UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #314
JOHN D. FERRY

FERRY, John D.  (1912-2002)
Professor of Chemistry
At UW: 1946-82

Interviewed: 1985	
Length: 5 hours, 9 minutes	
Transcript: 67 pages
Interviewer:  Laura Smail

Background; Dawson, Yukon; Yukon Gold (1971); mining; Stanford University; James William McBain; National Institute for Medical Research in London, England; Sir MacFarlane Burnet; George Parks; David Spence; Research work at Harvard; Edwin Cohn; J. L. Oncley; L. J. Henderson; Jack Williams; Farrington Daniels; War work; Appointment at UW; Chemistry Department; Edwin Fitzgerald; Williams-Landel-Ferry (WLF) equation; Chemistry Building; Chairmanship; Irving Shain; Research.

First Interview Session (October 25, 1985): Digital File [Tape 1]
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 1/Side 1]

00:01:04	Parents' background and education.  Early childhood in Dawson, Yukon. His mother’s recollections of their life there in Yukon Gold. Mining operations.

00:09:50	His family’s departure from Yukon during WWI and decision not to return. His father’s changes of profession and work in California, Idaho. Siblings. 

00:11:35	Teaching himself to read and write. Favorite reading was Jungle Book and children’s magazine John Martin’s Book. Advice about reading.

00:12:48	Move to Murray, Idaho. Its isolation. His father’s college education and work. Stories from the mining operation and cleanup. His mother’s life and work.

00:17:41	Elementary and high school education. Interests in hiking, mining, reading and social isolation (he wasn’t good at sports). Attending 3 high schools in 3 states.

00:23:55	Beginning of interest in chemistry and other sciences, especially astronomy. Teaching himself Latin.  Explains how he got interested in chemistry and did his own experiments.

00:29:40	[end side 1/begin side 2] Reasons science appealed to him.  Breaking his arm severely and going through therapy in Spokane WA. Getting interested in technical operations.

00:32:39	Working with his father after graduation from high school.  Learning German and a little Russian.  

00:34:40	Getting into Stanford. High school math training. Predicting the 1929 eclipse.

00:38:12	Reasons for majoring in chemistry rather than engineering. Other courses like German and linguistics. Early graduation and friends. 

00:42:20	Didn’t have life-changing teachers at Stanford, though he had some interesting courses outside of science.

00:43:55	The opportunity to go to the National Institute for Medical Research in London. Though not interested in membrane filtration, he wanted to go to Europe. Experiences there. Having no regrets. 

00:50:31	Reflections on the scientific atmosphere at NIMR; white coats v. brown coats.

00:54:00	Duties at the National Institute for Medical Research—teaching membrane filtration to people from all over the world. Publishing papers with MacFarlane Burnet

00:56:52	End of First Interview Session  [end tape 1]

Second Interview Session (October 29, 1985): Digital File [Tapes 2-3]
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin tape 2/side 1]

00:00:09	Small size of science community in England and chance to see famous scientists

00:01:54	Life in London and travel on the continent. Treatment of students in those days.

00:05:04	Return to the US. How he discharged his responsibility to the Rockefeller Foundation

00:06:27	Decision to go to Stanford graduate school instead of Cal Tech or Princeton. 

00:08:01	Working with George Parks on his dissertation project—investigating visco- elasticity using polyisobutylene to see if it would form a glass. Viscoelasticity to become central to his life’s work. The influence of close friend Monroe Spaight. Explains details about measuring temperature and viscosity.

00:15:56	His feelings about the research and the effect of being steered into this issue by Parks. 

00:19:12	Discusses people he might have worked with had he attended Cal Tech or Princeton. 

00:22:55	The two landmark papers resulting from his dissertation research.  

00:23:32	Writing up research and JF’s views of writing and teaching students to write. His enjoyment of writing.

00:27:19	Work habits formed as graduate student, especially regarding measurement. 

00:30:44	[end side 1;begin side 2] Graduating and getting a job in the depths of the Depression. Unable to find academic job, finds work with David Spence at Goodrich Company. 

00:33:57	Experimental work on rubber in 1935 with David Spence. His feelings about the research and Spence. Social life in Monterey.

00:38:56	Inquiring about a position as a tutor at Harvard.  Tutorial system and his job.  Abbot Lawrence Lowell.  

00:43:51	A part-time research appointment in Biochemical Sciences program.  Research appointment in Department of Physical Chemistry in medical school.  Cohn.  His talents and why he was interested in Ferry. The reputation of Ferry’s dissertation.

00:50:41	Work with J. L. Oncley's apparatus (Ph.D. of Jack Williams; on M.I.T. faculty).

00:53:23	Intellectual stimulation of Harvard. Reputation of Stanford and Berkeley compared. 

00:55:01	Work on dielectric properties of proteins. Cohn’s work to establish a Society of Fellows on the model of the British system, and his nomination for it. [end tape 2; begin tape 3] More on Walt Henderson.  The purpose of the Society.  Requirements for fellows.

01:04:23	Return to viscoelasticity experiments.  Techniques developed.  Work on propagation of waves.  Use of polystyrene.

01:09:11	Invitation to Stanford and reasons for rejecting.

01:11:06	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session (October 30, 1985): Digital File [Tape 3; side b]
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin tape 3/side 2 continued]

00:00:10	More on Society of Fellows. JF’s feelings about working there, why he was recruited.

00:03:58	The excitement of following up his PhD research on polymers.  The applications of his work later on. 

00:08:06	Influence of Harvard personalities on the scientific approach. L. J. Henderson on the dependence of variables and a theory of need for scientific conceptual schemes.  JF's wish to have his conceptual scheme accepted.

00:14:01	The pioneer work in polymers by Paul J. Flory in early 1940s and its encouragement and influence on Ferry.

00:16:24	NCS meetings.  Opportunities to meet famous scientists at Cohn's house. 

00:18:32	Impact of WWII on Ferry. More on Cohn and his student John T. Edsall. [end side 1; begin side 2]

00:21:10	Fellowship at Harvard ends; Cohn introduces Ferry to A. Redfield working at Woods Hole on anti-fouling paint for seaplanes and ships during WWII. 

00:24:50	Cohn’s reputation hurts Ferry’s chances of getting a department appointment. Anti-Semitism at Harvard; Cohn’s style of leadership and treatment of younger Jews in his lab. More on his and Cohn’s disagreements.

00:28:39	Lack of interest in polymers in chemistry departments made it difficult to get position.

00:30:07	Work at Woods’ Hole. Publication of papers and reception of them.

00:35:22	The blood plasma work at Harvard in Cohn's lab. He explains the wartime context to this research.

00:39:35	Ferry’s role in developing uses for fibrinogen. Suggestion that it be used to treat burns. The excitement in the Cohn lab during WWII.

00:46:07	Question about the “eureka moment.” Ferry describes the real use for fibrin, to be used in brain surgery—the necessity for sterilization.

00:50:08	End of Third Interview Session

Fourth Interview Session (October 31, 1985): Digital File [Tape 4]
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin tape 2/side 1]

00:00:04	Meetings with Hermann Mark, and polymer research at Polytechnic Institute, Brooklyn.  His work on plastics for military.  Meeting others in early polymer research.

00:04:08	Marriage to Barbara Mott, whom he met at Woods’ Hole.

00:05:21	Job situation didn’t look promising after war, but JF felt that he needed a stable salary and started to look for teaching position.

00:07:18	Ferry’s acquaintance with UW’s Jack Williams through their collaboration in Boston. Use of Svedburg ultra-centrifuge apparatus at UW for Harvard program. Jack Williams work at Harvard and his reputation.  

00:11:09	Oncley’s important role in plasma fractionation and comparison of his work with Williams' research. More on Cohn’s skullduggery.

00:14:44	Williams’ invitation for JF to come to UW. The interview process with Homer Adkins and the offer of a job. Advice from colleagues not to accept.

00:20:24	Arrival in Madison; first impressions. His wife’s reaction to moving. Excellent students after WWII.

00:24:51	Early research at UW—Mathews desire for him to parallel but be independent from Williams’ protein chemistry research. Context to protein research.

00:28:00	Influence of major figures in chemistry department. Adkins, Mathews, Daniels, Williams. [end side 1; begin side 2]

00:32:22	Williams’ grants from Rockefeller to build the ultracentrifuge; debates over whether to accept grant. More of JF’s thoughts on Williams.

00:37:45	Farrington Daniels--Williams’ bitterness toward him, his autocratic chairmanship.

00:42:34	Departmental climate; the division between organic chemistry and the rest of the department; the quality of support services; good relationship with the Graduate School and L&S. Robert Doremus

00:49:29	The breakthrough on viscoelasticity of polymers made possible by research done by Fitzgerald's on an instrument that led to WLF equation, which was JF's most important contribution.

00:58:34	JF’s role in the building of the Fitzgerald instrument.

01:02:49	End of Fourth Interview Session

Fifth Interview Session (November 1, 1985): Digital File (tape 5-6)
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 5/Side 1]

00:00:09	Importance of optimism in research.  Application in teaching.

00:01:56	Narrowing of his interests to viscoelasticity and polymerization of fibrin.

00:03:14	J.H. Mathews’ chairmanship of chemistry department, on which he focused (rather than teaching). His role in constructing a new chemistry building, and worries about the old one.

00:07:00	Daniels’ chairmanship. The need for expanding the building and constructing on the south side of University Avenue. Daniels’ fundraising.

00:09:39	Ferry chosen to succeed Daniels as chair. Annual votes of confidence for Mathews and Daniels. Informal nature of department meetings before the 1960s. 

00:15:13	More details on JF’s chairmanship. Fundraising for second phase of building and expensive equipment. Poor quality of architectural work in new building, specifically the ventilation system, and internal disputes it caused.

00:20:23	JF’s research during chairmanship. Membership on University Committee became a chore during the turmoil of late ‘60s, so he resigned UC and the chair in 1967. Appointment of Irving Shain.  

00:23:45	Reflections on the TA Strike, 1970. Shooting of the liquid nitrogen tank.

00:28:15	First loss of a tenured department member during JF's chairmanship, when William Johnson went to Stanford, followed by others. Bringing in senior people for first time, which was a considerable drain on department resources. [end side 1; begin side 2] Many of these quality faculty didn’t stay, thus a big turnover in his chairmanship.

00:32:17	People recruited, reasons they left and where they went. One particular case objected to Hirschfelder's Institute of Theoretical Chemistry. Attitudes in the dept to ITC. But mostly other institutions could provide attractive packages.

00:37:00	JF's research practices. Do red tape immediately so there is time for the important tasks. Allowing research to develop organically rather than detailed plans.

00:39:19	Competition not a problem for him—interest in his work didn’t develop until later.

00:40:40	Two research goals: gather data for public record and reveal a generalization about a phenomenon. Concentrate on only one thing at a time. Mining data analytically and rigorously and constructing graphs.

00:46:22	JF’s misgivings about the widespread use of computer. How computers put barriers between the investigator and data and can hide misleading assumptions.

00:50:20	Difficulties keeping abreast of voluminous current literature. Question about computer searchability of literature.

00:52:51	Advantage of having scientific departments geographically close at UW. 

00:55:42	Value of University Club in making contacts across departments. Noonday seminars and committee meetings led to the club’s decline. No substitute exists.

00:57:24	How JF writes up research, from beginning to end. Annual reports of research.

00:59:19	Organization of time, balancing teaching and writing.

01:01:37	[end tape 5; begin Tape 6] Broader implications of research, even with breakthroughs in the field.  The “Tebalski bombshell,” which contradicted many current theories, and the theory of P.E. Rouse, 1952, which had become fundamental to polymer work.

01:06:17	Current research, but without graduate students. Postdoctoral collaborators.

01:08:25	End of Fifth Interview Session.

End of Oral History #314