UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1292
HATHEWAY, JOSEPH “JAY”

HATHEWAY, JOSEPH “JAY” (1949-)
Graduate Student in History; Professor of History at Edgewood College in Madison 
At UW-Madison: 1979-1992

Interviewed: 	2012 (3 sessions)
Interviewer: 	Troy Reeves
Index by: 	Troy Reeves
Length: 	2 hours, 27 minutes 
Series:		Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to Present

Abstract: In his three 2012 interviews with Troy Reeves, Jay Hatheway talked primarily about his introduction to both UW-Madison & Edgewood College, focusing on his  involvement in LGBT issues in Madison and elsewhere in Wisconsin. He discussed the following decades: 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s; and the following topics: UW-Madison History Department, George Mosse, Robert Koehl, Schutzstaffel (or SS), Teaching Assistants’ Association, The United, Among Friends (1980s LGBT non-profit group, founded and ran by Hatheway), Hotel Washington (Madison, WI), ROTC at UW-Madison, Edgewood College (Madison, WI), Tammy Baldwin, David Runyon.  

Key Words: UW-Madison; Department of History; Robert Koehl; George Mosse; Teaching Assistants’ Association (TAA); German history; Schutzstaffel (SS); LGBT activism; Rodney Scheel; Rod’s Bar; The Hotel Washington; Out; The United; Among Friends; ROTC; Tammy Baldwin; Tommy Thompson; David Runyon; AIDS Network; Edgewood College; Stoughton, WI; Governor’s Task Force on HIV & AIDS; Gannett Newspapers; Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. 

First Interview Session (September 14, 2012): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction. 

00:00:31	Question: Why UW-Madison? Answer: Jay Hatheway (JH) was in graduate school in Monterrey, CA. He had interest in German history, specifically the Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS), so he wrote George Mosse, asking about how to get into the Ph.D. program at UW-Madison. Mosse sent him an application. When JH arrived, he worked with Robert Koehl, whose specialty lined up with JH’s interests. JH also provided a larger context; he was in Monterrey because his military career had ended because of a court-martial. He spoke about the appeal process following the court-martial, particularly how long it took for it to reach a conclusion. 

00:04:48	Question: Did JH have any contacts in Madison’s LGBT community before arriving? Answer: JH said, “none whasoever.” Within days of arriving in July 1979, he went to Rod’s (within the Hotel Washington). He talked to the bar’s clientele to learn about the gay community. From those conservations he learned about the gay newspaper, Out, and The United, a community organization. JH eventually worked for both. 

00:08:04	Question: Who were JH’s first friends in Madison? Answer: JH mentioned two people, John Neess (Professor in Zoology Department) & Tony Mason (member of The United’s board of directors). During these early years at UW-Madison, JH met Tammy Baldwin, then a graduate student in the Law School; they occasionally presented together at the same meetings. JH also mentioned David Runyon, whom JH called his cheerleader. 

00:11:40	Question: Involved in the 1982 non-discrimination legislation? Answer: JH noted David Clarenbach and others, not JH, pushed that law through. Asked a follow-up question about a grant won by The United, JH said it supported his paid position for two years; this project led JH to meet Kathleen Nichols. JH spoke briefly about another project aimed at teaching high school counselors who assisted secondary school kids in dealing with gay and lesbian issues.  

00:14:30	Question: How did JH feel, academically, in his early days and months at UW-Madison? Answer: JH felt a little underprepared and taken aback about the grades and the graduate students’ attitudes. JH was older than most of his cohort; he leaned more on Mosse & Koehl for advice and support. Once JH learned from his mentors and understood the process more, he thrived. He became a TA and passed his written exams & language qualifications. JH spoke about being a TA and how it helped him with out-of-state tuition. 

00:17:48	[No question.] JH listed the three professors who influenced him the most: Mosse, Koehl, and Harvey Goldberg. They helped him both in teaching him and in “being a historian.” He explained that the latter meant in terms of historiography, contextuality, and methodology. Later, these approaches came back to haunt him in one of his books. JH talked in depth about one bad experience, a class taught in Latin. The entire process, both the good and bad, allowed him to grow intellectually.  

00:20:48	Question: Schutzstaffel (or SS) as JH’s dissertation topic? Answer: JH talked about the “difficult” process of putting together his 400-page dissertation. JH noted he started with an SS and sports theme, but the lack of documents moved him towards SS and perfection a few years into his UW-Madison graduate career. Asked about research, JH said that during graduate school he conducted all his work at UW-Madison. He noted, however, that while in Germany during his military career he conducted a lot of research that he used toward his MA at Monterrey, as well as his dissertation. He had met many former SS officers while in Bad Tolz, Bavaria; one man, a former SS commandant named Richard Schulze-Kossens, guided JH’s work in many ways.  

00:26:25	Question: How did JH get to know Schulze-Kossens? Answer: JH met him during his time in the military overseas. JH explained why Bad Tolz served as a home to former SS and how JH “stumbled” onto the SS bar. He then offered a history of Schulze-Kossens’ life, including his ties to Adolf Hilter and his leadership in the SS veterans group, and the story of JH’s interaction with other SS during his time in the bar and the town. JH shared a few brief anecdotes, including the fact that Schulze-Kossens continued to send him material during JH’s early years at UW-Madison.

00:33:03	Question: JH’s involvement in Teaching Assistants’ Association (TAA), starting with the 1980 strike? Answer: JH was not a TA in 1980; he was too busy to understand the issues and did not participate. By 1982, Koehl advised JH to consider the TAA. JH decided the pros (salary, health care, teaching experience) outweighed any cons. Plus, JH spoke of the prestige of being a TA on campus in the early 1980s. JH talked about “Harrison Points” (qualifications for TAships) as well as GPA rankings. 

00:36:48	[No question.] JH talked about his TA experience. He quickly learned the lack of glamour in the job and the humility it required. JH remained a TA until the then Dean of the Graduate School tried to force him out due to his work on LGBT issues. The TAA threatened to sue and the Dean withdrew his threat. When asked about teaching, JH said he learned a lot, especially how to admit not knowing something. He liked the give and take between himself and the students. JH noted how some professors at his previous schools (and Mosse at UW-Madison) were treated as gods. When asked about other TAs during this time, JH said he befriended none of them; his conversations with other TAs always centered on professional matters. Koehl, his mentor, taught him the most in regards to being a TA.

00:44:04	Question: Final thoughts? Answer: JH concluded by telling the interviewer about two major events that affected his early years: the death of his mother and his own excessive drinking. He realized in hindsight that the latter stemmed in part from the court-martial and resultant appeals process.

00:47:40	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (September 14, 2012): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction. 

00:00:29	Question: More memories about the early 1980s (1982-84)? Answer: Jay Hatheway (JH) answered this question with a brief overview of a statewide group he created, Among Friends, which helped him through this period in his life. These three years affected JH adversely; Among Friends and returning in earnest to his graduate work helped him return to normalcy after this period, too.

00:02:49	Question: Mid-life crisis? Answer: The interviewer used the term, mid-life crisis, to describe the period. JH said he felt it stemmed from the “hangover” of his court martial more than anything else. He talked about some negative aspects of this period (1982-1984), including ending a relationship and losing a house. 

00:04:38	Question: When JH returned to Madison, who did he meet or re-connect with? Answer: JH mentioned three people, including two of whom he mentioned as friends through The United. He also became involved in the newspaper, Out, and enjoyed going to the Shamrock Bar. He noted he started to go there initially to help develop revenue for Out. At this time, mid-1980s, JH also volunteered for the Madison AIDS Network; on this topic JH recalled that Rodney Scheel offered free space inside the Hotel Washington for the AIDS Network to meet.

00:07:20	Question: JH’s involvement in Madison AIDS Network or his personal knowledge of those affected by AIDS? Answer: While JH did not recall immediately his work for the Network, he said his involvement stemmed from having friends and lovers die from AIDS. He worked with Ken Maley on the Wisconsin’s part of the national AIDS quilt. JH recalled a trip to Oregon to visit his brother and tour Portland; he gained insight on AIDS work in Oregon from that trip. JH probably helped the Network through ad sales. From this work, JH saw the need for support of rural gays/lesbians. His work led the Department of Public Health to call and ask for his help to identify rural homosexuals that could be eligible for state support. 

00:11:09	Question: Why did JH start the group, Among Friends? Answer: Among Friends grew out of JH’s Madison experience. At Rod’s bar, he would chat with the clientele, many of whom drove there from a great distance because their rural communities lacked a place for them. JH also read the gay newspapers in Madison and Milwaukee and noted the lack of meeting places for rural gays and lesbians. He wanted to create a resource guide for those people and eventually sent this resource to rural health entities to help them with their work. Later, he started to send out a newsletter. All this became part of Among Friends, a group designed to link gays/lesbians to wider organizations and to each other. The group lasted about five or six years (1985-1990). JH’s job at Edgewood in the early 1990s was a large factor in closing up shop. 

00:16:34	Question: Gay bars or gay-friendly places in Madison (in 1980s)? Answer: JH listed three bars: Shamrock, Rod’s, and Going My Way. He recalled one other bar which was on the current Overture Center footprint. He mentioned that Rodney Scheel’s first bar was on current UW-Madison property. He also recalled the Cardinal Bar as gay-friendly, but he hung out there rarely and explained why. 

00:19:33	Question: JH’s interaction with lesbian community? Answer: JH gave talks at Lysistrata as a member of the gay, academic community. He also mentioned two women who worked at The United while he volunteered and worked there. He did not see many specific women in the community putting themselves out publicly. This led JH to talk about the layout of the Hotel Washington and the spaces where different types of people hung out. 

00:22:05	Question: Did JH co-present with any lesbians? Answer: For a three-year period, JH presented with Tammy Baldwin, then a student at UW-Madison’s Law School. This fact led JH to offer a brief overview of the ROTC issue that engulfed UW-Madison’s campus in the late 1980s/early 1990s. He worked with the Elders (Joe and Joann) and others and recalled the big faculty meeting at the Stock Pavilion. 

00:24:22	Question: Hotel Washington fire? Answer: By the time the Hotel Washington burned down, JH had moved to Stoughton, his current residence. He called the event a great loss, because it removed a meeting place for a wide swath of people, gay and straight. JH recalled meeting most of the prominent gay men in town at Rod’s first.  

00:26:39	Question: JH’s involvement with campus ROTC issues (late 1980s/early 1990s)? Answer: JH participated mainly in an advisory role, because people like Joe Elder knew his previous military history. JH furnished an overview of some of the key events, including Chancellor Shalala’s decision to override the faculty vote and keep ROTC on campus. 

00:31:00	Question: JH’s route to Edgewood College? Answer: JH talked here about his partner, Jim, including a bit about their courting process. Jim earned a job at Edgewood in 1988; Jim’s connections helped JH apply for a job. JH then told the story of his initial job at Edgewood in political philosophy, which led to a teaching position in American foreign policy and later a tenure-track position in history. 

00:36:05	Question: More about Edgewood, including being hired without a Ph.D. and issues (if any) about his sexual orientation? Answer: JH talked more about working at Edgewood and noted some tension around being hired without a Ph.D.; this focused him on completing his dissertation. He said he did not face issues around his sexual orientation during the hiring process. The Sisters who interviewed him supported his orientation. He never hid it, and the administration’s acceptance of him made him want to work at Edgewood even more. JH talked a bit more about his time at Edgewood, including his rise to history department chair as a junior faculty member. 

00:39:24	Question: Why move out to Stoughton? Answer: Moving to Stoughton in the late 1980s was an economic decision. He and Jim could not afford to buy a home in Madison. They have enjoyed living in Stoughton. JH admitted the move enabled him to take a break from Madison politics on focus on teaching and service at Edgewood.  

00:42:24	Question: JH’s final thoughts? Answer: JH offered a brief list of other things that happened during this time period that he hoped to discuss more in a future interview. They included his work on the Governor’s Task Force on HIV/AIDS & the lawsuit, Among Friends v. Gannett Corporation, re: trying to get ad space in Gannett papers. Both events bore down on him and caused some tension with some gay leaders in Madison.

00:45:27	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session (October 26, 2012): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.

00:00:40	Question: 1980s Governor’s Task Force (HIV/AIDS)? Answer: Jay Hatheway (JH) noted his involvement in the task force stemmed from his leadership and work in his group, Among Friends. The network he created captured the attention of the Wisconsin Department of Health & Human Services. JH figured the task force’s good works overshadowed any possible ulterior motives. He felt it medicalized (but did not stigmatize) HIV & AIDS, allowed people a place to openly discuss the epidemic, and served as the state’s first attempt to address the issue with public policy. 

00:04:43	Question: Did JH increase his list of advocates from his time on the task force? Answer: Yes, although JH learned about the new group of advocates only after he shuttered Among Friends to focus on his academic career. He shared a few brief anecdotes in this regard, including being approached to appear on the “Phil Donahue Show,” which flattered JH even though he never appeared on the TV program. 

00:06:55	Question: Among Friends v. Gannett Newspapers, Inc.? Answer: JH, through Among Friends, wanted to place a small advertisement in the state’s newspapers. The papers owned by Gannett denied his request; he found out that they assumed the group was a front for gay porn and/or prostitution. JH detailed the resultant lawsuit, including his allies—such as Tammy Baldwin, Gannett’s counter-argument, and the suit’s outcome, which included modification of the state’s non-discrimination legislation to grant an exemption to newspapers.

00:13:02	Question: Compare this lawsuit to his court-martial? Answer: JH felt his court-marital and his treatment while attending the Monterrey Institute only channeled his energy into fighting discrimination at virtually any cost, meaning it drove him to sue Gannett, even though it became apparent early on that they would not win. 

00:16:34	Question: 2012 U.S. Senate race (Baldwin v. Thompson)? Answer: JH offered his opinions first on Governor Thompson; JH saw him as well intentioned with a neutral attitude towards LGBT issues. As Governor, Thompson appeared to JH as an Eisenhower Moderate (Republican). Reflecting on Congresswoman Baldwin, JH noted that although they often crossed paths, he did not consider her a close friend. He mentioned several times in the 1980s that Baldwin helped JH in his activism. 

00:21:01	Question: Edgewood College (social justice/LGBT activism)? Answer: JH saw his hiring at Edgewood as “a fork in the road.” He chose to channel his activism into academia at Edgewood and away from city or state politics. He ended Among Friends and got assurance from the leadership at Edgewood that his sexuality and activism would not ruffle feathers. JH described several ways he participated in social justice issues at Edgewood, including directing a small human issues program and getting the college to add non-discriminatory language into faculty and student documents. 

00:24:40	[No question.] JH served as faculty founder and chair of the student LGBT group (Friends Like Us). JH found out from Joann Elder that by the early 1990s, Edgewood LGBT activism led UW-Madison’s. He concluded with an anecdote about how gay men faced discrimination in the 1990s in dormitory housing and how by 2012 LGBT activism had become into Edgewood’s campus policy fabric.

00:27:28	Question: JH’s publications, starting with The Gilded Age Construction of American Homophobia? Answer: JH offered the book’s thesis, its overview, and the reason he chose to write it. He then furnished more depth about the book’s content, including its key arguments, including issues of class and society. 

00:33:40	Question: Criticisms of the book? Answer: JH felt the criticism fell into three primary categories: over-contextualization, inadequate understanding of homosexuality’s history, and too many extended quotations. JH tried to rebut each of these concerns. 

00:36:34	Question: JH’s other major publications? Answer: JH talked about the memoir on his court-martial and the path to its publication, including the process of getting court transcripts through Congresswoman Baldwin’s office. He noted that it sold a few thousand copies and he still received occasional (miniscule) royalties from it. 

00:40:30	[No question.] JH offered an overview of his other publication, which focused on the ideology of the Schutzstaffel (or SS), the German military group of WWII. He explained why this work underpinned all of his work on non-discrimination and social justice. He also reminded the interviewer that his SS research also became his doctoral dissertation on the SS and perfection. 

00:43:26	Question: Don’t Ask Don’t Tell? Answer: JH figured it would be rescinded at some point and noted feeling gratification when it was. However he tempered that remark with a comment on his criticism of American Foreign Policy and its treatment of American soldiers.  While he felt anyone should possess the right to join any branch of the military, he cautioned students about joining and advised them to learn about U.S. foreign policy history.  

00:48:49	Question: Final thoughts? Answer: First, JH wanted to talk about David Runyon, who one of JH’s confidantes, as well as a good friend. Runyon would drive out to Stoughton to interview JH at length for his public access cable show, “Nothing to Hide.” JH concluded with some thoughts about current events, mentioning that his teaching method reflected social justice issues and his hope for gay marriage in Wisconsin. He felt confident that current activists would fight these battles for him. 

00:53:34	End of Third Interview Session

End of Oral History #1292