UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1028
MARTIN, HOWARD

MARTIN, Howard (1941- )
as Graduate Student in German; Professor of German at UW-Extension; Chair, Department of Liberal Studies, UW-Extension; Dean, Division of University Outreach, UW-Madison; Dean, Division of Continuing Studies, UW-Madison.
At UW:	 1965-2010

Interviewed: 	2009 (2 sessions)	
Interviewer: 	Robert Lange
Index by: 	Greg Bond
Length: 	3 hours, 44 minutes, 18 seconds

Abstract: In his two interviews with Bob Lange conducted in 2009, Howard Martin discussed his long career as a professor and Dean at the University of Wisconsin-Extension and at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Martin talked about teaching German at the UW-Extension, and he described the process that led to the re-integration of the UW-Extension with the UW-Madison in the early 1980s. He then discussed his experiences as the Dean of University Outreach on the UW-Madison campus and as the Dean of the reorganized Division of Continuing Studies, which included oversight of the UW Summer Session. He explained the operation of the UW Summer Session and discussed the education of non-traditional students on the UW-Madison campus. In addition, Martin described his childhood in England, his education at the University of Durham, his college year abroad at DePauw University, his marriage, and his experiences as a graduate student at UW-Madison during the 1960s

Keywords: University of Wisconsin-Madison; University of Wisconsin-Extension; University of Wisconsin Division of University Outreach; University of Wisconsin Division of Continuing Studies; University of Wisconsin Summer Session; University of Wisconsin German Department; Distance Education; Continuing Education; Non-traditional Students; PAGE (Presidents’ Advisory Group on Extension); University of Durham (England): DePauw University.

First Interview Session (January 12, 2009): Digital File
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:26	Question: Please state your birth date and birthplace and describe your parents? Answer:  Howard Martin (HM) was born on May 26, 1941 in Doncaster, South Yorkshire England. His parents were Clifford and Ellen (Nellie) Martin. His father worked in a large railway plant, manufacturing locomotives, and his mother was a stay-at-home mom until later in life.  HM had three sibling - a brother two years younger, a sister, four years younger, and another sister ten years younger.

00:02:34	Question: Talk about your early education? Answer: HM’s first attended the Balby Infant School then the Balby Junior School. After taking the routine placement exam when he was 11 years old, he attended a technical grammar school, at which the emphasis was on technical and science disciplines rather than the more classical education at Grammar Schools

00:05:54	Question: Was the intellectual life valued in your home? Answer: HM thought this was true.  He recalled that school was very important to his parents, because they had not had the opportunity for higher education. In response to a question, HM remembered that he thought he was fairly smart as a youngster because of his performance on the placement exam.

00:08:29	Question: Did you enjoy school learning in high school? Answer: HM recalled liking learning, and he talked about his favorite subjects like German, English, and History.  He said that the more technical subjects like metalworking and mechanics were not his strong suit. When he was about 15, he received special tutoring in Latin to give him the possibility of pursuing the humanities at the collegiate level.

00:12:14	Question: Where do you think your interest in German language came from? Answer: German was the foreign language offered in Technical High Schools at the time, and HM recalled that the UK was attempting to rebuild a relationship with Germany during the 1950s, and he participated in an exchange program during which he got to study at a school in the Ruhr District.

00:16:09	Question: How old where you when you entered University? Answer: HM was almost 20 when he started his university study.  He had finished high school at 19, but he still needed to take another advanced-level examination to have enough credit to enter his preferred school, the University of Durham.  In response to a question, HM explained that his credentials had not been good enough to enroll at the Oxbridge schools. He thought that Durham was as close as he could get to the quality and collegiate structure of Oxford or Cambridge, and he also recalled that one of the colleges at Durham had recruited him for rugby.  He remembered that he started in 1961 and lived on campus. In response to a question, HM noted that his major areas of study were German and Modern History.

00:20:30	Question: Do you remember any significant intellectual figures? Answer: HM noted that although he lived at a particular college, his professors were scattered across the university.  He remembered two of his significant influences were the Principal of Bede College and George Smith, the Vice Principal, who was the “moral tutor” and was responsible for looking after the non-academic life of students.  He only remembered Professor William Wallace, who taught Russian and Eastern European History, as an important intellectual influence from his college years.

00:22:36	Question: You were at DePauw University for a year? Answer: HM talked about his wanderlust throughout the years and explained that Durham began an exchange program that allowed students to study at either DePauw or Indiana University. The scholarship covered room and board for the year but no traveling or living expenses, and when he was chosen for the scholarship, he opted to study at DePauw, because it was a new type of institution for him. He recalled coming to the U.S. beforehand and earning some money working at a summer camp in Vermont. In response to a question, he recalled being excited about visiting the United States. In the end, he did not have the opportunity to travel as much as he had hoped, because he had to get a job working in a pizza parlor in Greencastle.

00:27:37	Question: What was that first year like for you? Answer: HM thought it had been a very good experience. He took Russian and American History classes, and he noted that his history professor at DePauw, Professor Norman Risjord, moved to UW-Madison soon after.  He also got the opportunity to tutor his fellow students in German, which was how he first got the idea of going to graduate school. He also talked about meeting his future wife Cathy in Vermont, and maintaining a relationship with her when she lived in Minnesota during the year.  After he finished at DePauw he moved to the twin cities to work in a factory and got married, after which they moved back to the U.K.

00:31:30	Question: You were at DePauw and in the Twin Cities? Answer: HM’s fiancée lived in the twin cities and was from the small town of Prescott, Wisconsin.  In response to a question, HM remembered that he got along well with her parents, and he talked about returning to England to finish his degree and to apply for graduate school in the United States. He recalled being accepted by Berkeley, Minnesota, and Wisconsin.  He chose Wisconsin, because it seemed to be the best geographical fit and the German Department had the best reputation of the three.  HM talked about arriving in Madison and his early teaching assignments that included grading correspondence courses in German offered by the UW-Extension.

00:36:58	Question: What was your impression of UW in the mid-1960s? Answer: HM thought that the German Department was very highly ranked, and he recalled finding life very pleasant. He talked about the community of graduate students who lived at Eagle Heights.

00:38:16 	Question: Did the developing anti-war movement affect you? Answer: HM remembered polarization in the German Department about the war and about the formation of the TAA.  He recalled being anti-war but also being busy with teaching and two children.

00:40:20:	Question: Is it becoming clear that your future will be in the United States? Answer: HM quickly gave up the idea of returning to the UK, because his children were born here and his siblings had all left England.  They were happy in Wisconsin and liked Madison. In response to a question, HM observed that he enjoyed visiting the UK but that he preferred his style of life in Wisconsin.

00:44:07	Question: How did you decided to go for the Ph.D.? Answer: HM was particularly interested in studying the older aspects of the German language and his classes on that topic – especially the one taught by “Smokey” Seifert – “lit up his mind.” He also remembered English classes taught by Fred Cassidy and Dick Ringler sparking a interest in philology, and he was generally encouraged by his German professors to continue his studies. In response to a question, he praised the quality of his professors at UW.

00:48:06	Question: Who were your advisors? Answer: HM’s advisors were Lester Seifert from German and Dick Ringler from Scandinavian Studies. He recalled that his interests lay in the older parts of both languages, and he decided to study medieval German manuscripts and their versions in Old Norse Icelandic.  He worked with the Royal Library of Copenhagen to come up with a research topic.

00:51:16	 No question: In 1968, HM received an opportunity to teach three-quarters time for the University Extension German program, which had close ties to the German Department at UW-Madison. He also continued teaching reading knowledge classes to graduate students, and he remembered being quite busy.

00:54:52	Question: What happened after you received your Ph.D. in 1971? Answer: HM remembered looking for a job and preparing to leave Madison. He recalled that the job market was very tight and that he was not having much luck when the UW-Extension offered him a job as an Assistant Professor of German.  Despite the “minimal salary,” HM took the job and recalled doing a lot of teaching in the evening.

00:57:31	Question: You were employed by UW-Extension and not the UW-Madison Department of German?  Answer: HM said that that was correct and explained that Extension was run separately. He observed that many of the faculty at UW-Extension and the UW-Colleges had received their Ph.D.’s from the UW, and many departments in Madison were reluctant to create closer ties because they were hesitant to hire their own Ph.D.’s. In response to a question, HM recalled that he had a good relationship with the UW-Madison German Department.

01:01:36	Question: You were an Assistant Professor of German from 1971-1976? Answer: HM said that this was correct.  He explained that he tried to do research, as well, and had some support from the Graduate School to study in Iceland, but he remembered that teaching took up most of his time.

01:03:54	Question: You were at Extension when the merger and the creation of the UW System took place? Answer: HM said that when the merger happened, he received the new responsibility of overseeing all the Extension classes in German and some related courses in Scandinavian Studies. He explained that part of his job was traveling the state and working on behalf of Extension at the smaller campuses. After the merger, UW Extension operated like one of the campuses with its own chancellor and administration.

01:05:56	Question: Was the merger and the creation of the US System a good development on balance? Answer: HM thought that it was not a good development, because the UW-Madison has a broader educational mission than the other campuses in the system.  He felt that, as a research institution, the scope of the UW-Madison was different from the other campuses.

01:08:38	Question: You were promoted to Associate Professor and received tenure in 1976? Answer: HM said that this was correct, and he recalled being worried, because, at the time, many people were being let go due to budget constraints.

01:10:40	Question: Why do you think your received tenure and some other people did not? Answer: HM did not really know, but he observed that the “fit” with the department has to be right for people to successfully get tenure. In response to a question, he briefly explained the tenure process.

01:12:27	Question: You are still primarily teaching or are you beginning your work in administration? Answer: HM recalled becoming involved with a lot of committee work, including working as the Chair of the Faculty Governance Committee.  He remembered working with System lawyers and flying all around the state. In 1979-80, the Regents asked him to chair a committee to investigate whether or not Extension’s County Agents should be eligible for tenure.  He was also involved with committees studying the question of re-integrating UW-Extension back into the Madison campus.

01:17:11	Question: How did you get involved with so much committee work? Answer: HM said that he never sought out administrative positions but that he does not have any qualms about being ambitious. He talked about applying unsuccessfully for an Associate Dean’s position. In response to a question, he thought he did a good job, but he observed that the University “is not very good at praising people.”

01:20:46	Question: In the late 1970s and early 1980s, were you still primarily teaching? Answer: HM recalled that, by 1983, he had become Chair of the Extension Department of Liberal Studies, which encompassed social sciences, humanities, and language subjects, and he was doing some teaching. In the early 1980s, he also began working half time for UW-Extension Chancellor Patrick Boyle, as the lead person from the faculty on the project to re-integrate the Extension faculty into the Madison campus and other campuses. In response to a question, HM explained that since the creation of the UW System, Extension – with the exception of CALS – had hired faculty who had no relationship to UW, and some people on the Madison campus became concerned that UW-Madison had lost its outreach arm. HM felt that there was a growing concern that Madison was losing this aspect of its Land Grant mission, and the movement, supported by the Regents, began to merge as many Extension faculty as possible into closer “harmony” with the Madison campus.

01:26:26	Question: The movement began at the Regents level? Answer: HM recalled that the push started under UW Chancellor Irv Shain, but he thought the movement really started with the Board of Visitors. The Board of Regents established PAGE (President’s Advisory Group on Extension), who investigated the idea of re-integrating Extension faculty into UW campuses, primarily Madison with a few in Milwaukee.  HM noted that the 72 county agents remained county agents and that their positions were not changed to report to UW-Madison. He recalled that the process was long and drawn-out with multiple sets of negotiations among the various stakeholders. In addition to serving on the PAGE committee, HM was a member of the joint committee set up between Extension and Madison to manage the transition. He talked about the work of the two committees and remembered working closely with Joe Corry from Chancellor’s Shain office.  In response to a question, HM thought that is was a very rewarding experience. 

01:35:12	Question: Was there much resistance from the UW-Madison campus? Answer: HM felt that there had been some pockets of resistance to the re-integration but that most people welcomed it.  In response to a question, HM said that PAGE worked for about two years until 1983 or 1984, and he recalled that their recommendation was to move forward with the re-integration but to ensure that faculty and academic staff subject to the process did not lose any seniority or other accumulated rights. He remembered that the big issue was sorting out the funding, and he said that the individual campuses, with System oversight, handled the process, and, in July 1985, the official integration took place.

01:41:32	Question: Was it contentious in the UW-Madison faculty senate? Answer: HM did not remember much contention in the faculty  senate, but he said there had been controversies at several other levels beforehand. He said that the change was very uncontroversial in the Ag School. The UW-Extension Department of Engineering and Professional Development became a department in the College of Engineering, as did Extension Pharmacy. Several Extension departments – including Nursing, Medicine, Library and Information Science – that did not move stayed within the Division of University Outreach, headed by Bryant Kearl. Many of these departments eventually moved into campus departments. HM became the second Dean of University Outreach (DUO) in 1987, and he worked to continue the re-integration process.

01:45:02	Question: Was Chancellor Donna Shalala supportive of your work? Answer: HM said that she was very supportive, and he talked about working closely with several people on campus, including Peg Geisler and Jim Churchill. Peg Geisler succeeded Joe Corry at the Office of Outreach and Development, and, in 2000, Chancellor John Wiley asked HM’s department to absorb that office. Earlier, HM’s DUO had taken over responsibility for the Summer Session and Intercollege Programs.  In 1987, DUO assumed the responsibility for publicizing and marketing for all outreach programs on campus.  He also brought in Adult Career and Educational Counseling and merged that with Special and Guest Student Services to create Adult and Student Services, so that there was one central office for students outside the realm of traditional undergraduate education.

01:1:52	Question: This sounds like a huge undertaking? Answer: HM felt that it kept him working, because he always wanted a new challenge. He noted that, for the most part, his programs were revenue driven and not dependent on state aid, so he had to be more flexible and had a different experience than most other Deans on campus. He talked about on project based around the Wisconsin Idea that DUO developed, and he discussed the opportunities that summer session offered traditional and no-traditional students.  HM said that summer session was his favorite part of the position.

01:57:28	Question: Are you confident that the quality of instruction during Summer Session is as good as during the academic year? Answer: HM explained that that was one of the guiding principles from the very beginning of UW’s summer program. He said that they maintained the same level of pay for summer classes and encouraged faculty participation.  In response to a question, he observed that it was not difficult to recruit faculty for the summer. He discussed some of the history of summer session at UW and around the country, and he felt UW has one of the largest and best programs in the country.

02:02:58	Question: Can you identify your major successes and major problems? Answer: HM thought that the merging of what had been five distinct academic units under the auspices of DUO was an important success. He felt that one of his most rewarding successes was designing outreach course for credit for nontraditional students. He enjoyed working with schools and departments to design appropriate classes.

02:07:022	No question: HM said that the biggest disappointment in his career was being unable to bring about a closer affiliation between some of the Outreach faculty and staff and some of the resident departments. In response to a question, he explained that some departments were not as accepting of outsiders and that some Outreach faculty did not have the same types of academic credentials. He felt that some UW faculty did not appreciate the value of outside experiences.

02:11:28	Question: The University had often been grounded in support for UW-Madison? Answer: HM thought that was true, but he emphasized that the re-integration occurred, because many Madison people felt UW was not carrying out its whole mission. He thought that some parts of the campus had lost that tradition of outreach.

02:23:22	Question: What is the condition of UW-Extension today? Answer: HM said that it was the third largest institution in the UW System, and he explained that all 700-800 county agents are now tied to UW campuses. He thought that it has become an important arm of the UW System. In response to a question, HM thought that the future of Extension was secure.

02:15:26	End of First Interview Session.

Second Interview Session (January 28, 2009): Digital File
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:23	Question: Could you lay out the distinction between Extension and Continuing Studies? Answer: HM explained that starting in the early part of the twentieth century, UW-Madison, to support the Wisconsin Idea, began an Extension division that was regarded as one of the best in the country. He talked about the history of Extension and described the founding of the UW-Centers – now UW-Colleges. In the 1960s, the division changed to University Extension and received it own chancellor, making it a separate entity from UW-Madison. Extension remained independent until the 1980s. As a result of losing Extension, the Madison campus was unable to fulfill the outreach part of its mission as a land grant university. With encouragement from the Board of Visitors, HM explained, agreement was reached to re-integrate Extension and its faculty back into UW-Madison, with a few people joining the faculty at UW-Milwaukee.

00:09:24	Question: Was this a big development? Answer: HM thought so, particularly because it brought more people into contact with the research base of the campus. He though that some of the financial issues were controversial. After the re-integration many campus faculty were unaware that their peers in Extension in disciplines like languages, the social sciences, and the humanities, had had income responsibility and had had to be self-funding when UW-Extension was a separate entity.

00:12:09:	No Question: HM said that before the re-integration in 1985, UW-Madison had created a Division of University Outreach (DUO) that was the precursor to the Division of Continuing Studies. DUO was responsible for managing the re-integration of UW-Extension. In addition, DUO was charged with carrying out the continuing education and the public service of UW-Madison to non-traditional students. In response to a question, HM thought that this was a good thing and observed that the process is still continuing 20 years later. He thought it was important that all parts of the Madison campus recognize the importance of their outreach function.

00:16:18	Question: Does this mean, for example, that in the Department of German there are now people in the Department fulfilling the extension role? Answer: HM explained there might not be someone based in the Department, but he said the outreach manifests itself through the Max Kade Institute. He noted that in other Departments, like Nursing, LIS, Engineering, faculty within the department had outreach responsibilities.

00:18:05	Question: Did your tenure home transfer to the German Department after 1985? Answer: HM said that it did not. He was among a very small group of people whose tenure home did not move into departments. In response to a question, he explained that after 1985, he became the Chair of the Liberal Studies Department at UW-Madison, whose main responsibilities included offering evening classes in languages and the humanities. HM’s office during these years was in Lowell Hall on Langdon. In response to a question, he said that in 1987 he was named Dean of the Division of University Outreach.

00:22:32	Question: How did you become Dean? Were you asked to serve? Answer: HM recalled that he had not aspired to an administrative position, but he was nominated for the position and went through the interview process. He noted that he initially worked under interim Chancellor Bernie Cohen and that Donny Shalala arrived soon after he started.

00:25:42	Question: What did you think of Donna Shalala? Answer: HM observed that they were both new to their positions, and he said that, in his experience, none of the Chancellors interfered much if they thought you were doing a good job. HM recalled only a few one-on-one meetings with Shalala, but he remembered that she would ask for his input on issues that affected DUO.  In response to a question, he thought she was supportive of the concept of outreach. He said that all of the chancellors under whom he worked – Shalala, Ward, and Wiley – gave him free rein.

00:29:06	Question: When you take over as Dean in 1987, what are the biggest problems or challenges? Answer: HM said that the biggest challenge was the ongoing re-integration of faculty and staff from Extension. He also recalled that encouraging nontraditional instruction was often difficult and that, in general, the re-integration was easier in the professional schools than in the traditional humanities and social sciences. In response to a question, HM explained that the academic credentials and experiences of the former Extension people were different from the faculty on the Madison campus. 

00:33:34	Question: Any specific Departments that you remember as particularly easy or difficult? Answer: HM said that the re-integration went well in English and in History. He thought that there was minimal success in most foreign languages. He observed that the financial difficulties of the university impeded some of his work, but he was proud to say that, in 2008, when he retired, the Continuing Education budget across the entire campus was in good shape.

00:36:48	Question: Did you work closely with the Dean of Letters and Sciences? Answer: HM did not work closely with the Deans of the schools and colleges, but he was sure they were involved. HM remembered working closely with the Chancellor of UW-Extension and Joe Corry and Bryant Kearl, who represented UW-Madison Chancellor Irv Shain. HM talked about working with several committees related to the re-integration. After he was appointed Dean, he collaborated with the Dean of L&S to bring about further integration.

00:39:09	Question; When does your division become known as “Continuing Studies?” Answer: HM recalled that in the early 1990s, Chancellor David Ward asked if he would be willing to assume responsibilities for the Division of University Summer Session and Intercollege programs after the retirement of Dean Harlan Samson. At the time, he was a half-time Dean in DUO and half-time teaching, and he “jumped at the opportunity.” He had received overtures from other schools, and he had always been interested in the summer session, so he was excited by the new challenge. In the summer of 1993, HM became the Dean of the Division of University Outreach and the Division of Summer Session and Intercollege Programs, which soon after changed its name to the simpler Division of Continuing Studies.

00:44:18	Question: What issues did you deal with when you became responsible for the summer session? Answer: HM did not remember any major issues, aside from dealing with budget cuts. He felt that his job was to maintain the quality of the summer session, and he thought his 15 years in charge of the summer session “was one of his greatest rewards.”  He talked about working with different departments, schools, and college, to manage the summer session, which he called “one of the soundest and most curricularly balanced... in North America.” 

00:47:30	Question: Did you have trouble recruiting faculty to teach in the summer? Answer: HM explained that the goal of the summer session was to have the makeup of the instructional staff mirror as closely as possible the makeup of the UW-Madison’s academic year instructional staff. The pay was good and contributed to retirement, so HM did not recall much difficulty in finding instructors. In response to a question, he explained that, although the majority of summer students were undergraduates, 20% of the students came from outside the campus or were in special groups. Most courses fit the four-week or eight-week session, but HM worked with other programs – like intensive language instruction or the Advanced Placement Institute for high school teachers - that had different needs or requirements. In response to a question, he talked about the Music Clinic, which eventually came under the purview of the Summer Session.

00:53:58	Question: Is the quality of instruction in four-week sessions generally equivalent to a regular semester? Answer: HM noted that this question “has been debated for a century.” He talked about the relevant scholarly literature about studies he had conducted on the issue. He explained that UW-Madison was “conservative” in giving out more than one credit per week and about the number of summer classes it allowed students to take. He felt that, in his experience, and in the applicable research that student performance and retention was the same as – if not better than – during the regular academic year. He talked about some of the different types of classes and their requirements.

01:02:08	Question: What is the future of summer session? Answer: HM hoped that UW-Madison would stay with the current model, which has been successful for several decades. He noted that other universities only offered summer classes that turned a profit, and he hoped UW would not follow that model.

01:04:18	Question: How easy is it for students from another school to enroll in summer classes? Answer: HM thought that, as long as a student was not going to matriculate, it was not very difficult to take classes to satisfy degree requirements elsewhere. He recalled that the Adult Counseling Career and Education Center was merged with the Division of Continuing Studies to make outreach to nontraditional students more efficient.

01:07:58	Question: What was your relationship as Dean of Continuing Studies to the other four-year campuses? Answer: HM talked about the system-wide Continuing Education Council, which met on a regular basis.

01:10:08	Question: Can you talk about the issue of distance learning and its strengths and weaknesses? Answer: HM observed that UW has a long tradition of distance education dating back to correspondence courses and radio instruction. The United States Armed Forces Institute partnered with UW to provide those services all over the world.  After WW2, HM said that the Extension Division became involved with educational telephone and developed slow-scan TV courses for engineering and other fields. HM thought that distance education had a proud tradition on campus and that online education was helping to serve this cause. In response to a question, HM said that the WHA public television station offers course over the air, but students need to enroll to get credit. He explained that students could enroll through UW –Extension or UW-Madison, and he thought the opportunities for e-learning were increasing throughout the state.

01:19:22	Question: Do you think that the UW sometimes do not get credit from the state legislature for the Extension and outreach opportunities it offers? Answer: HM said that there is plenty of information available, and that more than 130,000 students are reached each year. He felt that most of the criticism endured by UW related to the undergraduate population. He did not think that, outside of Madison, people in the state differentiated between UW-Extension and UW-Madison.

01:24:16	Question: You were beginning to address the fundamental issues as you see it at the University?  Answer: HM thought that there had been a growing concern that UW-Madison was becoming “university-centric” and had lost sight of its mission as the land grant institution of the state.  For 70-90 years, he thought that the Wisconsin Idea was observed and practiced but that with the merger of the system, Madison moved towards becoming primarily a research institution.  He observed that in the last few years, there had been an interest in strengthening the campus commitment to the Wisconsin Idea, and he thought this tension between the research mission and the outreach mission would be a challenge for the University.

01:27:38	Question: Are you optimistic about the future of UW-Madison? Answer: HM said that he was optimistic. He thought it would remain the mainstay of the UW system; he thought there would be changes; and he thought that, despite financial struggles, UW-Madison would continue to be one of the world’s top universities.

01:28:52	End of Second Interview Session.

End of Oral History #1028