working in a lab. Apart from a weekly “Vision Lunch,” she saw the same people every day. In addition, she found herself saddled with managing personalities within the lab, acting as a lab “mother.” 

01:42:12	[no question] After ten years, Tong began considering her next career move, but saw little opportunity within UW-Madison. It took three years of workshops and counseling to realize that she could successfully apply her skills elsewhere. Here, LT also noted that she disliked writing for the lab, and that her work there cut into her time as a parent. 

01:45:00	[no question] Tong finally left the lab to work for the new Center for Neuroscience working in an administrative capacity. She described her job duties in this position, which included financial planning, committee work, and some mundane tasks. Unfortunately, her time was no more flexible than it had been before. Beyond that, she did not think herself a natural administrator. She liked the job, but ultimately quit when her husband decided to go on sabbatical in Australia. Later, an offer to do a similar job at the Primate Center convinced Tong that she had earned a successful reputation from her previous position. Here, she reflected on the fact that she alone was responsible for her workaholic tendencies.

01:54:03	[no question] While in Australia, she did not pursue work in science, although she continued working on papers for publication from her previous lab work. She and the interviewer discussed academics’ tendency not to view their work in terms of hours. Then Tong returned to the subject of Australia, where she enrolled in courses on molecular biology. Here, she briefly touched on her extracurricular activities. 

01:59:03	[no question] Before returning to Madison, LT resolved not to resume a full-time job. However her feeling of isolation prompted her to accept an instructional position, despite having done little teaching. She detailed her prior experiences in instruction at Michigan, which included designing a course. Later, while working in the lab and seeing the influence of PETA on perceptions of animal research, she became interested in designing a program to educate students on the value of animal research.

02:06:06	Question: Comparison of Wisconsin and Michigan in the area of teaching? Answer: Tong first noted that teaching at Michigan likely changed after a TA union formed. She contrasted the class sizes at Michigan (small) with those at Wisconsin (large lectures). 

02:07:33	Question: Circumstances under which she accepted new job? Answer: Tong was interested in working half-time. The Center for Biology Education needed someone to work for departments across colleges. It struggled to convince faculty members to apply for grants aimed at reshaping undergraduate instruction. LT started at half-time and eventually worked three-quarters time. She began by consulting with faculty members about instructional materials and their implementation. 

02:12:09	Question: What was her job like at first? Answer: Tong identified faculty interest in multimedia instructional materials. She then set out to locate those materials and connect faculty with the means of showing them in class. Later she developed a grant to establish a more permanent means for faculty to borrow equipment at no cost, eventually funding a position for a technology consultant as well. 

02:16:00	[no question] Tong emphasized how, early on, she listened to faculty needs, then attempted to lower the barriers to fulfilling those needs. In addition to the above project, she helped coordinate the creation of a database that listed all research projects taking place in the biological sciences. Later, her position evolved and she worked less directly with technology, but remained focused on interdisciplinary conversations about pedagogy. 

02:21:45	[no question] LT detailed a recent NSF grant to develop BIGs (Biology interest groups), e.g. freshmen taking clusters of science coursework together. 

02:23:23	Question: Current work? Answer: Tong detailed a new project designed to integrate material students learn across different courses by linking those courses. Biology, chemistry, and calculus faculty would work together to develop case-based or problem-based learning that required critical thinking and teamwork. LT stressed the demands such a program placed on faculty to rethink methods of instruction. She described a database set up for faculty to pool their teaching strategies. She briefly mentioned positive feedback from Math and Chemistry faculty. 

02:33:20	[no question] Tong traced the evolution of a grant into a two year project, then stressed the need to institutionalize interdisciplinary teaching initiatives like this one. Then she described another grant project with which she was involved, focusing on graduate student teaching in the STEM disciplines. 

02:36:18	[no question] LT detailed her role as academic staff for Women in Science and Engineering Leadership Institute (WISELI). Her involvement in this group stemmed in part from her personal experiences working in a lab.

02:38:10	[no question] Then she discussed her recent involvement in the National Academies Summer Institutes, modeled after the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory’s immersion approach to research. The project was the brainchild of Millard Susman. The goal of this project and others is to elevate the profile of teaching. 
 
02:44:24	End of Interview Session

Second Interview Session (June 30, 2004): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.

00:00:08	Question: University service, apart from WISELI? Answer: Tong spoke about her work with the Asian-American studies program, for which she served on a faculty advisory committee after returning from Australia. Her work was far-removed from her own field of science. It entailed involvement in hires, contact with Asian student groups, and mentoring Chancellor’s Scholars. Her interest in diversity also prompted her to tutor Hmong students. 

00:05:03	Question: How have these groups and their membership changed over the years? Answer: Tong commented that the number of Southeast Asian students increased dramatically. 

00:06:38	[no question] Tong described the work she performed for Center for Integration of Research, Teaching, and Learning (CIRTL) as part of her job. She was involved with writing the grant that funded the project, participated in developing and implementing instructional materials, and served on its committee for diversity. 

00:08:17	Question: View on diversity? Answer: LT discussed some problems she identified while serving as an advisor for a student group for minority students in the biological sciences. She described some problems those students faced in the classroom from both instructors and fellow students, and later commented that gender posed similar problems felt by minorities and international students.  

00:12:00	[no question] Tong touched on her participation in the Equity & Diversity Resource Center Advisory Committee, which aimed at coordinating various campus initiatives to enhance diversity. The Committee oversaw each unit’s committee on Equity & Diversity. When asked, she speculated as to how the committee changed over the course of her six year tenure. Over time, emphasis on diversity shifted away from legal issues to questions of campus climate.

00:19:08	Question: Greater genuine interest in improving campus climate? Answer: LT commented on how people need to confront the underlying rationale of improving campus climate. She cited a brochure on sexual harassment that listed “what not to do,” but also laid out why sexual harassment creates a poor work environment for all people. She related these issues to her own experience, remarking that she never identified herself “as an Asian woman scientist.” 

00:22:30	[no question] LT mentioned her involvement in a grant project to fund book clubs on diversity and ethnicity. She briefly described the books her group read and the conversations they provoked. 

00:24:46	[no question] LT moved on to discuss partnerships between the Center for Biology Education (CBE) and other groups, particularly the CALS instructional improvement committee. 

00:28:13	[no question] Although defunct by the time of interview, Creating a Collaborative Learning Environment (CCLE) provided a cross-disciplinary venue to investigate how faculty learn, rather than teach. She mentioned how new teaching methods sometimes resulted in poorer student evaluations in the immediate term, tempting faculty to stick to older methods of instruction. 

00:33:03	[no question] Tong was enthusiastic about the aim of the Teaching Academy to raise the profile of teaching, but was hesitant to join it herself. A colleague convinced her otherwise. She remained involved in its Summer Institute, which helped faculty develop new courses. She distinguished this institute from the National Academy summer program. Tong outlined her work on the local and national levels for that program.

00:42:17	Question: Comments on the evolution of her career from its narrow focus within scientific research to its more expansive focus on teaching? Answer: Tong reminded the interviewer that her interests in psychology were broad from the beginning. But she became less satisfied as her research questions demanded greater specialization. LT also enjoyed working with people, which working in a lab did not afford. Her more recent work better reflected her long term goals. 

00:47:28	Question: Changes in climate for women in science over 26 years on campus? Answer: LT began by mentioning greater institutional support for women, citing spousal hires as an example. She observed more hires and greater acceptance of women faculty who also opted to start families. Women in science can “lead a more normal life.” But many women still experience different (if unintentionally so) treatment. Furthermore, women often think less of themselves when they opt for academic staff positions. LT reflected on her own experience in that regard, but knew she made important contributions as an academic staff member. 

00:52:09	Question: Gender/sexual harassment? Answer: LT explained changing attitudes toward men in positions of authority commenting on women’s looks. As a graduate student, she simply “put up with” this type of behavior in the lab. Follow-up: Why have attitudes changed? Answer: Tong speculated that increasing numbers of women resulted in changing attitudes, but she also nodded to policy changes on behalf of women in WISELI. She referred to “gender schemas” or unconscious standards of how people should act. For example, Asian women are expected to be agreeable and polite. 

00:58:03	[no question] Tong and the interview compared Asian (international) students to Asian-American students, who did not seek each other out as much as the former group. LT explained that she does not speak Chinese because her parents did not want her to speak English with an accent. Her husband is Chinese, so she has more connections to Asians than most Asian-Americans. 

01:02:14	Question: WISELI? Answer: LT described WISELI, a group formed to advance women in science. She mentioned several studies, including workplace climate surveys, WISELI undertook to document women’s place in the field. The group also launched workshops aimed at improving workplace climate. LT explained how she came to be involved, and how the group incorporated academic staff. Then she outlined her participation in a project designed to celebrate successful women in science by inviting guest speakers, particularly to departments with few women. 

01:08:41	Question: Lessons from work with WISELI? Answer: Tong cited the broad range of research on women conducted on campus and noted what she had learned from WISELI studies (ex. speech patterns that set women apart). Most importantly, the group put her in contact with many other women on campus. Follow-up: WISELI’s impact? Answer: LT argued that it raised awareness of problems on campus. Follow-up: What next? Answer: She expressed hope that the group would find funding after its NSF funds ran out. 

01:11:24	Question: Career and family? Answer: Tong described the desire among women in her generation to be “super women” who do the majority of household tasks but also hold themselves to impossibly high standards at work. Guilt, she explained, is inevitable. In retrospect, she wished she had spent more time with her family. 

01:14:44	[no question] After a brief break, Tong explained how the two-day experiment calendar she followed in the lab made it impossible for both her and her husband to be at home at night during the week. Then she described how they attempted to juggle childcare while attending meetings and conferences. Her role as a wife took backseat to her career and her role as a mother. 

01:17:45	Question: University efforts to help balance work and home lives? Answer: Tong emphasized childcare. When her children were young, they attended daycare at the Waisman Center, but she and her husband struggled to find a new place when it closed. She cited proximity to the workplace, after-school activities for older children, and summertime daycare as key problem areas. 

01:21:13	Question: Family responsibilities affecting male and female faculty members differently? Answer: Yes. Men are more able to attend early morning and after-hours meetings. 

01:22:41	Question: Final comments? Answer: Tong revisited her answer to an earlier question about steps the University can take to help women on campus. She speculated about ways of rewarding academic staff who have committed themselves to the University. Such initiatives would make people like her feel less “invisible.”

01:25:43	End of Interview Session

End of Oral History #705